The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Near Death Experiences  (Read 31702 times)

Offline roarer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Near Death Experiences
« on: 13/08/2006 09:26:00 »
I am submitting this post on this forum because recently here on Australian TV a program was shown on this subject and   where it was shown that scientific experiments are being carried out in Canada and perhaps other places regarding this  what may be described as a natural  phenomenon and which occurs  initially within the brain upon the cessation of life. A further conclusion is that the brain is reacting naturally in a way as to make dying (for the human being as tranquil and as unstressful as possible). Thereafter the scientific conclusion continues....once death is established..there is a nothingness...a void.
There is one qualification however where some who had NDE experiences were of the "demonic" nature which can be described as perhaps a vision of hell. However the majority experienced "tranquil" NDE's. My theory (ah yes and yet another) is that the people who experience demonic NDE's are being treated (not unlike others who experience "tranquil" NDE's) by drugs by medical staff (for the purpose of bringing them back to life) and that these particular people are effected by these drugs (due to some allergy to them which is medically unkown) and where it seriously and psychologically distorts this natural phenomenon which prevents them from experiencing a "tranquil" NDE and instead they experience some sort of "psychidelic" effect.
These experiments do raise some  questions rather than answer them.
As the whole world revolves around logical argument...if death results in nothingness and voidness what would be the point of nature in making the initial  effort in embellishing the "road to death" when the outcome is nothingness anyway? Alternatively...why not a sudden void......sudden nothingness?
On the evidence we have presently therefore, is that the natural processes of embellishing death is for the purpose of a....void outcome.......a pointless exercise! My conclusion is that nature does not act in a pointless fashion.
It must follow therefore that these scientific experiments are not proving or disproving an "afterlife" They are merely reinforcing, by circumstantial evidence and logic....that there may be an "afterlife"


 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #1 on: 13/08/2006 11:51:48 »
These experiments probably neither prove nor disprove anything, but neither do I believe that your interpretation is correct.

The human body is a complex system, and it does not have an 'off' switch death does not come about because all of a sudden someone pulls the power cable for the human body, it comes about because the human body and mind are overwhelmed and bit by bit begin to fail.  At a cellular level, and to a substantial degree at the organ level, there is a clear and consistent progression of the sequences in which this failure occurs.  Clearly, some of the simpler systems will survive longer, and the more complex systems will fail sooner.  Also, the body will try and put greater efforts to protect some of the core systems than some of the peripheral systems.

The pain system clearly is there as an early warning of danger in order to allow the body to respond to that danger.  When the body is already severely damaged, is is a little too late for early warning systems to be of use.  The body at that time does not need early warning, it needs damage control and repair systems to be the priority.  Ultimately, if that damage control and repair fails, then there is no hope left, but long before that happens, the early warning systems start to become redundant (particularly since many of the escape systems that they would have triggered are already so compromised that the body no longer has any means of responding to that warning anyway).



George
 

Offline thebrain13

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #2 on: 13/08/2006 20:49:55 »
where do you sign up for the near death experimentation? Im looking for some extra cash.
 

Offline roarer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #3 on: 17/08/2006 04:29:13 »
yes I wholly agree Another_Someone that the body does "progressively" (for want of a better word) die....but there remains valid questions to this...and one is "Why does nature (as this seems to be a natural phenomenon) take the trouble to  warn us in anticipation (of this "progressive death") by way of an NDE (as you are implying that this is that warning) when the outcome is just voidness ? For example...why not the alternative......."a progressive death"...but in the absence of any anticipatory warning.
This is like someone who jumps off a very high bridge in order to commit suicide into a river and you come along in a helicopter beside him (whilst he is on the way down) and telling him..."listen buddy you are going to die when you hit that river" I think you get the gist.
 

Offline Karen W.

  • Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *****
  • Posts: 31653
  • Thanked: 5 times
  • "come fly with me"
    • View Profile
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #4 on: 14/09/2006 08:55:26 »
Interesting topic! I am going to listen in if you all don't mind!!

Karen
 

Offline roarer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #5 on: 17/09/2006 02:04:00 »
This forum requires an immense amount of analytical thinking by the contributors in order to credibly commence a, or respond to,topics. Now that Karen the moderator has nudged it along...I remain unresponded to it unless my last post is challenged. And this is where it gets hard....and that analytical thinking comes in. This is the beauty of a forum like this.....one mind is never enough!! It takes many minds...but there must be challenges otherwise that advantage is lost.
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #6 on: 17/09/2006 02:18:14 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer

yes I wholly agree Another_Someone that the body does "progressively" (for want of a better word) die....but there remains valid questions to this...and one is "Why does nature (as this seems to be a natural phenomenon) take the trouble to  warn us in anticipation (of this "progressive death") by way of an NDE (as you are implying that this is that warning) when the outcome is just voidness ? For example...why not the alternative......."a progressive death"...but in the absence of any anticipatory warning.
This is like someone who jumps off a very high bridge in order to commit suicide into a river and you come along in a helicopter beside him (whilst he is on the way down) and telling him..."listen buddy you are going to die when you hit that river" I think you get the gist.



I don't think I was saying that an NDE is a warning, but rather that it is a failure to warn.

The warning systems are the pain that you feel when you get a serious trauma.  What I was saying is not like a helicopter trying to shout to you that you are about to die, but rather it is like the man standing beside you on the bridge telling you that you are going to die if you jump off the bridge, but after you jump, the sound of that man becomes fainter and fainter until you fail to hear him at all.



George
 

Offline Karen W.

  • Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *****
  • Posts: 31653
  • Thanked: 5 times
  • "come fly with me"
    • View Profile
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #7 on: 17/09/2006 08:29:42 »
Hi George so good to see you back!! I was headed to bed when I thought I should stop and see where this topic has led...


 So I thought I would say; I have had 3 near death experiences 4 if you want to include incident drowning as a child.. at which time I felt the same thing although I don't believe my heart stopped on the latter water experience! I only recall bits and peices of what I felt during the time I was gone if you will from my body! I can only tell you I came away with a profound knowledge of God or spirituality or whatever you choose to use for your own expression of God. I was 6 months old the first experience. Within a short time, 24 hours or more time and shifts of sugical staff I was pronounced dead three times. I won't go into details, you can look up in previous posts if you would like to read more, but I find this topic interesting as I don't find it  a lesson or warning as there was no fear, but an oportunitiy to learn more and grow.. in the knowledge that there is so much more.I had really not thought about warning systems until last october and again a couple weeks ago.. Your body has a great system of nerves and capacity to feel and respond to sickness and changes inside you, which act like an indicator of atmosheric readings for you to acknowledge what your internal organs are telling you and how your body is working...That is if you so choose to listen to your body! A couple weeks ago I was very stressed and not doing well mentally due to such stress. In my absent minded state I went many days forgetting to take my meds... I have a heart problem a murmur left from my congenital heart problems.. two rounds of open heart surgery! So needless to say I had developed an infection without knowing after a recent surgery, and had  alot of water build up around my heart.. I noticed some weird things and took myself to the doctor.. He was very angry with me and immediately started a series of antibiotics and water pills and moitored me closely.. Greatfully I had a friend who insisted that I get checked, I listened for the first time in my life  and if I hadn't I wouldn't be here today! I am still whipped tired as messing with the ticker seems to wear your tail feathers out! I thought I was catching a bug!! Anyway my body was slapping me in the face with warnings, but I was not taking them seriously! Pain is serious warning to get help! THats all beside the point I have a definite opinion for myself and what I KNOW to be my own self absolute truth in this area... But I will say science should go hand in hand with spirtuality as we have these incrdeible bodies that are capable of such understanding and knowledge..that I believe we were meant to have knowledge and use it to help ourselves and others. We need to listen learn and explore untill we find the anwers what ever they may be for ourselves, My answer may not be yours, but for myself it is my absolute truth. I am not a debaiter, but I do like to hear all the sides.. and find life facinating to behold!! Please do go on as I find both sides very intrigueing! I'll not take sides LOL!!


Karen
 

Offline roarer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #8 on: 17/09/2006 09:26:42 »
Telling someone s/he is going to die PRIOR to jumping off a bridge is BEFORE THE FACT of death. The NDE is NOT before the fact of death..but rather, and this is at worst case scenario, DURING the fact of death....where the hospital staff in the ER is using shock and/or other implements, some drugs,  to restore the essential bodily functions to normal. This is when the patient has NO HEARBEAT where s/he is TECHNICALLY dead.... or where s/he has ALREADY jumped off that bridge..is either dead...or on the way to death
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #9 on: 18/09/2006 03:46:45 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer

Telling someone s/he is going to die PRIOR to jumping off a bridge is BEFORE THE FACT of death. The NDE is NOT before the fact of death..but rather, and this is at worst case scenario, DURING the fact of death....where the hospital staff in the ER is using shock and/or other implements, some drugs,  to restore the essential bodily functions to normal. This is when the patient has NO HEARBEAT where s/he is TECHNICALLY dead.... or where s/he has ALREADY jumped off that bridge..is either dead...or on the way to death



The fact that it is referred to as a Near Death Experience might just hint at the fact that an NDE is not actually during death, but close to death.

Semantics aside, yes I did understand what your analogy meant, and that the NDE was the process of falling.

What I was saying was that the NDE was in effect a loss of reality, a loss of contact with the guy who is telling you are in danger.  The NDE is not a danger signal, it is the loss of danger signals.



George
 

Offline Karen W.

  • Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *****
  • Posts: 31653
  • Thanked: 5 times
  • "come fly with me"
    • View Profile
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #10 on: 18/09/2006 04:35:21 »
Nice  points George!

Karen
 

Offline roarer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #11 on: 17/09/2006 02:04:00 »
This forum requires an immense amount of analytical thinking by the contributors in order to credibly commence a, or respond to,topics. Now that Karen the moderator has nudged it along...I remain unresponded to it unless my last post is challenged. And this is where it gets hard....and that analytical thinking comes in. This is the beauty of a forum like this.....one mind is never enough!! It takes many minds...but there must be challenges otherwise that advantage is lost.
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #12 on: 17/09/2006 02:18:14 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer

yes I wholly agree Another_Someone that the body does "progressively" (for want of a better word) die....but there remains valid questions to this...and one is "Why does nature (as this seems to be a natural phenomenon) take the trouble to  warn us in anticipation (of this "progressive death") by way of an NDE (as you are implying that this is that warning) when the outcome is just voidness ? For example...why not the alternative......."a progressive death"...but in the absence of any anticipatory warning.
This is like someone who jumps off a very high bridge in order to commit suicide into a river and you come along in a helicopter beside him (whilst he is on the way down) and telling him..."listen buddy you are going to die when you hit that river" I think you get the gist.



I don't think I was saying that an NDE is a warning, but rather that it is a failure to warn.

The warning systems are the pain that you feel when you get a serious trauma.  What I was saying is not like a helicopter trying to shout to you that you are about to die, but rather it is like the man standing beside you on the bridge telling you that you are going to die if you jump off the bridge, but after you jump, the sound of that man becomes fainter and fainter until you fail to hear him at all.



George
 

Offline roarer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #13 on: 17/09/2006 09:26:42 »
Telling someone s/he is going to die PRIOR to jumping off a bridge is BEFORE THE FACT of death. The NDE is NOT before the fact of death..but rather, and this is at worst case scenario, DURING the fact of death....where the hospital staff in the ER is using shock and/or other implements, some drugs,  to restore the essential bodily functions to normal. This is when the patient has NO HEARBEAT where s/he is TECHNICALLY dead.... or where s/he has ALREADY jumped off that bridge..is either dead...or on the way to death
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #14 on: 18/09/2006 03:46:45 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer

Telling someone s/he is going to die PRIOR to jumping off a bridge is BEFORE THE FACT of death. The NDE is NOT before the fact of death..but rather, and this is at worst case scenario, DURING the fact of death....where the hospital staff in the ER is using shock and/or other implements, some drugs,  to restore the essential bodily functions to normal. This is when the patient has NO HEARBEAT where s/he is TECHNICALLY dead.... or where s/he has ALREADY jumped off that bridge..is either dead...or on the way to death



The fact that it is referred to as a Near Death Experience might just hint at the fact that an NDE is not actually during death, but close to death.

Semantics aside, yes I did understand what your analogy meant, and that the NDE was the process of falling.

What I was saying was that the NDE was in effect a loss of reality, a loss of contact with the guy who is telling you are in danger.  The NDE is not a danger signal, it is the loss of danger signals.



George
 

Offline Karen W.

  • Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *****
  • Posts: 31653
  • Thanked: 5 times
  • "come fly with me"
    • View Profile
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #15 on: 18/09/2006 04:35:21 »
Nice  points George!

Karen
 

Offline roarer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #16 on: 19/09/2006 04:21:05 »
Now I see...what you are saying is that quote'"the NDE is a loss of danger signals" end quote. If I understand that correctly then this means that you think that the  NDE (as in concurrence with many skeptics) is a naturally occuring calming effect just prior to death for the purpose of sliding us into that death in the absence of any stress (mental or otherwise.).
 I am not religious..I was brought up a Catholic..but I have not been to any religious functions for years...some 30 years or more...I do not believe in ANY religion whatsoever. I think that they actually DIVIDE rather than unite their populations. On top of that nature has equipped the human with a conscience and the capability to know right from wrong...and that is all that is required. Instructions from religions regarding rights and wrongs etc are in my view superfluous.In addition as the instructions are given my human beings they are open to misrepresentation and/or misinterpretation...and may be wholly incorrect.
I do believe however that there is life after death and that some supernatural being (we call God) does exist if only in name only.And the NDE is but a glance into it.
 

Offline Karen W.

  • Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *****
  • Posts: 31653
  • Thanked: 5 times
  • "come fly with me"
    • View Profile
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #17 on: 19/09/2006 04:54:59 »
It is certainly a glance into that! I agree on that point from my experiences!!

Karen
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #18 on: 20/09/2006 01:35:51 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer
Now I see...what you are saying is that quote'"the NDE is a loss of danger signals" end quote. If I understand that correctly then this means that you think that the  NDE (as in concurrence with many skeptics) is a naturally occuring calming effect just prior to death



Yes.

quote:

 for the purpose of sliding us into that death in the absence of any stress (mental or otherwise.).



No I am not suggesting any particular 'purpose' merely an absence of any contrary purpose (i.e. the body is so far damaged that there is no longer any point in retaining the danger signals, and in any case, the lines of communications themselves are already severely damaged thus the calming effect is an incidental by-product rather than a deliberate purpose).

quote:

I do believe however that there is life after death and that some supernatural being (we call God) does exist if only in name only.And the NDE is but a glance into it.



It is a common view by some people on the process.

I do not share your view, but neither will I attempt to dissuade you from the view.

What I was trying to show was the physical processes that lead to an NDE experience  - if you also believe there is a parallel spiritual process that is separate from the physical, I will leave that up to you.



George
 

Offline roarer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #19 on: 20/09/2006 02:14:57 »
AS....I believe that the following is the crux of your disagreement with me:
I believe that nature and all within it....is in existance for a PURPOSE. When I say nature I do NOT only mean..the sun...the moon...stars..the sea.....but all flora and fauna and the way the human being THINKS and ACTS FREELY but within the context of his/her EMOTIONS which is an extremely important facet of nature which is instilled into the human and within this context one must include the NDE. So nature INCLUDES everything which is in EXISTANCE on this planet. When you said that the NDE is not there for any particular purpose.....I wholly disagree. There is a purpose.....all we have to do is to find it
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #20 on: 20/09/2006 11:11:54 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer
When you said that the NDE is not there for any particular purpose.....I wholly disagree. There is a purpose.....all we have to do is to find it



OK, I have thought about this a bit more, and there is at least one circumstance where I can think this might have a benefit, not to the individual, but to the collective species or herd.

If an individual animal is in danger, particularly if it is a young animal in the proximity of its mother, then it will let out a cry for help so that its mother may come to its assistance.  Once the young animal is already so damaged that there is little hope of its mother being able to afford it help, it makes sense to cease the alarm calls, since it is unlikely that its mother can any longer save its life, but the continued alarm calls may cause the mother to unnecessarily endanger its own life.

In some societies, such as human society, there is an even wider network of mutual protection, and thus the calming effect of the NDE may well be a way for the dying person to accept their own death, and to cease asking for help from others to afford it protection, and thus cease asking others to continue to endanger their own lives in order to afford that futile attempt to save its life.

And just thinking a little more along these lines, I was wondering if maybe this had some similarity to the processes involved in PTSD and depression except that in these cases, there is no immediate threat to life, and the process kicks in too early, but the victim nonetheless  feels they are beyond help and ceases to help themselves, or ask for help from others.  In the case of PTSD, some people do respond by developing a similar sense of separation from the traumatic situation (even if the trauma is more psychological than physical) that an NDE victim feels, as if looking at the situation from the outside, and thus seeing the situation as if it was happening to someone else.



George
« Last Edit: 20/09/2006 11:21:25 by another_someone »
 

Offline Soul Surfer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3345
  • keep banging the rocks together
    • View Profile
    • ian kimber's web workspace
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #21 on: 20/09/2006 12:25:03 »
I come to this from a different point of view.  I do not believe in a God who acts and controls the universe outside of the laws of physics in any way and I do not believe in any form of afterlife because it is totally illogical and pointless. Death is an essential part of life and evolution. Without death and replacement change is impossible and change is essential for survival in a changing environment.  However I do believe in Religion as an essential part of making good life decisions and am a regular churchgoer begause the symbology of an all seeing all knowing God is in my mind one of the best and simplest models for a succesful collective life plan.

I am lucky in that I have not yet had any near death experiences myself but have occasionslly hurt mydelf quite badly and note when this happens, there is little or no initial pain and the body shuts down various systems for a while.  The pain only appears later to stop you moving things while the healing process is taking place.  My guess is that near death experiences are related to this process of anesthesia.  A bit like being put under for an operation (although this tends to happen reather quickly)  except that you just don't wake up.

Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
« Last Edit: 20/09/2006 12:30:38 by Soul Surfer »
 

Offline roarer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #22 on: 19/09/2006 04:21:05 »
Now I see...what you are saying is that quote'"the NDE is a loss of danger signals" end quote. If I understand that correctly then this means that you think that the  NDE (as in concurrence with many skeptics) is a naturally occuring calming effect just prior to death for the purpose of sliding us into that death in the absence of any stress (mental or otherwise.).
 I am not religious..I was brought up a Catholic..but I have not been to any religious functions for years...some 30 years or more...I do not believe in ANY religion whatsoever. I think that they actually DIVIDE rather than unite their populations. On top of that nature has equipped the human with a conscience and the capability to know right from wrong...and that is all that is required. Instructions from religions regarding rights and wrongs etc are in my view superfluous.In addition as the instructions are given my human beings they are open to misrepresentation and/or misinterpretation...and may be wholly incorrect.
I do believe however that there is life after death and that some supernatural being (we call God) does exist if only in name only.And the NDE is but a glance into it.
 

Offline Karen W.

  • Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *****
  • Posts: 31653
  • Thanked: 5 times
  • "come fly with me"
    • View Profile
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #23 on: 19/09/2006 04:54:59 »
It is certainly a glance into that! I agree on that point from my experiences!!

Karen
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #24 on: 20/09/2006 01:35:51 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer
Now I see...what you are saying is that quote'"the NDE is a loss of danger signals" end quote. If I understand that correctly then this means that you think that the  NDE (as in concurrence with many skeptics) is a naturally occuring calming effect just prior to death



Yes.

quote:

 for the purpose of sliding us into that death in the absence of any stress (mental or otherwise.).



No I am not suggesting any particular 'purpose' merely an absence of any contrary purpose (i.e. the body is so far damaged that there is no longer any point in retaining the danger signals, and in any case, the lines of communications themselves are already severely damaged thus the calming effect is an incidental by-product rather than a deliberate purpose).

quote:

I do believe however that there is life after death and that some supernatural being (we call God) does exist if only in name only.And the NDE is but a glance into it.



It is a common view by some people on the process.

I do not share your view, but neither will I attempt to dissuade you from the view.

What I was trying to show was the physical processes that lead to an NDE experience  - if you also believe there is a parallel spiritual process that is separate from the physical, I will leave that up to you.



George
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #24 on: 20/09/2006 01:35:51 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums
 
Login
Login with username, password and session length