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Author Topic: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.  (Read 9403 times)

Offline cheryl j

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Some friends of mine were having a discussion about this, and not being that knowledgeable about physics, I had little to add, but I did wonder about some of their assertions.

This was the original question that started the discussion:

"So let's say the Universe started as a quantum singularity, an energy-neutral vacuum tunneling event leading to a Big Bang or Big Smear or Big Whatever. And it's been all downhill since then....

That tunneling event occurred because of the laws of quantum mechanics, right? The laws of physics are responsible for creation.

But means that these laws existed *before* the Big Event. So...where did they exist? Where were they kept?

And why those laws, and not some other?"


From there the discussion went off in a variety of directions, some involving multiverses, meta-laws, the law of Fecundity, the Platonic realm, and prime movers, ie God (of course.)

What I'm wondering is does the question even make sense in the first place? Does it make sense to talk about laws existing "before" or apart from the physical things they refer to?

While googling stuff, I did see this comment from Stephen Hawking “Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.”

Does Hawking's comment support my friend's statement, contradict it, or neither?
« Last Edit: 17/03/2014 14:28:07 by cheryl j »


 

Offline Bill S

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #1 on: 18/03/2014 16:09:30 »
Quote from: Cheryl
While googling stuff, I did see this comment from Stephen Hawking “Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.”

I have argued in other threads that there cannot ever have been nothing, otherwise there would be nothing now.   I am going to avoid possibly muddying the the waters by coming in with that at this point, but what I would say is that "nothing" in this sort of context, rarely means absolutely nothing.  Scientific "nothing" tends to be a bit "somethingy"
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #2 on: 18/03/2014 18:34:47 »
At present I don't think anyone can determine what happened at or just immediately after the big bang. That is all anyone can say for certain.
 

Offline acecharly

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #3 on: 23/03/2014 19:50:19 »
There may have been nothing before the big bang but nothing refers to this universe we are in, what lies outside it nobody can currently know.

I believe the laws of physics are standard personally. Its like saying 2+2 isnt 4 no matter what universe your in that cannot change. I think the answer to everything lies in maths and the universe we live in is basically a mathmatical model.
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #4 on: 24/03/2014 21:59:59 »
Quote from: acecharly
I think the answer to everything lies in maths and the universe we live in is basically a mathmatical model.

From a different perspective, one could argue that it just happens that mathematics is the best "language" we have yet discovered to help us understand the Universe. 

Words can also do a good job in describing the Universe.  In fact, they are needed to "support" the maths; but no one says that the Universe is a linguistic model.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #5 on: 26/03/2014 16:37:43 »
Yep it needs 'laws'. But, it doesn't need to be recognizable as the laws we see here. I think 'properties' is a better name for it myself. As long as we think that we can draw conclusions to a beginning from experiments done today we presume the 'laws' defining it to have (pre)existed then too, defining our universe. On the other hand you can't exclude different initial parameters being possible for what will become a SpaceTime. As soon as a arrow is introduced you must find laws and repeatable experiments. Without those you get to a magic universe, and that one have no logic what so ever. If it was Heinlein or Asimov that wrote that sufficient advanced magic is inseparable from advanced science I don't remember, but it is still wrong. Science will have a logic, magic won't.
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #6 on: 26/03/2014 21:09:36 »
Quote
If it was Heinlein or Asimov that wrote that sufficient advanced magic is inseparable from advanced science

I think it was Arthur C Clarke; and it was the other way round.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #7 on: 26/03/2014 21:38:55 »
:)

heh, been some time since I read it, and it took me some time to see where it lead me wrong too.
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #8 on: 27/03/2014 00:47:17 »
:)

heh, been some time since I read it, and it took me some time to see where it lead me wrong too.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #9 on: 28/03/2014 22:26:38 »
I think my friend's point was that some how information in the platonic form per-existed the physical.I think he was implying that somehow information or knowledge is the basis of everything. But I don't see how physical laws can be separate from the physical things they describe. And I was just wondering what other people thought about this.
 

Offline Omaughuntinaser

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #10 on: 31/03/2014 14:56:20 »
problem is, there never was a Big Bang!

I find it most of the time hilarious and amusing if  students or  worse scientists',
tell me with a straight face that someting did rise out of 'nothing'.
They don't understand it, they don't get it, they are only indoctrinated with this
ridiculous theory! But hey! quit! the Emperor has no clothes!



 

Offline Pmb

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #11 on: 31/03/2014 15:14:20 »
problem is, there never was a Big Bang!

I find it most of the time hilarious and amusing if  students or  worse scientists',
tell me with a straight face that someting did rise out of 'nothing'.
They don't understand it, they don't get it, they are only indoctrinated with this
ridiculous theory! But hey! quit! the Emperor has no clothes!




It seems to me that the joke is on you because there is nothing wrong with the idea of something arising out of nothing. Scientists like myself laugh when people make the kinds of comments that you just made. You assume that the laws of physics require something to arise out of something else. However its conceivable that the laws of physics were not always the same and that there was a time when something could arise out of nothing.

There is a theory called the "zero-energy universe" theory which states that the total energy of the universe is now and has always been zero. The positive energy comes from rest energy and kinetic energy while the negative energy comes from gravitational potential energy - the total sum equaling zero. According to the relation E = mc^2 this means we can have a universe created out of nothing even if we assume that the laws of physics have always been the same as they are now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-energy_universe

Please ask and learn before you laugh at things you don't understand. When scientists come up with these ideas and it passes muster among scientists then there's a damn good reason for it.
 

Offline Omaughuntinaser

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #12 on: 31/03/2014 17:34:26 »

It seems to me that the joke is on you because there is nothing wrong with the idea of something arising out of nothing. Scientists like myself laugh when people make the kinds of comments that you just made. You assume that the laws of physics require something to arise out of something else. However its conceivable that the laws of physics were not always the same and that there was a time when something could arise out of nothing.

There is a theory called the "zero-energy universe" theory which states that the total energy of the universe is now and has always been zero. The positive energy comes from rest energy and kinetic energy while the negative energy comes from gravitational potential energy - the total sum equaling zero. According to the relation E = mc^2 this means we can have a universe created out of nothing even if we assume that the laws of physics have always been the same as they are now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-energy_universe

Please ask and learn before you laugh at things you don't understand. When scientists come up with these ideas and it passes muster among scientists then there's a damn good reason for it.

still another enormous good laugh! o man o man, i have learned this ridiculous things when I studied physics/math at a university.So , saying that I don't 'understand' it is really a bit cheap and dumb and what have you.

I know you take all this crap seriously because you have 'studieeeeed' and are indoctrinated with this crap and are not able to see how dumb it all is.

Come on now, you are using a very very strange and dumb method.
Because it is all very strange, creating something out of nothing, you, just with a slight of hand, do the following:


Quote
However its conceivable that the laws of physics were not always the same and that there was a time when something could arise out of nothing.[/color]

and voila! your problem is solved.

Wel, you just proved to me how stupid it all is!


maybe read some good books who dare to be critical about all this nonsense.



yeah yeah. I know you have to defend your belief system for economic reasons.



Because it is conceivable that the laws of physics change when I want I can levitate!



Come on, put some good thinking in this!

But I know you can't because school is for making children dumb ( no joke!)



« Last Edit: 31/03/2014 17:43:44 by Omaughuntinaser »
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #13 on: 01/04/2014 22:19:20 »

It seems to me that the joke is on you because there is nothing wrong with the idea of something arising out of nothing. Scientists like myself laugh when people make the kinds of comments that you just made. You assume that the laws of physics require something to arise out of something else. However its conceivable that the laws of physics were not always the same and that there was a time when something could arise out of nothing.

There is a theory called the "zero-energy universe" theory which states that the total energy of the universe is now and has always been zero. The positive energy comes from rest energy and kinetic energy while the negative energy comes from gravitational potential energy - the total sum equaling zero. According to the relation E = mc^2 this means we can have a universe created out of nothing even if we assume that the laws of physics have always been the same as they are now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-energy_universe

Please ask and learn before you laugh at things you don't understand. When scientists come up with these ideas and it passes muster among scientists then there's a damn good reason for it.

still another enormous good laugh! o man o man, i have learned this ridiculous things when I studied physics/math at a university.So , saying that I don't 'understand' it is really a bit cheap and dumb and what have you.

I know you take all this crap seriously because you have 'studieeeeed' and are indoctrinated with this crap and are not able to see how dumb it all is.

Come on now, you are using a very very strange and dumb method.
Because it is all very strange, creating something out of nothing, you, just with a slight of hand, do the following:


Quote
However its conceivable that the laws of physics were not always the same and that there was a time when something could arise out of nothing.[/color]

and voila! your problem is solved.

Wel, you just proved to me how stupid it all is!


maybe read some good books who dare to be critical about all this nonsense.



yeah yeah. I know you have to defend your belief system for economic reasons.



Because it is conceivable that the laws of physics change when I want I can levitate!



Come on, put some good thinking in this!

But I know you can't because school is for making children dumb ( no joke!)

I always believe in looking at data to verify things for myself. I had up until recently thought that instead of the universe expanding more and more rapidly it was actually slowing down. So I looked at the data and did my own calculations using a logical approach and in fact found the theory of increasing expansion velocity 100% valid. I had been looking at the data the wrong way round which is easy to do when the data goes backward in time. This means that the universe is highly likely to have originated from a source that may or may not have been singular but it strongly indicates a big bang event. You can determine this for yourself by properly analyzing the redshift data. Things can work out to be right even if counter-intuitive. If you feel as you do then put the evidence together and have it peer reviewed. It is no use just laughing at professionals because in the end the laugh is on you.
 

Offline Omaughuntinaser

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #14 on: 02/04/2014 08:06:31 »

I always believe in looking at data to verify things for myself. I had up until recently thought that instead of the universe expanding more and more rapidly it was actually slowing down. So I looked at the data and did my own calculations using a logical approach and in fact found the theory of increasing expansion velocity 100% valid. I had been looking at the data the wrong way round which is easy to do when the data goes backward in time. This means that the universe is highly likely to have originated from a source that may or may not have been singular but it strongly indicates a big bang event. You can determine this for yourself by properly analyzing the redshift data. Things can work out to be right even if counter-intuitive. If you feel as you do then put the evidence together and have it peer reviewed. It is no use just laughing at professionals because in the end the laugh is on you.

Well, I am still laughing because it still is idiotic to say the least.
And especially 'professionals' don't really get it.
Now, what you wrote above, well, why should I believe you?
I can write exactly tne same in reverse, stating I have done calculations bla bla bla
and I have seen there is no 'expansion". Now what?
It is even more then idiotic that you won't adress the difficulty from
'nothing' to 'something" Furthermore, can't you be the victim of your own
beliefsystem, so that 'data' that didn't  fit is ignored, (That does happen unconsciously), and there is so much more. You see I can't take what you write seriously. If I had done the same you would say that also. And rightly so!

Now, as far as the more than hilariouss Big Bang goes, well, offcourse one gets a Big Bang if one discards all data that doesn't validate this nonsense,
I am now not referring to you now , but to the official magazines of this fairy tale.

You see, 'science' isn't ment to find truth but is ment to bend the truth!.


Otherwise science would have been far far more progressed.So you see,
´science` is holding us back while in the same time we are indoctrinated to think it is progressing.


Now, how come again, that ´something´ can arise from ´nothing`?

yes, I am still laughing and louder with every posting.

that´s ok, I like that.


 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #15 on: 02/04/2014 11:40:35 »
Quote from: Omaughuntinaser
it is conceivable that the laws of physics change when I want I can levitate!

I would certainly appreciate a video of that!
Then I would have to conceive of some laws of physics to change...
Please upload the video to YouTube, and insert the link here!
 

Offline Spatanjo

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #16 on: 02/04/2014 12:36:58 »
I want to say this site Very quick to read a lot of the same by this section must admit that it would be very good.
 

Offline Omaughuntinaser

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #17 on: 02/04/2014 16:16:56 »
Quote from: Omaughuntinaser
it is conceivable that the laws of physics change when I want I can levitate!

I would certainly appreciate a video of that!
Then I would have to conceive of some laws of physics to change...
Please upload the video to YouTube, and insert the link here!


lol


you don't get it, do you?
I am stating the same as one other does, but know it has to be seen as ridiculous,

o man o man. a lot of people here have very rigid belief systems.

(In the mean time, please show me a video of the Biggie Bangie,I bet you can't!

o man this is really more then ridiculous,


Anyway I have always a lot of fun when I see people trying to defend a more then ridiculous an very rigid belief system ( that is 'science')
« Last Edit: 02/04/2014 16:21:42 by Omaughuntinaser »
 

Offline Omaughuntinaser

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #18 on: 02/04/2014 16:20:07 »
I want to say this site Very quick to read a lot of the same by this section must admit that it would be very good.

really?
 

Offline Omaughuntinaser

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #19 on: 02/04/2014 16:28:43 »
here something to chew on!

Quote
Big Bang Never Happened Home Page and Summary

In 1991, my book, the Big Bang Never Happened(Vintage), presented evidence that the Big Bang theory was contradicted by observations and that another approach, plasma cosmology, which hypothesized a universe without begin or end, far better explained what we know of the cosmos. The book set off a considerable debate. Since then, observations have only further confirmed these conclusions, although the Big Bang remains by far the most widely accepted theory of cosmology.

http://bigbangneverhappened.org/


I always ask myself the question why 'scientists' and 'professors' are always so extremely dumb, and close minded. The answer is simple, 'science' is just like a 'religion'

Now, please pray everyday to your school or university, really, that helps!


« Last Edit: 02/04/2014 16:45:10 by Omaughuntinaser »
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #20 on: 02/04/2014 20:19:34 »

I always believe in looking at data to verify things for myself. I had up until recently thought that instead of the universe expanding more and more rapidly it was actually slowing down. So I looked at the data and did my own calculations using a logical approach and in fact found the theory of increasing expansion velocity 100% valid. I had been looking at the data the wrong way round which is easy to do when the data goes backward in time. This means that the universe is highly likely to have originated from a source that may or may not have been singular but it strongly indicates a big bang event. You can determine this for yourself by properly analyzing the redshift data. Things can work out to be right even if counter-intuitive. If you feel as you do then put the evidence together and have it peer reviewed. It is no use just laughing at professionals because in the end the laugh is on you.

Well, I am still laughing because it still is idiotic to say the least.
And especially 'professionals' don't really get it.
Now, what you wrote above, well, why should I believe you?
I can write exactly tne same in reverse, stating I have done calculations bla bla bla
and I have seen there is no 'expansion". Now what?
It is even more then idiotic that you won't adress the difficulty from
'nothing' to 'something" Furthermore, can't you be the victim of your own
beliefsystem, so that 'data' that didn't  fit is ignored, (That does happen unconsciously), and there is so much more. You see I can't take what you write seriously. If I had done the same you would say that also. And rightly so!

Now, as far as the more than hilariouss Big Bang goes, well, offcourse one gets a Big Bang if one discards all data that doesn't validate this nonsense,
I am now not referring to you now , but to the official magazines of this fairy tale.

You see, 'science' isn't ment to find truth but is ment to bend the truth!.


Otherwise science would have been far far more progressed.So you see,
´science` is holding us back while in the same time we are indoctrinated to think it is progressing.


Now, how come again, that ´something´ can arise from ´nothing`?

yes, I am still laughing and louder with every posting.

that´s ok, I like that.


Firstly, where did I say something could come out of nothing? Secondly, I am agnostic. I don't care either way. Whichever is true is fine by me. However, a compelling theory with much experimental evidence and verifiable data would be needed to overturn current theory. That is just the way it is. So much evidence points to a big bang that it is hard to argue against and believe me I have tried to argue that case in the past. Now I have actually changed my opinion.
 

Offline Omaughuntinaser

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #21 on: 02/04/2014 20:25:32 »
Firstly, where did I say something could come out of nothing? Secondly, I am agnostic. I don't care either way. Whichever is true is fine by me. However, a compelling theory with much experimental evidence and verifiable data would be needed to overturn current theory. That is just the way it is. So much evidence points to a big bang that it is hard to argue against and believe me I have tried to argue that case in the past. Now I have actually changed my opinion.

Wel, if one beliefs in a Biggie Bangiie someting has come out of nothing ;)
Agnostic? ok, so? what are you saying?
And 'this is just the way is is'???? yes, If one surpress all information that
leads to something else.
And as it seems you haven't seen or read the website about this?

The whole Biggie Bangie is more than ridiculous. it has never existed.
The whole theory is full of enormous Big Holes.
sorry, this is the way  it is. ;)

 

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #22 on: 04/04/2014 02:04:16 »
Firstly, where did I say something could come out of nothing? Secondly, I am agnostic. I don't care either way. Whichever is true is fine by me. However, a compelling theory with much experimental evidence and verifiable data would be needed to overturn current theory. That is just the way it is. So much evidence points to a big bang that it is hard to argue against and believe me I have tried to argue that case in the past. Now I have actually changed my opinion.

Wel, if one beliefs in a Biggie Bangiie someting has come out of nothing ;)
Agnostic? ok, so? what are you saying?
And 'this is just the way is is'???? yes, If one surpress all information that
leads to something else.
And as it seems you haven't seen or read the website about this?

The whole Biggie Bangie is more than ridiculous. it has never existed.
The whole theory is full of enormous Big Holes.
sorry, this is the way  it is. ;)

This might be of interest, especially the COBE data.

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/lerner_errors.html

And this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background
"2014   Researchers collaborating on the BICEP2 experiment announce the detection of the first direct evidence for cosmic inflation.[34]"

Or is this all smoke and mirrors too. Real data, real evidence.
 

Offline Omaughuntinaser

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #23 on: 04/04/2014 06:52:15 »
This might be of interest, especially the COBE data.

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/lerner_errors.html

And this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background
"2014   Researchers collaborating on the BICEP2 experiment announce the detection of the first direct evidence for cosmic inflation.[34]"

Or is this all smoke and mirrors too. Real data, real evidence.


I will look into this, however, I dont trust wikipedia one bit, because wikipedia is used to guard mainstreamscience bullshit. that is, it is a gatekeeper.

So, we wll see if it is 'real data, real evidence'

However, you have already assumed that that is so.

May I ask on what grounds?



and have you read the website about there being no Biggie Bangie?

I think I know....
 

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #24 on: 04/04/2014 17:39:02 »
This might be of interest, especially the COBE data.

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/lerner_errors.html

And this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background
"2014   Researchers collaborating on the BICEP2 experiment announce the detection of the first direct evidence for cosmic inflation.[34]"

Or is this all smoke and mirrors too. Real data, real evidence.


I will look into this, however, I dont trust wikipedia one bit, because wikipedia is used to guard mainstreamscience bullshit. that is, it is a gatekeeper.

So, we wll see if it is 'real data, real evidence'

However, you have already assumed that that is so.

May I ask on what grounds?



and have you read the website about there being no Biggie Bangie?

I think I know....

Yes I have read the website. Not thoroughly but I get the gist. Yes it is a very interesting idea and I have thought of similar things in the past. I could never get anything else to explain the redshift. It's not just the redshift but the fact that the galaxies have evident velocities. In a static universe this is difficult to explain unless the system is oscillating between an expanding and contracting state. If this view was to hold there would be a rippling effect in the collected data. If the universe where infinite then the wavelength of an oscillation would have to extend beyond the visible size of the universe which would be very inconvenient evidentially. How could it ever be proved?
 

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Re: Did the laws of physics exist before the big bang.
« Reply #24 on: 04/04/2014 17:39:02 »

 

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