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Author Topic: Where is there nothing?  (Read 5383 times)

Offline allan marsh

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Where is there nothing?
« on: 21/05/2014 14:29:54 »
We have particles,waves, fields etc but have now gone years since a new "entity" was established.
My question is where in the universe can we find nothing......it seems a stupid question but nothing can be defined in our terms to be where time does not exist.
Yes you say the event horizon but we need a black hole for that.

Just take empty space and remove all particles and fields   Is that where nothing exists?
Just imagine a particle getting smaller and smaller until it has no size and is therefore not a particle.
Do we have an entity where there is zero time to cross no distance and creating a window/wormhole to anywhere in existence in zero time can be achieved ?
All sound daft but its a serious question effecting our future!


 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #1 on: 21/05/2014 16:08:52 »
We have particles,waves, fields etc but have now gone years since a new "entity" was established.
The Higgs boson springs to mind as a recently discovered particle and field... or by "entity" did you mean something else?

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My question is where in the universe can we find nothing......it seems a stupid question but nothing can be defined in our terms to be where time does not exist.
Huh? nothing is the absence of anything; you won't find it in a material universe. The cessation of time means no events; how could you know anything about it?

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Just take empty space and remove all particles and fields    Is that where nothing exists?
I don't think you can do that. Spacetime itself has inherent energy.

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Just imagine a particle getting smaller and smaller until it has no size and is therefore not a particle.
It can't happen, particle energy is quantised; it's either there or it isn't.

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Do we have an entity where there is zero time to cross no distance and creating a window/wormhole to anywhere in existence in zero time can be achieved ?
When does it not take zero time to cross zero distance? does that even mean anything?

Wormholes are theoretically possible, but it's generally thought that unless you have exotic matter with negative energy density, they'd collapse if you tried to pass anything through.

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All sound daft but its a serious question effecting our future!
How does it affect our future?
« Last Edit: 21/05/2014 16:12:31 by dlorde »
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #2 on: 21/05/2014 17:48:45 »
Sure nothing exist, it's also called 'energy' :)

Now you just need to define 'energy' to your liking. when there is no 'energy' to be measured, does this mean that this property is absent? It's like 'gravity', does a flat space consist of a space without the property of gravity, or is it just unmeasurable?

but it also goes back to how you define this universe, as a container of sorts holding a certain equilibrium, or if you define it purely locally. Defining it the last way everything becomes constants and so 'constant properties'
=

The funny thing about defining it locally is that the space gets created from its constants. The only thing you need to get to a universe locally is means of communicating I think, between those frames of reference, sharing equivalent local constants. What you then get to will as I see it, become a truly 'closed universe' as it only can exist in between those shared constants, communicating. and they do not need to share any of the ideas we use of measuring a distance, rather distances should come to be through communication. Weird idea, isn't it :)

=

And 'dimensions' is the logical result from it I think. we get to them trough communication.

« Last Edit: 21/05/2014 18:03:08 by yor_on »
 

Offline allan marsh

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #3 on: 21/05/2014 20:04:08 »
once upon a time! man sailed the seas and because some ships never returned, there became an idea that we were limited to this flat world where ships fell off the edge and that was that
UNTIL
we realised that the world was a sphere and we learned how to navigate, using natural forces (wind etc) round our globe
problem solved!!

In 50 say 100 years we are to approach the same quandary.
after visiting the assessable planets  mankind looks out to see that however fast one travels and for however long, it will (or it seems so) be IMPOSSIBLE!! to travel to the nearest star and its planets in whatever Goldilocks zone one finds.
We are stuck in that place (our solar system)... based on present classical physics!

I ask you whether you think this is what will happen.... you pessimists !!

so, to the optimist you must start to look for thee inevitable change in our science/technology that will permit us to travel
physically or mentally, anywhere in our universe.
So, dear optimist we need a heretic scientist to challenge where we are now...YES

so, start with the heretical idea that an entity exists that is not known to us in todays era.

my entity is called "nothing", just a window to anywhere in the universe in zero time.
a change in reality where the past and future meet instantaneously and where the now ceases to exist.

come on, think the impossible!!!
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #4 on: 21/05/2014 21:53:59 »
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UNTIL we realised that the world was a sphere
Greek astronomers deduced that the Earth was a sphere by looking at the shape of Earth's shadow during Lunar eclipses. This was a couple of centuries BC.
 

Offline petm1

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #5 on: 22/05/2014 05:15:21 »
Nowhere, no time. [xx(]
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #6 on: 22/05/2014 10:42:38 »
Let's see. And God said 'let there be light' :)

The guy that made that one up was on the right track. Light is the simplest description of our immeasurable quantity 'energy'. When we measure energy we're actually measuring radiation which consist of 'bosons'. We do not have a blueprint defining 'energy' on its own. Only the transformations interacting in matter and radiation. So whatever 'energy' is, it's no big jump assuming it to have a property of its own, expressing itself through those interactions. You don't need 'energy' to be waves, neither do you need it to be photons, better to think of it as the origin of both, and immeasurable.

And what you think of as a defined space, or 'commonly shared universe' is just one description. There are more to be made.
 

Offline allan marsh

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #7 on: 22/05/2014 15:34:52 »
i smile.... unless you can tell me more about god you will probably not be able to describe nothing.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #8 on: 22/05/2014 19:16:36 »
It's not about God really, it's about light and 'energy'. Energy is a transformation, at least that should be where you get the results leading us to relativity. It's, as JP said once (I think?) the coin of exchange we measure on. But it is remarkable how many spiritualistic (if that is the right word for it?) movements etc, consider just light as an expression of something special. And when considering that a group of scientists expect themselves to prove it experimentally, creating (rest) particles out of light?

It is interesting to me :) Although there is a big difference between beliefs and experimental proofs for them. When you, and others, can prove your beliefs in repeatable experiments it also has taken the step from a belief (theory, hypothesis) into what we call experimental facts.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #9 on: 22/05/2014 19:31:55 »
A theory covers more than just the experiments, A hypothesis is more of a theoretical suggestion. To make a new one you need to find either a totally new way to apply the experiments already existing to your idea of why, but better yet is to find that experiment that will give you a predicted difference between 'what was', the accepted theory, and what your (new) theory will predict.
 

Offline allan marsh

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #10 on: 22/05/2014 20:56:18 »
Yes, experiments are the key to science, if you define science as putting forward a theory and the measuring,  measuring until proof or no,proof occurs.
Sadly we have entered the era where the measuring instruments are elastic!

New science or natural philosophy is where you accept totally something, and find you cannot disprove its reality by any means

If you believe in something, nature begs that there must be nothing

Sadly it is impossible to get CERN to look for nothing,   but they did have go at Higgs!
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #11 on: 22/05/2014 22:55:11 »
When we measure energy we're actually measuring radiation which consist of 'bosons'. We do not have a blueprint defining 'energy' on its own. Only the transformations interacting in matter and radiation.
Radiative energy is only one kind of energy, there are others that don't involve radiation. It's an indirectly observed quantity, an equivalence relation. Like financial value, it can come in many forms and can be converted from one form to another.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #12 on: 22/05/2014 23:12:19 »
... to the optimist you must start to look for thee inevitable change in our science/technology that will permit us to travel
physically or mentally, anywhere in our universe.
So, dear optimist we need a heretic scientist to challenge where we are now...YES
That's fine, but we can only attempt what is physically possible. No amount of wishing or trying can achieve the physically impossible.

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so, start with the heretical idea that an entity exists that is not known to us in todays era.

my entity is called "nothing", just a window to anywhere in the universe in zero time.
a change in reality where the past and future meet instantaneously and where the now ceases to exist.
You need a better name, because nothing isn't an entity, it's an absence of any entity. Romantic musings about zero time and the death of the now are all very nice, but without a testable hypothesis it's just adolescent poesy.

Quantum field theory tells us there are no new or unknown forces or particles that are relevant to human-scale experience. Any unknown particles or forces must be too short range or weak to have any effect on us (there may also be unknown cosmological range forces, but they also are irrelevant to us). Whatever wonders you want to work will have to come from the forces that are relevant to human scales - gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces.
 

Offline allan marsh

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #13 on: 23/05/2014 11:47:43 »
ah... another person who accepts quantum theory is the final answer.

take any scientific theory from aristotle to newton to einstein or even bohr who i met in 1961
everyone is or has been modified or changed.

any idea that quantum theory, string theory etc is correct is proven by history to be wrong.

so start by the statement that quantum theory is (slightly) wrong then you are on the right route.

read Michael Faradays talk of 1819 on Certainty.... starts ... A man that thinks he is right is almost sure to be wrong.....etc read on
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #14 on: 23/05/2014 13:42:05 »
ah... another person who accepts quantum theory is the final answer.
Nope, just the best model we have to date.

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so start by the statement that quantum theory is (slightly) wrong then you are on the right route.
It's quite possible that QFT isn't the whole story, but it's stood up to experimental testing better than any other model, and has made predictions that were verified to a precision orders of magnitude than any previous model.

This means it is, at the very least, an exceptionally good approximation. However, even if it was only a fair approximation of how things are, it would still mean we know there are no new or unknown forces or particles that are relevant to human-scale experience. For full details, check out Sean Carroll's video talk which explains it (particularly 33 mins onwards, but it's worth watching it all).
 

Offline allan marsh

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #15 on: 24/05/2014 17:35:40 »
Yes I live with the carl,s richannel .com videos all good talk.

I met Bohr in 1961 in the nuclear industry,he like you still can't give a reason why the atom of tritium I hold in my hand, breaks down in a second or years ! Probability of course -----but just tell me the mechanism and then tell me how to make it decay on demand!

If you can you are a billionaire
 

Offline allan marsh

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #16 on: 25/05/2014 18:22:54 »
Oh! Some don't like the name "Nothing" so if you are old enough lets just call it "ETHER"

Back to the other centuries
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #17 on: 28/05/2014 01:31:47 »
When we measure energy we're actually measuring radiation which consist of 'bosons'. We do not have a blueprint defining 'energy' on its own. Only the transformations interacting in matter and radiation.
Radiative energy is only one kind of energy, there are others that don't involve radiation. It's an indirectly observed quantity, an equivalence relation. Like financial value, it can come in many forms and can be converted from one form to another.

True dlorde, I was thinking of what is the simplest description and then it became radiation for me, but there are other descriptions of 'energy', as a magnetic field. And that is measurable too :)
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #18 on: 28/05/2014 01:50:03 »
Then again, radiation is 'photons' if one like, or 'waves' (or both naturally). To that we then, depending on taste, can add 'virtual photons', or just indeterminism? So, depending on views you might be able to liken a magnetic field-line to a concept of 'virtual photons' fluctuating there, creating it? Or possibly just use its probability to define it by, as well as observer dependencies? Magnetism is a very interesting phenomena really, and one I can't say I understand.
 

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Re: Where is there nothing?
« Reply #18 on: 28/05/2014 01:50:03 »

 

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