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Author Topic: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?  (Read 26996 times)

Offline timey

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #100 on: 26/08/2015 19:37:26 »
Oh, you know what Jeff... forgetta'bout'it!  ...It's all past tense far as I'm concerned. :)
 

Offline timey

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #101 on: 29/08/2015 01:11:35 »
Lee Smolin's book "The Trouble with Physics"...page 255-256

Quote:
"While there is today an exciting sense of progress among quantum-gravity theorists, there is also a strong expectation that the road ahead will bring at least a few surprises.  Unlike string theorists in the exhilarating days of the two superstring revolutions, few of the people working on quantum gravity believe they have their hands on a final theory.  We recognise that the accomplishments of background-independent approaches to quantum gravity are a necessary step in finishing Einstein's revolution.  They show that there can be a consistent mathematical and conceptual language that unifies quantum theory and general relativity.  This gives us something string theory does not, which is a possible framework in which to formulate the theory that solves all five of the problems I listed in chapter 1.  But we are also fairly sure that we do not yet have all the pieces.  Even with the recent successes, no idea yet has that absolute ring of truth.
When you look back at the history of physics, one thing sticks out: When the right theory is finally proposed, it triumphs quickly.  The few really good ideas about unification appear in a form that is compelling, simple, and unique; they do not come with a list of options or adjustable features. Newtons mechanics is defined by three simple laws, Newtonian gravity by a simple formula with one constant.  Special relativity was complete on arrival.  It may have taken twenty five years to fully formulate quantum mechanics, but from the beginning it was developed in concert with experiment.  Many of the key papers in the subject from 1900 on either explained a recent experimental result or made a definite prediction for an experiment that was shortly done.  The same was true of general relativity.
Thus, all the theories that triumphed had consequences for experiment that were simple to work out and could be tested within a few years.  This does not mean that the theories could be solved exactly - most theories never are.  But it does mean that physical insight led immediately to a prediction of a new physical effect.
Whatever else one says about string theory, loop quantum gravity, and other approaches, they have not delivered on that front.  The standard excuse has been that experiments on this scale are impossible to perform - but, as we have seen, such is not the case.  So there must be another reason.  I believe there is something basic we are all missing, some wrong assumption we are all making.  If this is so, then we need to isolate the wrong assumption and replace it with a new idea.
What could that wrong assumption be?  My guess is that it involves two things: the foundations of quantum mechanics and the nature of time.  We have already discussed the first; I find it hopeful that new ideas about quantum mechanics have been proposed recently, motivated by studies of quantum gravity.  But I strongly suspect that the key is time.  More and more, I have this feeling that quantum theory and general relativity are both deeply wrong about the nature of time.  It's not enough to combine them.  There is a deeper problem, perhaps going back to the origin of physics."
Unquote:

...and I reiterate this particular sentence in relation to my post, post no 49.

""My guess is that it involves two things: the foundations of quantum mechanics and the nature of time.""
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #102 on: 29/08/2015 11:36:38 »
It may be that the interaction of all the forces have a bearing upon time. The fact that gravity has the largest effect simply masks this fact. Time dilation, or more properly the change in rate of energy flux over time, is a function of time. To describe this as energy dilation would be more correct. That way the effect on particle wavelength follows naturally. Time and rate of energy flux are two facets of the same thing really.
 

Offline timey

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #103 on: 29/08/2015 11:46:46 »
So... to define this line of thinking further, according to GR and current thinking, a zero gravity field is in possession of the highest possible flux of energy?
 

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #104 on: 29/08/2015 12:42:35 »
The forces are all equal in every direction so there is no acceleration. That does not mean the energy flux is highest there. The forces are still acting. This is why it is thought that black holes form from the centre outwards.
 

Offline timey

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #105 on: 29/08/2015 14:07:20 »
So where is the highest energy flux then?
And what is the rate of time experienced there?
 

Offline timey

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #106 on: 29/08/2015 16:12:43 »
Actually Jeff, it would seem that your post is no longer missing and has returned to its former place as post 50 in reply to post 49.

I noticed during this disappearance that over 1800 views were made during this period of time.  I doubt I am the only person who noticed the post missing considering the song and dance I made over the fact.  I daresay someone would have mentioned to me my error!

Presumably my reporting this missing post as a systems error has resulted in its return?

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=59916.new#new
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #107 on: 29/08/2015 20:29:30 »
So where is the highest energy flux then?
And what is the rate of time experienced there?

That I can't answer. I have never really thought about it. It is likely in the voids between galaxies.
 

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #108 on: 29/08/2015 20:34:58 »
Actually Jeff, it would seem that your post is no longer missing and has returned to its former place as post 50 in reply to post 49.

I noticed during this disappearance that over 1800 views were made during this period of time.  I doubt I am the only person who noticed the post missing considering the song and dance I made over the fact.  I daresay someone would have mentioned to me my error!

Presumably my reporting this missing post as a systems error has resulted in its return?

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=59916.new#new

I am reviewing post #50 now and will try to let you know what I meant.
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #109 on: 29/08/2015 20:54:30 »
Nope, I'm not confusing these relativity/space time related considerations of proper time or co-ordinate time.  I do have my own ideas on time - but this thread is not my thread, nor is it in the new theories section...therefore for the purposes of this conversation I think it within the remit of accepted physics to say that we have time as a measurement and, as a separate issue, that we observe the occurrence of the phenomenon of time... and that this time is subject to change in the rate of its occurrence due to changes in the gravity field.

This is very clear reasoning and is what established physics says.

Of course my post/posts are entirely speculative, :) , is there something wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with speculation. However to convert this to theory can be a challenge.

IF we can view gravity fields on a smaller scale, as in our own personal gravity field, ie: if we get fatter we feel heavier, if we go to the moon we feel lighter... on the basis that a black hole will change the rate of time fairly drastically, 'maybe' the gravity fields of the quantum world are 'differently oriented' in relation to to time dilation.

This was one of you interesting points. The idea of a differently oriented field.

The smallest quantum package is delivered at an unbelievably small fraction of a 'second'.  Clearly Planck has used a time measurement factor in the derivation of this constant... But IF the quantum world is operating within a time structure that is different, ie not occurring at the same rate as our own, the time measurement that Planck has used to derive these units of Planck time as constant would be rendered inadequate in measuring the entirety of the quantum world.  The gaps between the quantum leaps being the point of relevance here.

This relates to the granularity of the universe at extremely small scales. While interesting it is also difficult.
 

Offline timey

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #110 on: 29/08/2015 21:08:31 »
Well, thank you for your more detailed reply.  The meaning of your post no 50 was not the issue. (No 75 was highly questionable though)

The issue being that this post now showing as post no 50 was missing for quite some time, with my reply to your reply to my post no 49 being post 50.  Now your post is mysteriously back!

I think it is more as to wether you deleted this post or not that is the question here...
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #111 on: 29/08/2015 21:16:27 »
I didn't delete it. I don't care if you believe that or not. I had nothing to gain.
 

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #112 on: 29/08/2015 21:22:28 »
Yes post #75 was unfair. I get frustrated by posters that put forward proposed theories without the mathematical skills to develop them. I have worked very hard to learn the required maths and I am still far from where I need to be to develop my ideas.
 

Offline timey

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #113 on: 29/08/2015 21:54:26 »
I didn't delete it. I don't care if you believe that or not. I had nothing to gain.

Good, I'm really glad, it was my preferred scenario... I'll refer the matter back to management as system error.

Yes post #75 was unfair. I get frustrated by posters that put forward proposed theories without the mathematical skills to develop them. I have worked very hard to learn the required maths and I am still far from where I need to be to develop my ideas.

Ok, I can sympathise, but I didn't come here looking to be the butt of a mathematicians frustration.  I came here for mathematical help with some unique and interesting new ideas that are based in applied logic because I have, (through no fault of my own I might add) no training at all in maths.  In fact everything I know, across the board, is 'self taught'!

Actually, on reflection I think it fair to tell you that it was the fact that your post suggested that I should further my idea through investigation of the calculation of quantum probability that I found annoying, as this is entirely contrary to the very nature of my suggestion.  However it does occur to me (slowly, I admit) that the implications of my notion have perhaps evaded you...
The smallest quantum package is delivered at an unbelievably small fraction of a 'second'.  Clearly Planck has used a time measurement factor in the derivation of this constant... But IF the quantum world is operating within a time structure that is different, ie not occurring at the same rate as our own, the time measurement that Planck has used to derive these units of Planck time as constant would be rendered inadequate in measuring the entirety of the quantum world.  The gaps between the quantum leaps being the point of relevance here.

This relates to the granularity of the universe at extremely small scales. While interesting it is also difficult.

So the implications of there possibly being differently oriented gravity fields with regards to time dilation within the quantum region in relation to Planck's measurement of Planck units that were measured using a  time measurement that ticks at the rate that 'we' experience are lost on you then?
 

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #114 on: 29/08/2015 22:04:50 »
So the implications of there possibly being differently oriented gravity fields with regards to time dilation within the quantum region in relation to Planck's measurement of Planck units that were measured using a  time measurement that ticks at the rate that 'we' experience are lost on you then?

If you can restate that in terms that are coherent then maybe I could reply.
 

Offline timey

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #115 on: 29/08/2015 22:34:32 »
The smallest quantum package is delivered at an unbelievably small fraction of a 'second'.  Clearly Planck has used a time measurement factor in the derivation of this constant... But IF the quantum world is operating within a time structure that is different, ie not occurring at the same rate as our own, the time measurement that Planck has used to derive these units of Planck time as constant would be rendered inadequate in measuring the entirety of the quantum world.  The gaps between the quantum leaps being the point of relevance here.

Do you understand why any investigation into time dilation in the quantum region with regards to the mathematical structure of Planck's h constant would not be productively founded in investigating how to calculate quantum probability?
« Last Edit: 29/08/2015 22:41:34 by timey »
 

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #116 on: 29/08/2015 22:47:40 »
If you are stating that there may be a gravitational component to uncertainty at the Planck scale then the onus is on you to prove it.
 

Offline timey

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #117 on: 29/08/2015 23:05:26 »
If you are stating that there may be a gravitational component to uncertainty at the Planck scale then the onus is on you to prove it.

Well really I do believe that the 'onus' is a case of presenting the idea as an application of logic and suggesting relevant avenues of experimentation, which I have done...

Plenty of contributions have been made to physics by non-mathematicians.

Of course, because I am unable to investigate these ideas mathematically myself and have come here to share them, this does leave the door open for an interested mathematician to further 'my' ideas into a more rigidly formulated theory... or ... into the trash can. :D
 

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #118 on: 30/08/2015 00:11:51 »
Good luck with that.
 

Offline timey

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #119 on: 30/08/2015 00:19:15 »
Good luck with that.

Why thank you Jeff. Good luck with the gravitons...
 

Offline mathew_orman

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #120 on: 31/08/2015 10:23:09 »
Photon cannot be slowed, sped-up or stopped. I can be remitted, or absorbed at intersection with atomic structure.
 

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Re: How does light speed up when it exits a denser material?
« Reply #120 on: 31/08/2015 10:23:09 »

 

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