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Author Topic: A new look at an old direction in time.  (Read 8803 times)

Offline petm1

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A new look at an old direction in time.
« on: 11/11/2013 16:43:12 »
"Mass is the past" that is always relative in space because "space is the present" we all share via photons. Our memories of past events and our thoughts of the future are all in the mind of the observer.     


 

Offline woolyhead

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #1 on: 11/11/2013 18:07:07 »
"Mass is the past" and "Space is the present." How does this fit in with Einstein's relativity? Time isn't the same everywhere in spacetime. How does mass become the past? They are two different thing, aren't they?
 

Offline petm1

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #2 on: 19/11/2013 21:33:45 »
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How does mass become the past? They are two different thing, aren't they?

Past and future are the two direction of time that we see no matter which direction we look in space while thinking of ourselves as the present.  Think of all signals as being emitted in the present from some form of mass.  This make my past as being made up from the signals I have already received, memories, my present are those signals I am receiving now, sight, and my future are those signals I have yet to receive, imagination, all of these are relative to me.  Mass on the other hand is always relative in the present from the past and into the future.  My thinking is as an observer the one second frame of reference my consciousness provides to receive and then process information is anchored in the past by my body as I move into the future. 



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Time isn't the same everywhere in space/time.

Using a photon as our ruler I would think it is, it is the object with mass that changes duration according to its position and motion.

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"Mass is the past" and "Space is the present." How does this fit in with Einstein's relativity?

I would think it fits easily because the faster a massive object moves in any of the spacial directions the more space/time it occupies in the present the longer the duration between the ticks of its clock.  Our clocks count changes they do not measure the duration between these changes except when we compare them one to another.
 

Offline petm1

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #3 on: 24/11/2013 02:55:50 »
What if the math were right and big bang was a white hole?  Outward motion, all arrows going out from a point, a focal point of motion with the smallest motion as the most energetic.  How big would this focal point have to be before it broke apart into individuals focal points, must have been repulsive energy at that time. 

Today we still feel this force at the rate of 9.8 meters per second per second of out ward acceleration we call gravity. Newton saw this force as an attractive force with the apple fell from the tree to the ground, also noting that all mass fell at an equal rate.  Still holds today.

Einstein told us not only can we think of gravity this way but we can also think of it as the earth dilating out to meet the apple not as a force but a outward motion.  Maybe the skydiver has a true look at our temporal motion, an affine space of dilating matter.

The present is the edge of the universe I see from the outside only, matter, held in place by individual but continuous motion from big bang.  It is the simultaneous nature of atoms themselves as proven by gps and used as the basic time of cosmology that makes me think that atoms are not vibrating but are dilating. The dilating momentum of energy is the mass we measure and the reason that mass resists a change to its position. 

The difference between emission and reception upon reception is the space we see with the cmbr the inside of this temporal puzzle we think of as the past.  Do you think that it is paradoxical to think of the largest common denominator of all sets started the smallest while the smallest common denominator of all sets started at the largest because "time" being both, accounts for the twist between this single motion.

We count time yet measure space using a mobile ruler called a photon. We plot these images as a kaleidoscope of present moments from the past within our minds.  But make no mistake the center connection we call mass is real in time toward the past.



 
 

Offline petm1

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #4 on: 03/12/2013 22:25:02 »
The present, is it reception or emission?  Myself I think it is both in the duration of a single photon.  We like to think of it as a distance relative to a material ruler but if truth be known we only detect  the end of a photons duration never the beginning.   
 

Offline petm1

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #5 on: 11/12/2013 18:12:59 »
Why do we call it the big bang theory and not Einstein's calendar? 
 

Offline petm1

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #6 on: 14/12/2013 21:48:04 »
Mass is the past relative to the present moment we all share as space while accelerating into the future at nine point eight meters per second per second. 

 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #7 on: 14/12/2013 23:43:50 »
What if the math were right and big bang was a white hole?  Outward motion, all arrows going out from a point, a focal point of motion with the smallest motion as the most energetic.  How big would this focal point have to be before it broke apart into individuals focal points, must have been repulsive energy at that time. 

Today we still feel this force at the rate of 9.8 meters per second per second of out ward acceleration we call gravity. Newton saw this force as an attractive force with the apple fell from the tree to the ground, also noting that all mass fell at an equal rate.  Still holds today.

Einstein told us not only can we think of gravity this way but we can also think of it as the earth dilating out to meet the apple not as a force but a outward motion.  Maybe the skydiver has a true look at our temporal motion, an affine space of dilating matter.

The present is the edge of the universe I see from the outside only, matter, held in place by individual but continuous motion from big bang.  It is the simultaneous nature of atoms themselves as proven by gps and used as the basic time of cosmology that makes me think that atoms are not vibrating but are dilating. The dilating momentum of energy is the mass we measure and the reason that mass resists a change to its position. 

If I understand you correctly, are you proposing the expansion of space within the particles of matter? Whereby the collective "dilation" of matter results in the phenomenon we call gravity.

This theory has as it's major proponent; Mark McCutcheon who wrote the book titled:  Final theory

If I've interpreted your reasoning in error, please advise me of it. If you are proposing the same theory as McCutcheon, you might be advised to consider that his theory has been debunked long ago.

Like I said, if I'm misunderstanding your point here, please explain a little more precisely what you mean by; Dilating matter

Thanks.............................Ethos

« Last Edit: 14/12/2013 23:45:34 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline petm1

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #8 on: 19/12/2013 04:29:55 »
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If I understand you correctly, are you proposing the expansion of space within the particles of matter? Whereby the collective "dilation" of matter results in the phenomenon we call gravity.

If you think of an atom vibrating in space, a static variable of one, its duration is ever increasing.  I think the expansion of space includes a dilating time and yes it is the dilating momentum of matter we measure as gravity. 
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #9 on: 19/12/2013 13:03:20 »
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If I understand you correctly, are you proposing the expansion of space within the particles of matter? Whereby the collective "dilation" of matter results in the phenomenon we call gravity.

If you think of an atom vibrating in space, a static variable of one, its duration is ever increasing.  I think the expansion of space includes a dilating time and yes it is the dilating momentum of matter we measure as gravity.
Please explain to us then, the tidal forces here on earth. GR defines these as being caused by the gravitational influences between the moon and earth. If the so-called dilating momentum of matter is the cause, describe to us how this mechanism works. I think you may have a difficult time doing this my friend.
 

Offline petm1

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #10 on: 31/12/2013 05:01:25 »
You don't think that the accelerated frame we call earth should be included when describing tidal forces?   How about the accelerated fame we call the moon?  If you don't know how tidal forces on earth work then try Wikipedia it makes a nice read.

Myself I think the center connection between the masses is temporal in nature having more to do with that common point in time called big bang than the duration of a photon traveling between them in my present.  If you think of space as rigid and time as the variable, relative to the present moment, then it is easier to see that it is time that is warped in gr. 

   

 
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #11 on: 31/12/2013 17:44:37 »
You don't think that the accelerated frame we call earth should be included when describing tidal forces?   

 
I may have mislead you petm1, when I asked about tidal forces, I should have just said; How does one account for the ocean tides here on earth using your position as the cause of gravity? As I stated in my last post, a similar theory was presented by Mark McCutcheon several years ago and was summarily shot down because he couldn't explain ocean tides with his theory. Gravity is a result of space/time compression occurring around mass and not the result of an expanding or oscillating material volume.

In short; How does your theory account for the ocean tides?
« Last Edit: 31/12/2013 17:46:54 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline petm1

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #12 on: 04/01/2014 21:38:08 »
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Gravity is a result of space/time compression occurring around mass and not the result of an expanding or oscillating material volume.

When I think of the accelerated frame as a positive flow of time such as a dilating earth.  Then it is easy to see how we see the same thing as a negative motion in space, after all the two are opposites. As for the compression occurring around mass is it outward or inward?  You need both to describe tides.   

When thinking of the accelerated frames as world lines is there an increase in their volumes after all then they look like worms. I would think it is more a change in duration than volume with an increase showing itself as a slower tick rate.  More change in time and less in space or more change in space with less in time two ways to increase duration thereby slowing our clocks with a curving space/time.

 



 
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #13 on: 06/01/2014 21:34:38 »
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Gravity is a result of space/time compression occurring around mass and not the result of an expanding or oscillating material volume.

When I think of the accelerated frame as a positive flow of time such as a dilating earth.  Then it is easy to see how we see the same thing as a negative motion in space, after all the two are opposites.
 
Just how do you explain a "dilating earth"? If one assumes that the earth is dilating, why don't we see the moon and sun drawing nearer? It's difficult to understand how you could come to that conclusion.
 

Offline petm1

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #14 on: 11/01/2014 19:52:03 »
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Just how do you explain a "dilating earth"? If one assumes that the earth is dilating, why don't we see the moon and sun drawing nearer? It's difficult to understand how you could come to that conclusion.

We measure the dilating earth as a accelerated frame, in my mind, a focal point anchored in the past by our mass.  You may think of a static distance between frames myself I think of it as a variable, time. Time as in a dilating present the deeper into the well you move slowing the tick rate of clocks is why I think of this as a warping in time that I do not see in space. 

 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #15 on: 12/01/2014 03:03:55 »

 Time as in a dilating present the deeper into the well you move slowing the tick rate of clocks is why I think of this as a warping in time that I do not see in space.
But surely, you must acknowledge that the moon is in the same frame as the earth, and if the earth is dilating wouldn't the moon be doing so as well? And BTW, when you speak of dilation, are you saying that the earth is expanding? Most of us know what time dilation refers to the perceived advance of events relative to observers frame of reference. When you speak of a dilating earth, are you suggesting that the earth is expanding or that somehow, it is advancing thru time at a different rate. And relative to what would that other frame be?

 

Offline petm1

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #16 on: 15/01/2014 06:19:19 »
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But surely, you must acknowledge that the moon is in the same frame as the earth, and if the earth is dilating wouldn't the moon be doing so as well?

I think that the Moon and the Earth are separate frames, each centered in its own time, over lapping in a relative space/time.  In my mind I see every single entity as a dilating time after all we use the difference between durations everyday to describe everything from the age of the earth to my own age. 

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Most of us know what time dilation refers to the perceived advance of events relative to observers frame of reference.


Affine space fits more with my picture of time dilation.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #17 on: 15/01/2014 16:12:12 »


I think that the Moon and the Earth are separate frames, each centered in its own time, over lapping in a relative space/time.  In my mind I see every single entity as a dilating time

Would that also include elementary particles? This is starting to sound like Mark McCutcheon's theory my friend and that theory has already been debunked. Maybe you could explain Affine space for us?
 

Offline petm1

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #18 on: 16/01/2014 03:26:39 »
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Maybe you could explain Affine space for us?

Try looking at it like this.  Tonight I see a full moon, as a receiver or as an observer I see what amounts to a wave that left the moon sometime in the past.  If I think of a photon as a small part of this wave, a radius of a single dilating moment centered on the moon you have a dilating time.  We may see a photon and a gap before the next but to explain the gap you must keep this motion even with out the photon.  This affine space is what I see as the moon dilating in time.  Now when you think of the center of the moon as the longest duration with the longer second you get a slower tick rate of local clocks.  Dilation at the speed of light is now how we count time, you just have to think of it as a dilating sphere with the photon's duration a radius of a single part of time centered as mass.  But make no mistake every point in the visible universe dilates it is mass that spends more time in the present.

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Mark McCutcheon's theory

Did he think mass was the past?
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #19 on: 17/01/2014 23:36:05 »
Mark McCutcheon's theory

Did he think mass was the past?
I haven't read his book petm1, so I am not privileged to that information. I have read excerpts from his theory however and find his interpretation lacking. His interpretation of gravity is reasoned thru what he contends as an expansion of space which includes also the very space within particles. He suggests that the combined expansion of these dimensions results in the inertial frame we  understand as gravity. He suggests that because everything is expanding, we the observer can't measure the expansion because we are expanding right along with everything else. His theory falls apart because it doesn't explain the tides we see on earth which are the effect of our moons gravity. I believe he tries to suggest that these tides are caused by electromagnetic or static electrical forces. His theory has not been well received by peer review and I suspect it will remain that way.

As far as defining mass as the past, if I may be so honest, I fail to see how that theory could be explained. The mass we see as the moon came to us a very small fraction of a light second ago. But that mass we now see is in the past, that mass is not the past. That mass resides in the past.

The mass/energy of the moon we experienced in our past is now the mass/energy we experience in our present. The past, like the present and the future only define a point in time, the past can't define physical objects like mass/energy which occupy all places in time.

If we were to concede that "mass is the past", it would be just as correct to say that; Mass is the present and it is also the future. I really don't see how saying that "mass is the past" says anything about reality.

« Last Edit: 18/01/2014 00:35:09 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline petm1

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #20 on: 20/01/2014 20:26:28 »
My duration in the present, my age is increasing, to slow down my clock I can either move deeper into our gravity well, or move faster either one will increase my duration in my present thereby slowing my clock.  The present is where we change the past into the future but it is also the limit to our movements via mass.   Mass on the other hand is my anchor to the past always centered in time relative to a changing present that I can not see.  It is a dilating second, the present, that explains the increasing duration the closer you move massive entities together and I see this as local clocks trying to tick at the same rate you see this same thing as tides.   
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #21 on: 20/01/2014 22:45:28 »
My duration in the present, my age is increasing, to slow down my clock I can either move deeper into our gravity well, or move faster either one will increase my duration in my present thereby slowing my clock. 

Park yourself at the event horizon of a black hole and ask yourself who's time is advancing faster. For you and your clock, time seems to advance at it's normal rate. But what you observe is everything outside speeding up. For those outside, they see you frozen at the event horizon. You see time advancing faster and those outside see your time frozen. Who's time has really slowed down? Depends on who's frame of reference you choose to gage the advance by.

Quote from: petm1
Mass on the other hand is my anchor to the past always centered in time relative to a changing present that I can not see. 
People confuse the terms "Mass and Matter". Matter and mass/energy are very different things. Where matter is a local volume measured in radii, mass and energy are attributes associated with this presence measured in grams and ergs. While an electron is matter, it's mass and energy will increase with velocity. So the rest mass of an electron is very different than that same electron approaching velocities close to c.

My point here is; when you define a location or frame as being: "An anchor to the past," you should probably use the term "Matter" and not mass. But I still don't see the significance of your explanation. The Past, Present, and Future are only different points in the arrow of time. Why one or the other should have more or less to do with mass, or matter, is beyond reason in my opinion.
« Last Edit: 20/01/2014 22:47:44 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline petm1

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #22 on: 22/01/2014 19:11:11 »
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Park yourself at the event horizon of a black hole and ask yourself who's time is advancing faster. For you and your clock, time seems to advance at it's normal rate. But what you observe is everything outside speeding up. For those outside, they see you frozen at the event horizon. You see time advancing faster and those outside see your time frozen. Who's time has really slowed down? Depends on who's frame of reference you choose to gage the advance by.

My consciousness is always co moving with my clock and my second is always a second by my count.  With that said I do not see it as a difference in the speed of times advancement I see it as a difference between the durations we are spending in our separate presents.     

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People confuse the terms "Mass and Matter". Matter and mass/energy are very different things.

Matter is relative by size using an accelerated frame as the base, we all agree that a ruler of matter marked to a meter is always the same length in the present moment, much like our second. Our second is a variable we can measure as changing because of the different tick rates of local clocks but I do not see it as time speeding up or slowing down I see it as mass warping the present moment.


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when you define a location or frame as being: "An anchor to the past," you should probably use the term "Matter" and not mass.

Time is always relative in the present and what keeps us all relative is mass, the resistance to change.  Matter is what I see via photons but mass is what I feel and I don't think of light as an anchor.  I may not be able to think of myself as the center of the universe, in space, but I am just as much the center of time as you or any other massive object. 

     
 

Offline gcrisp

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #23 on: 22/01/2014 20:10:34 »
we all agree that mass can warp space and time, ie around a gravity well. I have this crazy theory that the universe behaves like a giant mass, and that the speed of light is proportional to the distance from the center of the universe (big bang/white hole), and the speed of time is probably inversely proportional to the distance from the center of the universe. This means we observe white light as being white light anywhere, but are we measuring distances correctly towards and away from the center?

What if the universe is behaving like a giant gravity well and we are halfway up the slope?
« Last Edit: 22/01/2014 21:19:26 by gcrisp »
 

Offline petm1

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
« Reply #24 on: 26/01/2014 02:08:14 »
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the universe behaves like a giant mass, and that the speed of light is proportional to the distance from the center of the universe (big bang/white hole)

White hole as in the outward energy flow from big bang, all motion moving in one
direction, the beginning of entropy, not to mention space and time?

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What if the universe is behaving like a giant gravity well and we are halfway up the slope?

Do you think that in the beginning time was infinite and space was not and that in the end it will be space that is infinite and time will not?  Is this the slope?


 

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Re: A new look at an old direction in time.
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