# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Will gravity be susceptible to time dilation?  (Read 3124 times)

#### jeffreyH

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##### Will gravity be susceptible to time dilation?
« on: 09/04/2014 17:16:55 »
This one seems mind bending. Since gravity is thought to interact with itself would it be effected in the way that matter is. This includes time dilation and length contraction. Although I think length contraction makes no sense in this respect.

#### JP

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##### Re: Will gravity be susceptible to time dilation?
« Reply #1 on: 09/04/2014 18:09:47 »
Time dilation effects time.  Length contraction effects length.  Gravity is neither time nor length, so no.  Aspects of gravity that do depend on time or length would be effected.

These effects are all factored into the equations of general relativity, which are nonlinear--which is a fancy term meaning gravity can effect itself in those equations.

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Will gravity be susceptible to time dilation?
« Reply #2 on: 09/04/2014 20:24:40 »
Time dilation effects time.  Length contraction effects length.  Gravity is neither time nor length, so no.  Aspects of gravity that do depend on time or length would be effected.

These effects are all factored into the equations of general relativity, which are nonlinear--which is a fancy term meaning gravity can effect itself in those equations.

Probably what I should have said is will the force carrier particle of gravitation be susceptible?

#### JP

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##### Re: Will gravity be susceptible to time dilation?
« Reply #3 on: 09/04/2014 20:51:30 »
Time dilation effects time.  Length contraction effects length.  Gravity is neither time nor length, so no.  Aspects of gravity that do depend on time or length would be effected.

These effects are all factored into the equations of general relativity, which are nonlinear--which is a fancy term meaning gravity can effect itself in those equations.

Probably what I should have said is will the force carrier particle of gravitation be susceptible?

Well, the graviton is supposed to be a particle of the gravitational field, so if the gravitational field interacts with itself, presumably gravitons will as well. The precise mechanism will have to wait for a theory of the graviton to be validated.

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Will gravity be susceptible to time dilation?
« Reply #4 on: 10/04/2014 09:55:26 »
Evidence has just been found to show the vortex around the earth using satellites and gyroscopes. Is it possible that 'gravitons' are actually following this type of path? This would actually accentuate the curvature around an object rotating with angular momentum. As a mass collapses and angular momentum increases this would be an important consideration. This 'amplification' (for want of a better word) of curvature could have some unknown effect on the gravitation.

#### JP

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##### Re: Will gravity be susceptible to time dilation?
« Reply #5 on: 10/04/2014 12:29:41 »
Is it possible that a particle we know nothing about (including whether or not it exists) does a certain thing?  Yes.

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Will gravity be susceptible to time dilation?
« Reply #6 on: 10/04/2014 13:42:01 »
Is it possible that a particle we know nothing about (including whether or not it exists) does a certain thing?  Yes.

I vote this answer of the week. Made me laugh. I walked into that one.

#### JP

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##### Re: Will gravity be susceptible to time dilation?
« Reply #7 on: 10/04/2014 15:11:32 »
You do have a valid point: gravity interacts with itself and this should be reflected in the graviton.  But there are so many theories of what a graviton might be that getting from generalities to specifics would require picking a particular theory (and I doubt anyone on this forum is an expert in graviton theories).

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Will gravity be susceptible to time dilation?
« Reply #8 on: 11/04/2014 01:36:38 »
You do have a valid point: gravity interacts with itself and this should be reflected in the graviton.  But there are so many theories of what a graviton might be that getting from generalities to specifics would require picking a particular theory (and I doubt anyone on this forum is an expert in graviton theories).

Well it would mean solving Einstein's equations and that is no mean feat. I believe I am right in thinking that there are only two at the moment, Kerr and Schwarzschild. Actually there are 4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerr_metric
« Last Edit: 11/04/2014 01:41:34 by jeffreyH »

#### JP

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##### Re: Will gravity be susceptible to time dilation?
« Reply #9 on: 11/04/2014 02:07:52 »
You do have a valid point: gravity interacts with itself and this should be reflected in the graviton.  But there are so many theories of what a graviton might be that getting from generalities to specifics would require picking a particular theory (and I doubt anyone on this forum is an expert in graviton theories).

Well it would mean solving Einstein's equations and that is no mean feat. I believe I am right in thinking that there are only two at the moment, Kerr and Schwarzschild. Actually there are 4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerr_metric

No, that would mean quantizing Einstein's equations, which is no mean feat because no one know how to do it properly.  Solving the classical equations is pretty straightforward by comparison.  There are only a few closed-form solutions (ones you can write out as an equation), but there's lots of ways to numerically solve them, which is relatively straightforward to do on a computer.

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Will gravity be susceptible to time dilation?
« Reply #10 on: 11/04/2014 02:49:13 »
You do have a valid point: gravity interacts with itself and this should be reflected in the graviton.  But there are so many theories of what a graviton might be that getting from generalities to specifics would require picking a particular theory (and I doubt anyone on this forum is an expert in graviton theories).

Well it would mean solving Einstein's equations and that is no mean feat. I believe I am right in thinking that there are only two at the moment, Kerr and Schwarzschild. Actually there are 4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerr_metric

No, that would mean quantizing Einstein's equations, which is no mean feat because no one know how to do it properly.  Solving the classical equations is pretty straightforward by comparison.  There are only a few closed-form solutions (ones you can write out as an equation), but there's lots of ways to numerically solve them, which is relatively straightforward to do on a computer.

Thanks for the clarification.

#### mybigfatcat

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##### Re: Will gravity be susceptible to time dilation?
« Reply #11 on: 11/04/2014 03:03:22 »
Evidence has just been found to show the vortex around the earth using satellites and gyroscopes. Is it possible that 'gravitons' are actually following this type of path? This would actually accentuate the curvature around an object rotating with angular momentum. As a mass collapses and angular momentum increases this would be an important consideration. This 'amplification' (for want of a better word) of curvature could have some unknown effect on the gravitation.
Hi Jeff; please clarify what you are talking about please concerning evidence for a Vortex around earth? what vortex?
Thx;
BFC

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Will gravity be susceptible to time dilation?
« Reply #12 on: 11/04/2014 13:11:33 »
Evidence has just been found to show the vortex around the earth using satellites and gyroscopes. Is it possible that 'gravitons' are actually following this type of path? This would actually accentuate the curvature around an object rotating with angular momentum. As a mass collapses and angular momentum increases this would be an important consideration. This 'amplification' (for want of a better word) of curvature could have some unknown effect on the gravitation.
Hi Jeff; please clarify what you are talking about please concerning evidence for a Vortex around earth? what vortex?
Thx;
BFC

It is from the results of gravity probe B.

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2011/04may_epic/

#### mybigfatcat

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##### Re: Will gravity be susceptible to time dilation?
« Reply #13 on: 11/04/2014 15:57:54 »
Oh, OK; you mean the GR predicted Lense-Thirring (gravito-magnetic) field; Never heard of it referred to as a vortex. Nevertheless, now I understand what you are referring to in asking about gravity-gravity interaction.
If I'm not mistaken this is a non-linear effect is so tiny as to only be apparent in very large fields....and its application to 'gravito-magnetism' would be even more miniscule.
BFC

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Will gravity be susceptible to time dilation?
« Reply #14 on: 11/04/2014 17:25:22 »
Oh, OK; you mean the GR predicted Lense-Thirring (gravito-magnetic) field; Never heard of it referred to as a vortex. Nevertheless, now I understand what you are referring to in asking about gravity-gravity interaction.
If I'm not mistaken this is a non-linear effect is so tiny as to only be apparent in very large fields....and its application to 'gravito-magnetism' would be even more miniscule.
BFC

I am wondering if complex geometry could stand in place of the super position principle.

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##### Re: Will gravity be susceptible to time dilation?
« Reply #14 on: 11/04/2014 17:25:22 »