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Author Topic: What happens when time slows down at light speed?  (Read 11649 times)

Offline justin cosseboom

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Hello all im new here but life long chronic contemplater of the nature of things, I have researched a little bit of a lot of things, and reashearched a few things a lot. Enough with the intro, its lovely to be here and to have an opportunitie to connect with other curious beings.

Whats on my mind tonight is time and energy.

Time I see and have come to understand it as a non fundamental tool thats been created to measure events in the unfolding of the universe. I have held feelings for a long time now that it has no place in any part of the fundamental componets that are this, life. An afirmation of this thought came recently while contemplating time travel.  Most poeople will agree while moving at speeds near that of light time passes slower and stops at the speed of light. I do not belive this to be a good way to describe the phenomenon. First I dont think time has any place in this matter. This is what has come to be a better more accurate description for my mind.
What happens is not a slowing of time, but a slowing of the particles and there processes of interaction with other involved particles, so not that 20 years of time did not pass on you while travelling near light speed, you were still gone 20 earth years what you did was move at such a high speed that the normal metamophasis of the particles that we see on earth was slowed or frozen at light speed. You were still gone 20 earth years only for you it seemed perhaps an instant but that state is just a slowed down or frozen state. All particles are "frozen" at light speed or slowed as they near it. I dont see any place for time. Aside from a tool of measure ment. Although you might not have aged physically you may feel like only a moment has passed what is really happening is a slowing of phisical processes due to a relative high speed.  Your still 20 earth years older although for you in a state of suspended or slowed animation it feels like you traveled forward in time. Realisticly you just created circumstances that slowed or froze you in a state due to your speed relative to light. So what do you all think on that one? Still to move at light speed or near it and slow your experience of the unfolding of your own body the feel as if no time has passed is amazing.  I just feel the word time has no place besides as a made up concept that allows us to document the unfolding of things. Times for history, but in a reality thats composed of timeless energy why intergrate it in science?
On to energy.
Its generaly accepted that particles of energy have volume measured by there wave length.  I have been starting to really see this as a slight misunderstanding.  At this point im coming to belive that energy only appears to have volume but in actuality it has no volume. A partical of energy has mass and a wave length but exits In no more than 2 demensions and there for has no actual volume.  Its wavelength may vibrate in 3 or more dimensions of space producing a zero volume particle that can appear to occupie a said volume but in reality the particle is only making itself appear so. This to me is far more likely and makes it much easier to comprehend things like black holes and the first moments of our universe.

Well its late now but im really interested if these ideas cary any potential in reality. So every one please share your thoughts and knowledge.  I do apologize for my lay man ish way of expressing things but I try to break all things down in the simplest way possible.  I feel the true nature of things is a most simple foundation so simple we cant see it even if its truth has always been right under our nose. The details however are infinite and beautiful but only intricate expressions of a most simple set of blocks.


I used to think the universe was full of paradoxes but now all I see are things that appear to contradict each other but these false paradoxes disolve with better understanding. The universe has no contradictions but is full of things that appear to contradict at a glance.
« Last Edit: 27/01/2014 09:21:53 by chris »


 

Offline justin cosseboom

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #1 on: 08/02/2014 07:52:04 »
Any one? I dont need a definitive answer, just a yes its in the realm of possiblities or no. Please any input is appreciated.


Thanks
 

Offline lightarrow

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #2 on: 08/02/2014 12:50:49 »
What happens when time slows down at light speed?
It doesn't. Neither at light speed nor at others speeds.
 

Offline justin cosseboom

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #3 on: 08/02/2014 20:23:10 »
What happens when time slows down at light speed?
It doesn't. Neither at light speed nor at others speeds.
Exactly my thoughts.  Why do so called documentaries (natgeo discovery etc.) Insist on describing real phenomenon as something that is in fact science fiction. Misleading thousands perhaps millions of viewers who now belive time trave is a real thing. The truth I find is far more spectacular than any science fiction fantasy world. Ha things that boggle my mind!


 

Offline justin cosseboom

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #4 on: 08/02/2014 20:37:28 »
Im most curious to hear thoughts as regaurds to my question about particle volume as measured by there wave length. That concept makes even less sense than time travel. 1 and or 2 dimensional particles of energy vibrating in multi demensional space giving the illusion of volume but not actually haveing any makes perfect senses to me and makes things like  black holes and the big bang completely understandable. The concept of energy possessing actual volume seems to straight forwardly contradict these aspects of the universe.

Please anyone you thoughts are appreciated!
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #5 on: 10/02/2014 03:17:03 »
The problem with any idea of light 'slowing down' is that a time dilation is observer dependent. It's dependent of your speed (and mass) relative what you measure. So three observers, having different mass and speeds relative each other, will define a far away rocket as having 'three different' time dilations, depending on observer. Your local clock doesn't lie though, it never does.

What it means is that if you want the rockets particles to 'slow down', then they have to slow down three different ways, 'simultaneously', or four if I include the rockets 'own local wrist watch'. You and me both though, agree on that 'time' exist, and as I read you, locally of a same measure relative oneself.
 

Offline lightarrow

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #6 on: 10/02/2014 08:43:19 »
What happens when time slows down at light speed?
It doesn't. Neither at light speed nor at others speeds.
Exactly my thoughts.  Why do so called documentaries (natgeo discovery etc.) Insist on describing real phenomenon as something that is in fact science fiction. Misleading thousands perhaps millions of viewers who now belive time trave is a real thing. The truth I find is far more spectacular than any science fiction fantasy world. Ha things that boggle my mind!
Documentaries usually tend to show things in a spectacular, fascinating way and to oversimplify, to entertain people better...
 

Offline JP

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #7 on: 10/02/2014 15:54:30 »
What happens when time slows down at light speed?
It doesn't. Neither at light speed nor at others speeds.
Exactly my thoughts.  Why do so called documentaries (natgeo discovery etc.) Insist on describing real phenomenon as something that is in fact science fiction. Misleading thousands perhaps millions of viewers who now belive time trave is a real thing. The truth I find is far more spectacular than any science fiction fantasy world. Ha things that boggle my mind!
Documentaries usually tend to show things in a spectacular, fascinating way and to oversimplify, to entertain people better...

I agree with you, Lightarrow, but I think the OP may be misinterpreting what relativity does say about time.  It says that an observer at rest with respect to some process will always observe the same physics as any other observer at rest.  An observer moving with respect to some process will see that process occurring slower than if they were at rest WRT that process, whether that is a clock tick or the decay of a muon.  In other words, moving clocks run slow.  So while it is fair to say that time slows down for moving observers with respect to stationary observers, the italicized words are extremely important.  You can't make a blanket statement, as stated in the original post, that "time slows down [near] light speed," since it's only in comparison of clocks moving with respect to each other that time dilation appears.
 

Offline lightarrow

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #8 on: 10/02/2014 22:36:18 »
I agree with you, Lightarrow, but I think the OP may be misinterpreting what relativity does say about time.  It says that an observer at rest with respect to some process will always observe the same physics as any other observer at rest.  An observer moving with respect to some process will see that process occurring slower than if they were at rest WRT that process, whether that is a clock tick or the decay of a muon.  In other words, moving clocks run slow.  So while it is fair to say that time slows down for moving observers with respect to stationary observers, the italicized words are extremely important.  You can't make a blanket statement, as stated in the original post, that "time slows down [near] light speed," since it's only in comparison of clocks moving with respect to each other that time dilation appears.
Certainly. Furthermore, it should be also specified that those running clocks runs slower with respect *those clocks near it, in the frame of reference of the stationary observer* and not with respect a fixed observer in an arbitrary point of its frame, because this has no physical meaning. Unless the two clocks one day meet again, so that they can be compared.
There are a lot of things which should be precised, it's meaningless to make, as you said, "blank statements".

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Offline dlorde

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #9 on: 11/02/2014 12:01:47 »
... it should be also specified that those running clocks runs slower with respect *those clocks near it, in the frame of reference of the stationary observer* and not with respect a fixed observer in an arbitrary point of its frame, because this has no physical meaning.
I don't quite follow what you mean here; with respect to the parts I've bolded:

a. I wasn't aware that it varied with distance  - how near do the clocks have to be for the moving clocks to run slow relative to the stationary observer's clock ?

b. What is the 'fixed observer' fixed relative to, and which frame is 'its' frame?

I also don't really see what it is that 'has no physical meaning'... 
« Last Edit: 11/02/2014 12:05:49 by dlorde »
 

Offline lightarrow

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #10 on: 12/02/2014 13:04:38 »
... it should be also specified that those running clocks runs slower with respect *those clocks near it, in the frame of reference of the stationary observer* and not with respect a fixed observer in an arbitrary point of its frame, because this has no physical meaning.
I don't quite follow what you mean here; with respect to the parts I've bolded:
a. I wasn't aware that it varied with distance  - how near do the clocks have to be for the moving clocks to run slow relative to the stationary observer's clock ?
No, with "near" I mean that you have to compare two close physical clocks, one inside a starship which passes by a platform, the other on the platform; you have to compare the starship clock with the one in the platform whis is close to it, not to "any" clock of the platform ("the platform" here plays the role of "the other frame of reference").
Quote
b. What is the 'fixed observer' fixed relative to, and which frame is 'its' frame?
I also don't really see what it is that 'has no physical meaning'... 
With he term "Fixed observer" I intended, for example, the twin which stays on Earth while the other travels in a starship and is far away. Sorry for the poor language.
What has no physical meaning is to say: "here on Earth my clock signs 12:00:00, there, inside the far away starship the clock now signs...".
You can only compare two close clocks (because in this way you can refer both to the same "event": the physical "meeting" of the two clocks). To do this you need two frame of reference, ***for example*** two platforms, one stationary with respect to Earth, the other with the starship. If you don't have those physical platforms, you have to make computations *as if you had* and imagine clocks all along the starship trajectory, one row of clocks stationary with respect to Earth, the other stationary with respect to starship, every clock of a frame syncronized (for example) with Einstein rule.
Other ways of comparing times between the two frames have no physical meaning (and generate tons of paradoxes, tons of questions by laymen, tons of ... crackpots about relativity).

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« Last Edit: 12/02/2014 13:14:07 by lightarrow »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #11 on: 12/02/2014 17:19:23 »
You can only compare two close clocks (because in this way you can refer both to the same "event": the physical "meeting" of the two clocks). To do this you need two frame of reference, ***for example*** two platforms, one stationary with respect to Earth, the other with the starship. If you don't have those physical platforms, you have to make computations *as if you had* and imagine clocks all along the starship trajectory, one row of clocks stationary with respect to Earth, the other stationary with respect to starship, every clock of a frame syncronized (for example) with Einstein rule.
Other ways of comparing times between the two frames have no physical meaning (and generate tons of paradoxes, tons of questions by laymen, tons of ... crackpots about relativity).
OK, I see what you mean; thanks for the explanation.
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #12 on: 16/02/2014 00:51:10 »
The problem with any idea of light 'slowing down' is that a time dilation is observer dependent. It's dependent of your speed (and mass) relative what you measure. So three observers, having different mass and speeds relative each other, will define a far away rocket as having 'three different' time dilations, depending on observer. Your local clock doesn't lie though, it never does.

What it means is that if you want the rockets particles to 'slow down', then they have to slow down three different ways, 'simultaneously', or four if I include the rockets 'own local wrist watch'. You and me both though, agree on that 'time' exist, and as I read you, locally of a same measure relative oneself.

The particles don't have to slow down in different ways everyone is slowing at different rates to each other in a relativistic relationship and it all balances out. It's just there is no universal frame of reference to oversee all the relative time dilation. Any particular frame in the entire universe is running at a different speed to everything else that has a frame not equivalent with it's own by a particular amount. This amount could be 1 nanosecond or 8 years slower or faster.
 

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Offline ScientificSorcerer

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #13 on: 16/02/2014 06:29:56 »
Shrunk
random spam post! you have just been spammed
 

Offline lightarrow

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #14 on: 16/02/2014 17:25:09 »
Any particular frame in the entire universe is running at a different speed to everything else that has a frame not equivalent with it's own by a particular amount. This amount could be 1 nanosecond or 8 years slower or faster.
I have understood nothing of this passage. Can you please make a specific example?
 

Offline flr

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #15 on: 16/02/2014 22:17:39 »
Your local clock doesn't lie though, it never does.
What if the locality is not absolute? http://arxiv.org/abs/1101.0931
 

Offline sciconoclast

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #16 on: 23/02/2014 00:02:32 »
Great Post Justin.
                              According to relativity time would slow down with speed. If a photon is traveling at the speed of light relative to its local reference frame then it is frozen in time according to relativity [ reference frames are now defined by gravitational space geometry but the phrase was first introduced by Galileo when he noticed that an observer inside a wooden framed cabin on a ship could not determine if he was moving or not].  It makes no difference how that speed compares to a separate outside reference frame.  If someone was traveling at near the speed of light relative to and within our frame everything within their vehicle would seem to be unchanged but the interactions viewed through the port hole would appear to be accelerated.
      Special relativity was built on the Lorentz-Fitzgerald contraction and Ponecare's "The Postulate of Relativity".  The only original contribution in SR is the move away from a preferred reference frame and the related requirement that changes in fourth dimension co-ordinates represent an change in time.  The predictions for any experiment or observation are presumed to be the same for LET and SR [ this may change shortly ].  T
      I think that your comments are correct.  There are many physicist that feel that time is more an illusion of human perception. For example the Russian Physicist L. Boldyreva and N. Sotina have published a book titled "A Theory of Light without Special Relativity".  One of the few experts on relativity told me at a conference that the more you understand relativity the more troubling questions you will have.
      Special Relativity is a lot like the fable of the Emperor's Clothes in which the fabric could only be seen by those with intelligence.  It took an unpretentious child to point out to the Emperor that he was naked. Like wise those who question relativity are often accused of not understanding it by those who actually do not.
       In keeping with this thought I am going to post a link in the new theories section to a you tube video in which a three year old challenges Einstein.  I think you will like it a lot.     
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #17 on: 23/02/2014 00:26:35 »
Any particular frame in the entire universe is running at a different speed to everything else that has a frame not equivalent with it's own by a particular amount. This amount could be 1 nanosecond or 8 years slower or faster.
I have understood nothing of this passage. Can you please make a specific example?

If two frames are running parallel to each other at the same velocity they are equivalent. Any difference in vector direction makes them un-equivalent and therefore they run at different speeds however minute the difference.
« Last Edit: 23/02/2014 00:31:05 by jeffreyH »
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #18 on: 23/02/2014 01:13:30 »
Great Post Justin.
                              According to relativity time would slow down with speed. If a photon is traveling at the speed of light relative to its local reference frame then it is frozen in time according to relativity [ reference frames are now defined by gravitational space geometry but the phrase was first introduced by Galileo when he noticed that an observer inside a wooden framed cabin on a ship could not determine if he was moving or not].  It makes no difference how that speed compares to a separate outside reference frame.  If someone was traveling at near the speed of light relative to and within our frame everything within their vehicle would seem to be unchanged but the interactions viewed through the port hole would appear to be accelerated.
      Special relativity was built on the Lorentz-Fitzgerald contraction and Ponecare's "The Postulate of Relativity".  The only original contribution in SR is the move away from a preferred reference frame and the related requirement that changes in fourth dimension co-ordinates represent an change in time.  The predictions for any experiment or observation are presumed to be the same for LET and SR [ this may change shortly ].  T
      I think that your comments are correct.  There are many physicist that feel that time is more an illusion of human perception. For example the Russian Physicist L. Boldyreva and N. Sotina have published a book titled "A Theory of Light without Special Relativity".  One of the few experts on relativity told me at a conference that the more you understand relativity the more troubling questions you will have.
      Special Relativity is a lot like the fable of the Emperor's Clothes in which the fabric could only be seen by those with intelligence.  It took an unpretentious child to point out to the Emperor that he was naked. Like wise those who question relativity are often accused of not understanding it by those who actually do not.
       In keeping with this thought I am going to post a link in the new theories section to a you tube video in which a three year old challenges Einstein.  I think you will like it a lot.   

Well the braided preon theory and contraction/expansion are just another way of describing relativity. What I hadn't come across before was LET

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_ether_theory

I have gone back over the history between 1800s - 1930s and tried to retraced the steps that led to relativity and the standard model. This I missed so I am going to take a look into it. The video was a bit of a let down BTW.
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #19 on: 23/02/2014 20:13:29 »
What I find strange is that people are so quick to write off LET when it fits so well with what we see (http://www.conspiracyoflight.com/Conspiracy.html). The distortions introduced by Einstein manage to provide a potential account for gravity by turning it into a non-force, but what if it's a real force like all the others and the distortions required to pretend that it isn't a force are nothing more than a misleading mathematical trick?
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #20 on: 23/02/2014 23:34:10 »
What I find strange is that people are so quick to write off LET when it fits so well with what we see (http://www.conspiracyoflight.com/Conspiracy.html). The distortions introduced by Einstein manage to provide a potential account for gravity by turning it into a non-force, but what if it's a real force like all the others and the distortions required to pretend that it isn't a force are nothing more than a misleading mathematical trick?

That thought also crossed my mind.
 

Offline sciconoclast

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #21 on: 24/02/2014 14:40:59 »
Here are some additional thoughts.
                                                    The Michelson-Gale-Pearson experiment only agrees with relativity if the reference frame is rotating with the earth.  The Hafele-Keating experiment only works with relativity if the reference frame is not rotating with the Earth. Also, the comparison between differently oriented rectangular courses in the Michelson-Gale-Pearson experiment makes it possible to calculate the rotational speed of the earth relative to the speed of light.

       There has been a wealth of experiments and observations showing that neutrinos travel at the speed of light and that they can change flavor while moving at that speed.  If they where frozen in time they could not undergo the change.

Justin; as for your second question about volume, one of the most important principles of string theory is that string propagation is restricted to a reduction to minimal space and time.  There are a lot of complicated formulas for calculating this involving multiple dimensions.

    In quantum theory, in contrast to what is assumed by most engineers and technicians, the wave functions are not representing real waves. Instead they are an abstract mathematical tool for calculating probable outcomes.  A quantum theorist would not say that a photon travels at the speed of light, but that the time distance intervals for the probability field are progressing at the speed of light.  The actualization of the photon or electron involved in an interaction only represents a restriction to one set of probable values which then represents a new more restricted probability field.  I am not sure, but volume may not be one of these values.

    Someone working with relativity would want to define the photon or electron with four dimensional co-ordinates.     
       
     All of these theories probably have some partial truths and some partial misconceptions.  Just about every one has ideas on how to unite these theories, including myself, but for now those mussings belong in new theories.
 

Offline lightarrow

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #22 on: 24/02/2014 18:53:47 »
Any particular frame in the entire universe is running at a different speed to everything else that has a frame not equivalent with it's own by a particular amount. This amount could be 1 nanosecond or 8 years slower or faster.
I have understood nothing of this passage. Can you please make a specific example?
If two frames are running parallel to each other at the same velocity
"velocity" measured in which frame?
Quote
they are equivalent. Any difference in vector direction makes them un-equivalent and therefore they run at different speeds however minute the difference.
What does "they run at different speeds" means? Are you referring to time rhythm or something of this kind? Or?
 

Offline lightarrow

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #23 on: 24/02/2014 18:58:56 »
What I find strange is that people are so quick to write off LET when it fits so well with what we see (http://www.conspiracyoflight.com/Conspiracy.html). The distortions introduced by Einstein manage to provide a potential account for gravity by turning it into a non-force, but what if it's a real force like all the others and the distortions required to pretend that it isn't a force are nothing more than a misleading mathematical trick?
In the page you have linked there is a missing column: "Supports General Relativity".
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #24 on: 24/02/2014 19:26:31 »
What I find strange is that people are so quick to write off LET when it fits so well with what we see (http://www.conspiracyoflight.com/Conspiracy.html). The distortions introduced by Einstein manage to provide a potential account for gravity by turning it into a non-force, but what if it's a real force like all the others and the distortions required to pretend that it isn't a force are nothing more than a misleading mathematical trick?
In the page you have linked there is a missing column: "Supports General Relativity".

That's the first column - just a different label on it.
 

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Re: What happens when time slows down at light speed?
« Reply #24 on: 24/02/2014 19:26:31 »

 

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