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Author Topic: Is Cod Liver Oil actually good for us?  (Read 308871 times)

Offline grumpy old mare

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Re: Is Cod Liver Oil actually good for us?
« Reply #125 on: 19/06/2008 11:07:04 »
aaaah, I can see your point now - I didn't know those kinds of ads!

I'm afraid I've never heard of Michael Horlick's conference. where was that shown?
 

Offline iko

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Re: Is Cod Liver Oil actually good for us?
« Reply #126 on: 19/06/2008 12:39:35 »
aaaah, I can see your point now - I didn't know those kinds of ads!

I'm afraid I've never heard of Michael Holick's conference. where was that shown?

In Copenhagen, May 2007...actually free online.
You may enjoy it clicking at the bottom of the previous-following box:

It's never too late (sometimes)...
If you followed this thread so far,
you deserve to watch this free video:

"The Vitamin D Pandemic and its Health Consequences"

Presented by Michael Holick, PhD, MD, Professor of medicine, physiology and biophysics
and director of the General Clinical Research Center at Boston University Medical Center
Keynote address at the opening ceremony of the 34th European Symposium on Calcified Tissues, Copenhagen 5 May, 2007


« Last Edit: 23/06/2008 21:55:20 by iko »
 

Offline iko

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Re: Is Cod Liver Oil actually good for us?
« Reply #127 on: 29/06/2008 12:20:53 »
...even in rare and particular clinical settings,
vitamin D -the sunshine vitamin- might help.
This is a very recent report from France:


Pretransplant Serum Vitamin D Levels and Risk of Cancer After Renal Transplantation.


Ducloux D, Courivaud C, Bamoulid J, Kazory A, Dumoulin G, Chalopin JM.
1 Inserm, U645 Besançon, University of Besançon, Besançon, France. 2 Department of Nephrology, Dialysis, and Renal Transplantation, University of Franche-Comté, Besançon, France. 3 CIC Biotherapy, Saint Jacques University Hospital, Besançon, France. 4 Laboratory of Renal and Metabolic Exploration, Jean-Minjoz University Hospital, Besançon, France.


BACKGROUND.: Serum levels of 25-OH-D3 inversely correlate with the incidence of various types of cancers in the general population. Because risk factors and incidence of cancer in renal transplant recipients (RTRs) are different from the general population, this study was designed to determine whether pretransplant 25-OH-D3 levels could be predictive of cancer risk in RTRs. METHODS.: Pretransplant 25-OH-D3 levels were reviewed in 363 consecutive RTRs. The impact of 25-OH-D3 levels on the development of cancer was then analyzed with respect to other known risk factors. RESULTS.: One hundred twenty-four patients (34.2%) showed vitamin D deficiency, 185 (51%) vitamin D insufficiency, and 54 (14.8%) with normal vitamin D levels. Thirty-two cancers (8.8%) occurred in 32 patients. A higher incidence of cancer was observed in patients with vitamin D deficiency (13.7% vs. 7% for patients with vitamin D insufficiency [P=0.068] and 3.7% for those with normal vitamin D levels [P=0.007]). 25-OH-D3 levels were lower in patients who developed cancer after transplantation (13.7+/-6 vs. 18.3+/-17.8 ng/mL, P=0.022). Age (hazard ratio, 1.06; 95% confidence interval, 1.02-1.11, for each 1 year increase; P=0.009) and low 25-OH-D3 levels (hazard ratio, 1.12; 95% confidence interval, 1.04-1.23, for every 1 ng/mL decrease; P=0.021) were independent risk factors for development of cancer.
CONCLUSION.: Pretransplant level of 25-OH-D3 is an important determinant for subsequent development of cancer after transplantation. Future studies should examine whether 25-OH-D3 supplementation can effectively decrease the incidence of cancer in RTRs.

Transplantation. 2008 Jun 27;85(12):1755-1759.










Could by any chance the old remedy, a relic from the past,
an inexpensive nutrient containing vitamins A and D,
help leukemic patients in the long run, AFTER treatment?
According to this recent study, the answer is yes.


Differentiation-inducing liposoluble vitamin deficiency may explain
frequent secondary solid tumors after hematopoietic stem cell transplantation
Minireview.


Gedikoglu G, Altinoz MA.

Secondary cancers are among the most threatening long-term health problems of hematopoetic stem cell- transplant (HSCT) patients. There are several lines of evidence indicating the possibility of a prolonged Vitamin A deficiency for solid tumor-type secondary cancers: I- Solid tumors such as oral cavity, head/neck region squamous carcinomas, skin cancers and melanomas, where lowered Vitamin A concentrations and chemo-preventing activity of its derivatives (retinoids) are most explicitly proven, arise much more frequently than others. II- Early monitorings: A significant retinol deficiency in HSCT patients is detectable along with a severity of mucositis and the vulnerability to infection. III- Monitoring of other liposoluble vitamins: Vitamin D, a differentiation-inducing vitamin like Vitamin A, showed a sustained decrease. Another similarity of these two vitamins is that they also depend on intestinal absorption and are decreased due to bowel injury by conditioning agents and chronic graft-versus-host disease. IV- Peroxidative reactions and inflammation can directly exhaust retinol levels despite sufficient intake. Considering the similar inhibitory role of Vitamin D analogs (deltanoids) on squamous carcinomas, skin tumors and melanomas, we propose that animal studies and extended vitamin surveillance studies in HSCT patients may unfold a preventive strategy against long-term complications.

Neoplasma. 2008;55(1):1-9.




« Last Edit: 21/07/2008 18:47:49 by iko »
 

Offline iko

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Re: Is Cod Liver Oil actually good for us?
« Reply #128 on: 05/08/2008 14:48:55 »



Thank you Zoey,
for asking about my favourite quote.  Well, to explain it properly, in a short 'essay' in english... it will take me more than a few minutes!  But translating it is the easiest thing:

"The sun gives life, the sun takes it back"


These words concluded one of the best lectures I attended in my life. At the 3rd year of Medical school, General Pathology course, more than thirty years ago. Professor Mario Umberto Dianzani was our teacher, Dean of the Medical Faculty and a distinguished scientist, totally dedicated to his students.  Later on he has been Rector of the University of Turin for several years before retiring.
In those days biochemistry was 'the' thing: new cofactors and vitamins were deeply explored by medical research.
I'm sure I owe to his excellent lectures my following research interest in cofactors.


"Aging of cells and living organisms" was the subject of the lecture.

In less than one hour we went from the origin of life on our Planet to the present time.
Volcanoes and oceans plus UV light to catalyze the synthesis of organic compounds (Miller's experiment), then nucleic acid formation after million years of random combinations.
Primitive organisms, bacteria and algae.  Again the sunlight creates energy through photosynthetic processes and here come trees and forests! Different species of primitive life, unicellular, multicellular towards more and more complex organisms, thanks to spontaneous mutations, natural selection and evolution. For the whole 'biosphere' survival is always tightly bound to its origin, to the sunlight.
Sunlight and ultraviolet rays give energy and feed the whole system, nevertheless they are responsible -in the end- for lipid peroxidation and DNA damage.  A series of biochemical reactions lead to senescence in multicellular organisms too.
Complex systems are progressively deranged: skin, bones, muscles, nerves, glands and immune cells get older...diseases follow.
The sun itself puts an end to our lives.

Magic

... 




"Il sole dona la vita, il sole se la riprende"
 
Mario Umberto Dianzani, 1975.
 





« Last Edit: 17/12/2008 22:42:19 by iko »
 

Offline Karen W.

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Re: Is Cod Liver Oil actually good for us?
« Reply #129 on: 23/10/2008 21:37:06 »
But.. It is really beautiful isn't it!
 

Offline guilda

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Re: Is Cod Liver Oil actually good for us?
« Reply #130 on: 16/12/2008 05:48:29 »
Each tablespoon has 40 calories, all 40 of them being from fat.
"As a dietary supplement, take 1-3 teaspoonfuls daily."
So, that's up to 120 extra calories from fat every day.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
guilda

newbielink:http://www.drug-intervention.com/tennessee-drug-intervention.html [nonactive]
 

Offline iko

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Re: Is Cod Liver Oil actually good for us?
« Reply #131 on: 16/12/2008 21:04:40 »
Hi guilda!

Welcome to this forum and to an almost forgotten discussion about the benefits of cod liver oil.
This thread is deeply connected to a leukemia and D-vitamin -two year long- debate between Zoey, dqfry, Neilep, George-another_someone, plus others and myself: you may have a look around there, if you are interested in this sort of stuff.


Each tablespoon has 40 calories, all 40 of them being from fat.
"As a dietary supplement, take 1-3 teaspoonfuls daily."
So, that's up to 120 extra calories from fat every day.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
guilda

Drug Intervention Tennessee

Yes, but this is supposed to be "good" fat:
mostly omega-3 fatty acid (EPA & DHA), so good for our brain and blood vessels.
Not to mention vitamin A and D-vitamin, the sunlight hormone-vitamin.
Furthermore, 3 teaspoons of 'cod' daily could mean too much vitamin A, as recently reported.
As I mentioned before, some producer had to remove consistent amounts of D-vitamin during processing to comply with wrongly assessed toxic daily doses.
Consequently, we might get too much vitamin A reducing the benefit of too little vitamin D3.
I suspect that the original formula was quite different indeed.


"Cod Liver Oil, Vitamin A Toxicity, Frequent Respiratory Infections,
 and the Vitamin D Deficiency Epidemic"

by John Cannell et al.
Ann Otol Rhinol Laryngol 2008;117:864-870.
http://www.annals.com/toc/auto_abstract.php?id=15313
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/newsletter/2008-december.shtml

Now we surely need certified cod liver oil with proper testing of the amounts of vitamins A and D3 reported for each batch/lot.  This might justify a less cheap product on one side, allowing the lot of us to rediscover its role as a proper nutrient on the other.
But I am afraid that the "freshly patented" and more expensive vitamin D analogues will win in the end: they will be able to support all the extensive and accurate clinical trials needed today.
Poor old cod liver oil, a relic from the past: it will go back to silly jokes and ancient stories.

ikod





Good NEWS on D-vitamin!!!

Quote

M. A. Helou, G. Massey, G. Francis, K. Godder, J. Laver
 
Abstract:
Background: Survivors of childhood cancer are at increased risk for osteoporosis. Contributing factors include direct effects of chemotherapy and radiation therapy on bone, secondary hormone deficiencies, and chronic illness. However, vitamin D insufficiency could be a major risk factor during and after cancer therapy. Vitamin D insufficiency is common in healthy school aged children (median 25-hydroxy vitamin D [25(OH)D] = 28 ng/mL, 55% <30 ng/mL, 5% < 10 ng/mL.) Based on this data, we hypothesize that vitamin D insufficiency would be common among children with cancer. If vitamin D insufficiency is prevalent, correction may contribute to better bone health and immune responses in children with cancer. Methods: We determined the serum levels of 25(OH)D, PTH, calcium, and phosphorus for 40 children with leukemia or lymphoma currently on therapy (group 1), 34 children with leukemia or lymphoma off therapy (group 2), 16 children with solid tumors currently on therapy (group 3), and 10 children with solid tumors off therapy (group 4.) Prevalence of 25(OH)D insufficiency ( <32 ng/mL) and severe deficiency (<10 ng/mL) was compared by Chi square test to the healthy reference population (established by Weng, et al.)
Results: For the majority of patients, calcium and phosphorus levels were within normal limits. Conclusions: Vitamin D insufficiency was very common in all groups, especially in children with solid tumors on therapy (Group 3.) 25(OH)D levels did improve off therapy, but for Group 2, still remained significantly less than normal reference population (p=0.0001.)

The data suggests that vitamin D status should be determined for all children at diagnosis of malignancy with a strong recommendation to consider vitamin D supplementation during treatment and follow up.

J Clin Oncol 26: 2008 (May 20 suppl; abstr 10023)




Something is finally "moving" on the clinical research side...
I hope(dream) that many parents -on the other side- are giving 'cod for more than one year'!


Quote

Unfortunately, if vitamin D is needed mainly, and too much vitamin A is either toxic or counteracting "D" wonderful effects (J.Cannell et al. Nov.2008), we would need a special cod liver oil formula:


a moderate amount of vitamin A, plenty of D-vitamin and lots of omega-3!


This probably WAS the original cod liver oil, before they started removing D-vitamin, erroneously thinking that it was too close to toxic amounts.
Two thousands I.U. per day of vitamin D3 was considered almost toxic for humans.
What a shame: we seem to have destroyed the original formula.




« Last Edit: 26/12/2008 17:58:42 by iko »
 

Offline iko

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Re: Is Cod Liver Oil actually good for us?
« Reply #132 on: 26/12/2008 17:52:48 »
From January 2008 VitaminD Newsletter:

Quote
...
All of the epidemiological and animal studies in the literature suggest cancer patients will prolong their lives if they take vitamin D.  I can't find any studies that indicate otherwise.  However, none of the suggestive studies are randomized controlled interventional trials; they are all epidemiological or animal studies, or, in the case of Vieth's, an open human study.  However, if you have cancer, or your child does, do you want to wait the decades it will take for the American Cancer Society to fund randomized controlled trials using the proper dose of vitamin D?  Chances are you, or your child, will not be around to see the results.
 
John Cannell, MD












« Last Edit: 10/04/2009 18:38:32 by iko »
 

Offline iko

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Re: Is Cod Liver Oil actually good for us?
« Reply #133 on: 10/04/2009 15:20:57 »
Some recent discussion about ancient reports of cod liver oil use...




Rickets in Lion Cubs at the London Zoo in 1889: Some New Insights.


Chesney RW, Hedberg G.
aDepartment of Pediatrics, University of Tennessee Health Science Center, Memphis, Tennessee.

In 1889, when Dr John Bland-Sutton, a prominent surgeon in London, England, was consulted concerning fatal rickets in more than 20 successive litters of lion cubs at the London Zoo, he evaluated the role of diet relative to the development of rickets. He prescribed goat meat and bones and cod-liver oil to be added to the lean horse-meat diet of the cubs and their mothers. Rickets reversed, the cubs survived, and litters were reared successfully. In classic controlled studies conducted in puppies and young rats 3 decades later, the crucial role of calcium, phosphate, and vitamin D in both prevention and therapy of rickets was elucidated. Later studies led to the identification of the structural features of vitamin D. Although the Bland-Sutton interventional diet obviously provides calcium and phosphate from bones and vitamin D from cod-liver oil, other benefits of this diet were not initially recognized.
Chewing bones promotes tooth and gum health and removes bacteria-laden tartar.
Cod-liver oil also contains vitamin A, which is essential for the prevention of infection and for epithelial cell health. Taurine-conjugated bile salts are also necessary for the intestinal absorption of fat-soluble vitamins, including A and D. Moreover, unlike dogs and rats, all feline species are unable to synthesize taurine yet can only conjugate bile acids with taurine. This sulfur-containing beta-amino acid must be provided in the carnivorous diet of a large cat.
Taurine-conjugated bile salts were provided in the oil cold-pressed from cod liver.
The now famous Bland-Sutton "experiment of nature," namely, fatal rickets in lion cubs, was cured by the addition of minerals and vitamin D. However, gum health and the presence of taurine-conjugated bile salts undoubtedly permitted absorption of vitamin A and D, the latter promoting the cure of rickets.

Pediatrics. 2009 Apr 6. [Epub ahead of print]

« Last Edit: 02/05/2009 14:35:06 by iko »
 

Offline iko

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Re: Is Cod Liver Oil actually good for us?
« Reply #134 on: 30/11/2009 22:06:01 »
News, news, news!






25-Hydroxyvitamin D, dementia, and cerebrovascular pathology in elders receiving home services.


Buell JS, Dawson-Hughes B, Scott TM, Weiner DE, Dallal GE, Qui WQ, Bergethon P, Rosenberg IH, Folstein MF, Patz S, Bhadelia RA, Tucker KL.

From the Friedman School of Nutrition Science and Policy (J.S.B., T.M.S., G.E.D., I.H.R., K.L.T.), Tufts University; Tufts Medical Center (T.M.S., D.E.W., W.Q.Q., M.F.F., S.P., R.A.B.), Tufts University School of Medicine; Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging (B.D.-H., G.E.D., I.H.R., K.L.T.); Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center (R.A.B.); and Boston University Medical Center (P.B.), Boston, MA.

BACKGROUND: Vitamin D deficiency has potential adverse effects on neurocognitive health and subcortical function. However, no studies have examined the association between vitamin D status, dementia, and cranial MRI indicators of cerebrovascular disease (CVD). METHODS: Cross-sectional investigation of 25-hydroxyvitamin D [25(OH)D], dementia, and MRI measures of CVD in elders receiving home care (aged 65-99 years) from 2003 to 2007. RESULTS: Among 318 participants, the mean age was 73.5 +/- 8.1 years, 231 (72.6%) were women, and 109 (34.3%) were black. 25(OH)D concentrations were deficient (<10 ng/mL) in 14.5% and insufficient (10-20 ng/mL) in 44.3% of participants. There were 76 participants (23.9%) with dementia, 41 of which were classified as probable AD. Mean 25(OH)D concentrations were lower in subjects with dementia (16.8 vs 20.0 ng/mL, p < 0.01). There was a higher prevalence of dementia among participants with 25(OH)D insufficiency (</=20 ng/mL) (30.5% vs 14.5%, p < 0.01). 25(OH)D deficiency was associated with increased white matter hyperintensity volume (4.9 vs 2.9 mL, p < 0.01), grade (3.0 vs 2.2, p = 0.04), and prevalence of large vessel infarcts (10.1% vs 6.9%, p < 0.01). After adjustment for age, race, sex, body mass index, and education, 25(OH)D insufficiency (</=20 ng/mL) was associated with more than twice the odds of all-cause dementia (odds ratio [OR] = 2.3, 95% confidence interval [CI] 1.2-4.2), Alzheimer disease (OR = 2.5, 95% CI 1.1-6.1), and stroke (with and without dementia symptoms) (OR = 2.0, 95% CI 1.0-4.0). CONCLUSIONS: Vitamin D insufficiency and deficiency was associated with all-cause dementia, Alzheimer disease, stroke (with and without dementia symptoms), and MRI indicators of cerebrovascular disease.
These findings suggest a potential vasculoprotective role of vitamin D.

Neurology. 2009 Nov 25. [Epub ahead of print]






« Last Edit: 31/05/2010 15:59:00 by iko »
 

Offline iko

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Re: Is Cod Liver Oil actually good for us?
« Reply #135 on: 31/05/2010 16:00:57 »

A promise is a promise... ;)
so here you find D-vitamin safety limits:

Risk assessment for vitamin D.


Hathcock JN, Shao A, Vieth R, Heaney R.
Council for Responsible Nutrition, Washington, DC 20036-5114, USA. jhathcock@crnusa.org

The objective of this review was to apply the risk assessment methodology used by the Food and Nutrition Board (FNB) to derive a revised safe Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) for vitamin D. New data continue to emerge regarding the health benefits of vitamin D beyond its role in bone. The intakes associated with those benefits suggest a need for levels of supplementation, food fortification, or both that are higher than current levels. A prevailing concern exists, however, regarding the potential for toxicity related to excessive vitamin D intakes. The UL established by the FNB for vitamin D (50 microg, or 2000 IU) is not based on current evidence and is viewed by many as being too restrictive, thus curtailing research, commercial development, and optimization of nutritional policy. Human clinical trial data published subsequent to the establishment of the FNB vitamin D UL published in 1997 support a significantly higher UL. We present a risk assessment based on relevant, well-designed human clinical trials of vitamin D.
Collectively, the absence of toxicity in trials conducted in healthy adults that used vitamin D dose > or = 250 microg/d (10,000 IU vitamin D3) supports the confident selection of this value as the UL.

Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Jan;85(1):6-18.




Free full text to enjoy real Science!  http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/85/1/6
 

Offline iko

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Re: Is Cod Liver Oil actually good for us?
« Reply #136 on: 20/06/2010 17:06:34 »
D-vitamin newsletter!  ;D ;D ;D



Serum 25-hydroxyvitamin d and the incidence of acute viral respiratory tract infections in healthy adults.

Sabetta JR, Depetrillo P, Cipriani RJ, Smardin J, Burns LA, Landry ML.

Department of Medicine, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut, United States of America.

Abstract
BACKGROUND: Declining serum concentrations of 25-hydroxyvitamin D seen in the fall and winter as distance increases from the equator may be a factor in the seasonal increased prevalence of influenza and other viral infections. This study was done to determine if serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentrations correlated with the incidence of acute viral respiratory tract infections. METHODOLOGY/FINDINGS: In this prospective cohort study serial monthly concentrations of 25-hydroxyvitamin D were measured over the fall and winter 2009-2010 in 198 healthy adults, blinded to the nature of the substance being measured. The participants were evaluated for the development of any acute respiratory tract infections by investigators blinded to the 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentrations. The incidence of infection in participants with different concentrations of vitamin D was determined. One hundred ninety-five (98.5%) of the enrolled participants completed the study. Light skin pigmentation, lean body mass, and supplementation with vitamin D were found to correlate with higher concentrations of 25-hydroxyvitamin D. Concentrations of 38 ng/ml or more were associated with a significant (p<0.0001) two-fold reduction in the risk of developing acute respiratory tract infections and with a marked reduction in the percentages of days ill.
CONCLUSIONS/SIGNIFICANCE: Maintenance of a 25-hydroxyvitamin D serum concentration of 38 ng/ml or higher should significantly reduce the incidence of acute viral respiratory tract infections and the burden of illness caused thereby, at least during the fall and winter in temperate zones. The findings of the present study provide direction for and call for future interventional studies examining the efficacy of vitamin D supplementation in reducing the incidence and severity of specific viral infections, including influenza, in the general population and in subpopulations with lower 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentrations, such as pregnant women, dark skinned individuals, and the obese.

PLoS One. 2010 Jun 14;5(6):e11088



 

Offline iko

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Re: Is Cod Liver Oil actually good for us?
« Reply #137 on: 21/06/2010 11:11:16 »
Does vitamin d protect against cardiovascular disease?


Bassuk SS, Manson JE.

Division of Preventive Medicine, Brigham and Women's Hospital, 900 Commonwealth Avenue East, Boston, MA, 02215, USA, sbassuk@rics.bwh.harvard.edu.

Abstract
Because of its role in maintaining bone density, vitamin D has long been recognized as critical to the health of women, a group at disproportionate risk of osteoporosis. Recent data from epidemiologic and laboratory studies suggest that vitamin D may also protect against the development of cardiovascular and other chronic diseases. Because three quarters of US women (and men) have suboptimal vitamin D status, many experts advocate increasing daily recommended intakes from 200-600 IU to at least 1,000 IU, which may indeed be a prudent strategy. However, data from large randomized clinical trials testing sufficiently high doses of this vitamin for cardiovascular disease prevention-as well as to assess the overall balance of benefits and risks of such supplementation-are needed.

J Cardiovasc Transl Res. 2009 Sep;2(3):245-50. Epub 2009 Jul 17.


« Last Edit: 21/06/2010 11:19:52 by iko »
 

Offline iko

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Is Cod Liver Oil actually good for us?
« Reply #138 on: 04/05/2011 21:27:31 »

"...From a clinical perspective, vitamin D insufficiency represents the first potentially modifiable prognostic marker in chronic lymphocytic leukemia (CLL) by presenting the opportunity for patients to have their serum vitamin D checked and, if they are deficient, vitamin D supplements administered to correct the deficit."

...

CLL: a supplementary question?


Pepper C, Fegan C.
Cardiff University.

Comment on:
Blood. 2011 Feb 3;117(5):1492-8.

Abstract
In this issue of Blood, Shanafelt and colleagues provide the first evidence that vitamin D deficiency is a risk factor for disease progression in chronic lymphocytic leukemia (CLL). Their findings imply that dietary vitamin D supplementation could potentially modify the natural history of this incurable disease.

Blood. 2011 Feb 3;117(5):1439-40.





« Last Edit: 04/05/2011 21:31:24 by iko »
 

Offline iko

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Is Cod Liver Oil actually good for us?
« Reply #139 on: 04/05/2011 21:35:14 »
Ok, we seem to be almost THERE.

It's a pity we didn't start from childhood leukemias...they are not incurable, in fact, but curable in the majority of patients (well over 50%), not enough though.

 
"To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." George Orwell



If, in the near future, proper vitamin D3 supplementation improves survival in childhood leukemias...
  Well...I'm going to take a week off, a month off...maybe a whole year off!

Ikod












...and that's it my friends,
I thank you so much for your interest
in such a neglected area of human research.

Ikod
« Last Edit: 04/05/2011 21:39:24 by iko »
 

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