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Author Topic: Near Death Experiences  (Read 31687 times)

Offline gecko

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #50 on: 02/10/2006 05:35:04 »
so no one has been "brought back" from death, and no one ever can be, because by definition, its a loss of heart and/or brain function thats irreversible!

so even if medical practice could reccusitate people after a whole year with no brain or heart function, if they once again had the functions, then they were never dead, because it was reversible!

i get a big kick out of the whole idea.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #51 on: 02/10/2006 10:01:54 »
Roarer you seem to be convinced of this "soul stuff" and happy about the violation of the conservation of energy etc.  but these do NOT occur.  Your ideas may be encouraged by modern science talking about things like "dark matter" and "dark energy" as places to hide your "soul stuff" but this would not work. The reason that it is "dark" is that it just does not interact with things in the electromagnetic way that we interact with the universe.  we are electromagnetic beings and even the strong and weak nuclear forces have now been reconciled with electromagnetism and quantum mechanics.  the remaining gravitational forces that govern the general size and shape of our universe are so unbelievably weak that they are not relavant except for the fact that they hold us and the atmosphere on the earth and provide the initial drive to enable the sun to perfom nuclear synthesis to keep us warm and build more atoms to form planets and eventually life.

Any "soul stuff" must have a physical existence and there is clearly no place in our universe for it to exist.  Metaphysics as a philosophical idea  means "beyond physics" but it does not refer to "magic" it refers to the wonderous way the simple physical laws organise themselves by recycling processes to extend their temporal interaction existance and evolve life.  You would do much better to spend your limited lifetime trying to understand this than trying to glimpse into a world that does not and cannot exist.  There is absolutely no life beyond death and it is essential for the universe to work that there isn't. If you think a little bit about it you will eventually understand why.

Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
« Last Edit: 02/10/2006 10:12:18 by Soul Surfer »
 

Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #52 on: 03/10/2006 02:11:27 »
I tell you...I ONLY use the words "soul mode" and "body mode" NOT  because I am religious..but because there are NO other words I can think of to distinguish between the two. I suppose I can define those "states"..is that the right word?.....like "death"...and "life"..or something similiar. But I bet that even if I used these words....they would be challenged.
Now to the defintion of death. What does medical science define the state where the heart stops and the brain is starved of oxygen..if it is NOT death? Is there a medical or scientific definition of this and if so what is it called?
 

Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #53 on: 04/10/2006 05:35:55 »
you can define death in your own mind however you like.  to me, it is irreversible, but to many christians, they throw out the notion of irreversible death based on faith.  from a semantical point of view, we have to define death a certain way for it to have meaning.  the medical community in the US defined it as i stated.  i don't know how it is defined in australia, but it very well may be different.  the medical term for a cardiac arrest is, of course, a cardiac arrest.  people can die from them, but sometimes survive.
 

Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #54 on: 04/10/2006 08:26:46 »
Bostjan....I have a feeling that many on this forum is being pedantic.
Science defines death as being quote "irreversable"....so this implies that when a patient is brought back by modern resuscitation techniques this was in fact reversable...thereby it WAS NOT actually DEATH!! Is this what is being implied here Alright then what happens if those modern resuscitation techniques..FAIL to bring back that patient. Then we can say.."Oh well..that was quote "irreversable" so that was actually....death"!! Are you serious....really...or are you trying to pull someone's leg
 

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #55 on: 04/10/2006 12:45:34 »
OK, I think we have ascertained that any precise point of irreversible death is flexible, but I would ask whether anyone would doubt that a fossilised skeleton is so far gone that it is not able to be brought back to a fully functioning organism (the DNA may be used to clone the animal – even that is not always the case; but what about the brain, the experiences of its life that are more than merely the contents of the DNA)?



George
 

Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #56 on: 05/10/2006 05:49:36 »
Well, as morbid as this topic is, i keep coming back.

Look, the point is that resesutation is not the same thing as rezzurection.  A brain is not the same thing as a spirit, and memories are not the same as a soul.  There seems to be a lot of confusion about these things.
 

Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #57 on: 05/10/2006 10:41:33 »
AS...I would think that a skeleton would be thought of.....even under any minimal scientific equation....as having been past the point of no return.....in dying!!
 

another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #58 on: 05/10/2006 21:12:41 »
quote:
Originally posted by bostjan
Look, the point is that resesutation is not the same thing as rezzurection.  A brain is not the same thing as a spirit, and memories are not the same as a soul.  There seems to be a lot of confusion about these things.



Are you saying that the after having passed into an afterlife, you believe the person has lost all of their memories of this life (i.e. if two people meet up in the afterlife, they would not remember each other from their earthly lives, and even if they had been the closest of companions within this life, they would meet as strangers in the next)?



George
 

Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #59 on: 06/10/2006 02:14:57 »
I have a theory...(oh not again roarer!!) that the 'afterlife" is the antithesis of this life.....e.g. we  suffer pain and dire consequences in this life....NONE in the other!! We get hungry and thirsty in this life...we do NOT in the other  etc.
Now if we believe this theory.... if we have a family..mother..father..brothers..sisters..sons..daughters in this life....in the "afterlife"..you would ONLY be YOU (this is confirmed by the way by those who experienced NDE's)....and no OTHER! You may not need them in that life anyway!!!Families are in this life for the sole purpose (once again) of nature to MAXIMISE the chances of survival of the human species. Can you imagine the chaos if NO ONE has any family...or families do not exist. Murders would remain unsolved and other things could occur
 

another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #60 on: 06/10/2006 02:58:23 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer
I have a theory...(oh not again roarer!!)



LOL :)

quote:

 that the 'afterlife" is the antithesis of this life.....e.g. we  suffer pain and dire consequences in this life....NONE in the other!! We get hungry and thirsty in this life...we do NOT in the other  etc.



Given that you do not seem to have made allowances for people to eat in the afterlife, it is very fortunate that they do not get hungry.

quote:

Now if we believe this theory.... if we have a family..mother..father..brothers..sisters..sons..daughters in this life....in the "afterlife"..you would ONLY be YOU (this is confirmed by the way by those who experienced NDE's)....and no OTHER!



So, you believe that in the afterlife, we have no link with the present life, because we have no memory of it; and we have no contact with any other human being either.  Do we have contact with any inanimate objects (we clearly have no need to have contact with food, drink, clothing, or shelter; and it does not seem to me logical to suggest that we would exist in a place where inanimate objects exist but that is devoid of anything animate)?

If we are in a place without memory, and without any current environment with which to interact, then we seem in effect to be in a void.  By what means do you regard this 'afterlife' to be a life at all?




George
 

Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #61 on: 06/10/2006 07:45:38 »
Perhaps this is the afterlife after all.  We could have all been superheroes in another universe who all got exposed to kryptonite and ended up here.  [:0)]

Seriously though, assuming there is an afterlife, if I can take the memories in my brain, why shouldn't I also take my colourblindness?  Why wouldn't I take my ulcers?  Why not take the cash in my pocket and my car, then?  Memories are synapses wired into my grey matter, so what makes them so much different from any other material object aside from the fact that we hold them to be more important for survival?  We know memories can be created and destroyed.
 

Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #62 on: 07/10/2006 02:31:47 »
The reason I am not convinced that there is NO "afterlife" is the fact that it's detractors do not have convincing arguments..including learned people (e.g. Dr. Susan Blackmore.)
On the other hand the circumstantial evidence of that "afterlife"...is ALL in this life. The way "nature" is virtually programmed,  not to force..but to give incentive, to maximise the chances of survival of the human species.
All this had to have a "creator"...as creations....have to have a "creator"..they could not come from nowhere.
As I said...that evidence is NOT CONCLUSIVE....which as we discussed previously...may be in the best interest of the human species.
 

Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #63 on: 07/10/2006 09:54:49 »
No one will ever convince anyone anything about an afterlife, because it's a made-up idea in our imaginations with no tangible connection to the real world.  That doesn't mean that it cannot exist, it just means that we cannot know about it now, and will not know about this life if and when an afterlife comes about.  That is all.  Any theories about the afterlife are pure speculation, including the theory that there is not one.  It's just like arguing about the existance of god.  It cannot be done by either side, unless you decide that god must have some tangible connection to what we can see, which no one wants to do.

And if I'm wrong, you had better watch out for the zombies sneaking up behind you!  LOL
 

another_someone

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #64 on: 08/10/2006 00:15:05 »
quote:
Originally posted by roarer
The reason I am not convinced that there is NO "afterlife" is the fact that it's detractors do not have convincing arguments..including learned people (e.g. Dr. Susan Blackmore.)
On the other hand the circumstantial evidence of that "afterlife"...is ALL in this life. The way "nature" is virtually programmed,  not to force..but to give incentive, to maximise the chances of survival of the human species.
All this had to have a "creator"...as creations....have to have a "creator"..they could not come from nowhere.
As I said...that evidence is NOT CONCLUSIVE....which as we discussed previously...may be in the best interest of the human species.



I am sorry to say that the above statement, while a perfectly valid exposition of your own beliefs, fails miserably in terms of logic.

To say that you are not convinced of something because the arguments are not convincing is a circular statement – it tells me nothing other than that you personally do not find the arguments convincing.  It may well be that you would never find any argument convincing, no matter how logically complete and absolute that argument was – the statement you have given tells me nothing of the facts, but only about your own position on the matter.

The debate about a creator, whatever its merits or otherwise, is totally separate from the arguments pertaining to an afterlife.  It is perfectly feasible that even if an afterlife were to be shown to exist, that there would still be no creator.  It is also feasible that even if you could show that there was a creator, that this creator would not have created an afterlife.  In fact, I would suggest that in practice it would be far more logical that if there was a creator, and He had a purpose in creating us, that He would have given us a finite lifespan that was just long enough to achieve His purpose and no more.  It is also very plausible that such a creator might have given us to believe that we had an afterlife to come, but there is no pragmatic reason to believe that he would have actually delivered on that expectation.



George
 

Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #65 on: 08/10/2006 01:18:15 »
AS and Bostjan...your arguments do have some validity. I suppose I could be at the other end of the spectrum..where nothing will convince me that THERE IS an afterlife.And as to the other argument. We have  tangible (and physical) "creations" here on this planet....e.g moon, stars..trees...sea....etc....NON-MAN-MADE entities. Where did they come from? Who "created" them? We can agree that they have been "created"...They did not just happen.If they are "created"...then there must be a "creator"? Who is s/he? This "creator" would have to be of immense genius.....do we agree?
So the question follows:
Would a "creator" of such an immense genius be capable of creating a "state" which is so sophisticated that it takes  an unknown imagination to understand it? This "state" is of course....an "afterlife" (as we call it here on this planet)
 

Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #66 on: 08/10/2006 01:56:57 »
There are two answers:

1) Someone created them.  In that case, who created this person?  Where is this person now and why are they not creating more stuff that we can see?
2) They just happened.  In that case, why did they happen?  Why did it stop happening?

Neither is generally satisfactory to the skeptical mind, but the search for explaination the last thirty years or so has been almost completely concerned with trying to learn more about situation number two.

So where do things come from?

The moon came from stardust collected into a ball due to a well in gravitational potential.  Then it was shaped by bombardment with other smaller particles created by similar means on a smaller scale.

Where do star come from?  Stars come from planetary nebulae, where gasses collect into balls as above, except the gravity becomes high enough to force hydrogen to fuse into deuterium and then forces deuterium to fuse into helium.  This releases lots of energy and causes the ball of gas to become a star.

Where do trees come from?  They come from germs in seeds and nuts.  When exposed to certain temperatures and light, a chemical is activated that starts a chain reaction of mineral and water gathering from outside the seed or nut.  This process grows larger, by cellular reproduction, until there is a tree.

Where did the sea come from?  The temperature and atmospheric conditions on earth were such that ice was allowed to exist in liquid, ice, and vapor forms all at once.  Other worlds exist with seas of other substances, as determined by their temperature and pressure.  We ended up with water.  Gravity pulled the liquid water to the lowest points on the surface to form the sea.

There are many things we do not know, however.  Some people still believe the moon came out of the center of the earth.  Some children still believe the moon is made of cheese.  A majority of westerners believe that god created the moon out of nothing.
 

Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #67 on: 08/10/2006 08:04:23 »
My friend Bostjan...you have fallen into that scientific trap where you are attempting to disprove the existance of a "creator" by stating the METHOD of conception of those non man-made entities.
Where did the moon come from?.....and then you proceeded to state the method on how this occured. This does NOTHING to disprove a "creator'...it simply reinforces it. Has it occured to you and the scientific community in general....that this was the method.....as used by the "creator". In case you did not understand I shall endeavor to submit an analogy.
A car model is designed and made in a factory. Someone from that enterprise comes along and tells us about the METHOD..on how this is made in that factory.....and the specific machines used for producing that car model
Does this mean that car was not DESIGNED or CREATED by someone?
 

Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #68 on: 08/10/2006 09:12:32 »
I agree that it does nothing to disprove a 'creater,' but I disagree with your statement that it reinforces it.

There is nothing to prove the existance of a creator, and nothing out there to disprove it.  This is why no one can prove monotheism, polytheism, pantheism, atheism nor agnosticism.

The simple argument that keeps all schools of thought from destroying one another is that the creator, creators, or lack of creator is/are very elusive in leaving signs for us to see as far as identification is concerned.
 

Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #69 on: 09/10/2006 01:20:51 »
I wholly contend that the entities which  are NOT man made on this planet is tangible and PHYSICAL evidence of a "creator" at work irrespective of the method under which they were conceived.Why?
As logic makes the world go around...the logic behind this is simply the following:
1) A TV set and a car (man made objects) had a creator.....MAN
2) The moon and stars (non-man made objects AND BEING AS PHYSICAL AND TANGIBLE AS A CAR AND A TV SET) had similiarly...a creator...........UNKNOWN.
However just because s/he is UNKNOWN does not mean that s/he IS NOT  creator
I say UNKNOWN simply because I am NOT religious. The various religions claim that the suprenatural being we are referring to is....GOD.
I am not.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2006 01:25:32 by roarer »
 

Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #70 on: 09/10/2006 02:26:33 »
The tangible creator of the stars and the moon is gravity.  If everything must have a creator and there is a god, who created god?  Super-god?  Proto-god?  That line of thinking is illogical.
 

Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #71 on: 09/10/2006 08:13:45 »
Bostjan...let me clarify your contentions here. You are NOT contradicting the fact that a TV set and a car (which are physical and tangible) was created by man.You are however contradicting the fact that the moon....stars...which are NOT figments of our imaginations...but cannot  be but categorised as being  EQUALLY physical and tangible as that TV set and the car were created. You are therefore contending that they came from nowhere (e.g from gravity) If ALL entities are physical and tangible....and two of them (e.g. TV set and car)are proven to be created..how can you argue then that the remaining entities are not? It is either ALL or nothing. Conversely...we may argue that the moon and stars...came from nothing....and so did the TV set and car?????
And...I am not claiming that there is a God...or a super God. All I claimed was the theory that there may be an abstract being of unimaginable genius...whose only tangible "weapon" is...nature. It may well be that NATURE is that abstract being.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2006 08:22:09 by roarer »
 

Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #72 on: 09/10/2006 08:55:58 »
Wow, last I checked, 'all or nothing' was not a valid logical argument.

If all apples are fruits…and two of them are grown in New Zeeland…how can you argue then that the remaining apples are not?  You say it's either all or nothing, so either the two apples didn't come from New Zeeland, or all of the apples must come from New Zeeland by an analogous argument.

Again, the god arguments are an easy place to get confused, because you want there to be logical explainations, but there are not.  Or so I claim.  If you want to make a logical argument, make sure that it is truly logical.  I'm not going to say that I can prove that there is a god or that there is no god, but I am saying that you cannot, either.
 

Offline roarer

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #73 on: 10/10/2006 01:11:06 »
I'll put it in another way. I believe that every entity which is TANGIBLE AND PHYSICAL on this planet....has been created (via a natural method)...that is...they did not come from nothing.
The entitites which are created by Man....can be proven.
However it would the height of banality for anyone to contend that the moon...stars...sea.....trees.....sun....human species......etc...were created by Man. And Bostjan before you say that the human species..IS created by humans ...via the "sex act and/or pregnancy"..I shall tell you now....that the "sex act and/or pregnancy" is but the METHOD under which the human being is created. Who created.....the "sex act and/or preganancy"? You will probably say..."Oh no one....it just WAS THERE"!! It came from NOWHERE!! The "sex act and/or pregnancy" are (once again) TANGIBLE AND PHYSICAL enitities.....
 

Offline bostjan

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #74 on: 10/10/2006 02:59:20 »
Sex act is a physical entity?

You saying anything came from anything else, when you can neither see nor measure the instant when it was created nor any evidence of the person who created it, is pure conjecture!  You can believe that all you want, yet, you cannot argue a fact based on conjecture.  Evolution is a theory which was formulated based on evidence.  There has been much evidence to support evolution.  No people were around to see humans evolve from apes over thousands of years, though, so we can never prove that humans evolved from apes.  No one was there to see god create the universe, so why are some people so sure that they can prove that he/she/it did?  It doesn't make any sense!

And if I said humans use the method of sex act to create more humans, then I would have just told you who created them, as well as what method they used.  ;)
 

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Re: Near Death Experiences
« Reply #74 on: 10/10/2006 02:59:20 »

 

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