# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Could the strong nuclear force and gravity be the same force?  (Read 4915 times)

#### Aethelstan

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##### Could the strong nuclear force and gravity be the same force?
« on: 05/12/2013 19:51:09 »
I know that the strong nuclear force is 36 orders of magnitude stronger than gravity, but could they be the same fundamental force? My thinking is that gravity on the scale of femtometers could obey the law of 1/r^19 (20 dimensions of space, 17 of which are too small to measure) which obeys the rules of how the strong nuclear force falls of significantly over minute distances. Once r is more than a few femtometers we are out of the realms of the tiny, curled up dimensions and into the three normal dimensions of space and the power of attraction is 36 orders of magnitude smaller.

I am a layman, but I do wish to study physics. Please can you explain to me why this obvious (to me) solution is wrong? I am sure if it were this simple, it would have been proven a long time ago.

#### Bored chemist

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##### Re: Could the strong nuclear force and gravity be the same force?
« Reply #1 on: 05/12/2013 20:44:49 »
IIRC electrons are affected by gravity, but not by the strong nuclear force.

#### Aethelstan

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##### Re: Could the strong nuclear force and gravity be the same force?
« Reply #2 on: 05/12/2013 20:53:55 »
I did think about that and I searched for how gravity affected electrons. The gist of what I read (like I say, I am a layman) was the gravitational effect on something with such miniscule mass was not measurable.

#### JP

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##### Re: Could the strong nuclear force and gravity be the same force?
« Reply #3 on: 05/12/2013 21:45:57 »
But we can measure gravitational lensing or the gravitational redshift which is the effect of gravity on photons.  This means photons are affected by gravity, but not by the strong force.

#### Pmb

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##### Re: Could the strong nuclear force and gravity be the same force?
« Reply #4 on: 05/12/2013 23:32:49 »
I did think about that and I searched for how gravity affected electrons. The gist of what I read (like I say, I am a layman) was the gravitational effect on something with such miniscule mass was not measurable.
I take issue with such an assertion. Where did you read such a thing?

Consider the gravitational force between a typical object and the earth. About 1/2000 of the masses is in their electrons. If the electrons in the object and the earth did not exert gravitational forces on each other, the weight of the object would be smaller by about 1/2000. We can certainly detect that!
« Last Edit: 05/12/2013 23:55:33 by Pmb »

#### evan_au

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##### Re: Could the strong nuclear force and gravity be the same force?
« Reply #5 on: 06/12/2013 09:56:33 »
Quote
20 dimensions of space, 17 of which are too small to measure
This is similar to the concepts of String Theory and M-Theory.

However, these theories are neither simple nor obvious. They are very general, having many adjustable parameters. It is quite possible that these theories may describe some aspects of some universe, but it is not obvious which parameter values (if any) might describe our universe.

Regardless of how gravity and the strong nuclear force behave at the scale of these theoretical strings, or may have behaved in the distant past or far future, today they behave quite differently at the scales that humans can observe. The Strong Nuclear Force has a range which barely exceeds the width of the nucleus of an atom. In contrast, the force of Gravity easily spans the distance between galaxies. This points to some fundamental differences in the way these forces are expressed.

I suggest that if you wish to study these theories in Physics, that you start by studying Mathematics, as these topics are based on some very complex mathematics.

#### jeffreyH

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• The graviton sucks
##### Re: Could the strong nuclear force and gravity be the same force?
« Reply #6 on: 08/12/2013 16:46:17 »
Quote
20 dimensions of space, 17 of which are too small to measure
This is similar to the concepts of String Theory and M-Theory.

However, these theories are neither simple nor obvious. They are very general, having many adjustable parameters. It is quite possible that these theories may describe some aspects of some universe, but it is not obvious which parameter values (if any) might describe our universe.

Regardless of how gravity and the strong nuclear force behave at the scale of these theoretical strings, or may have behaved in the distant past or far future, today they behave quite differently at the scales that humans can observe. The Strong Nuclear Force has a range which barely exceeds the width of the nucleus of an atom. In contrast, the force of Gravity easily spans the distance between galaxies. This points to some fundamental differences in the way these forces are expressed.

I suggest that if you wish to study these theories in Physics, that you start by studying Mathematics, as these topics are based on some very complex mathematics.

Of interest on string theory is this site.

http://www.branebrain.com/

The video near the bottom shows some interesting work in seeing quatum effects on a macroscopic scale. The site develops a new theory of gravity under string theory.

#### Phractality

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##### Re: Could the strong nuclear force and gravity be the same force?
« Reply #7 on: 08/12/2013 18:14:04 »
Forces which attract between opposites cancel as the distance from equal numbers of opposites increases. However, I suspect (raw New Theory, not yet half baked) that the expansion of space might result in a very slight imbalance between those equal but opposite forces. Perhaps this could account for gravity.

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: Could the strong nuclear force and gravity be the same force?
« Reply #7 on: 08/12/2013 18:14:04 »