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Author Topic: How is water heated?  (Read 14081 times)

Offline lightarrow

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #25 on: 17/06/2014 21:26:49 »
If vibrations are transferred by upper shells only, do nuclei stays in a fixed position?
It's the *entire* atom which moves (when it does, in heat transfer: in a phase transform, the atom's vibrations don't change, because the system's temperature doesn't vary) not the outer shell only.

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Offline jccc

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #26 on: 18/06/2014 01:03:41 »
We are neutral yet electrons jump on us from car doors sometimes.

How is it possible that electron not stick to proton all the time in atoms/matters? What force/matter/field seperates them apart? What's in between electron and nucleus?

Simple straight question, I find no answer that I understand yet, but I am sure there must be something other than empty space, to stop two opposite charges to stick together.

Space has invisible hands? Proton has defensive force field?

No. To be logically thinking, I suspect maybe space is filled with super tiny negative charged particles, each carries a fiction of an electron's charge. 

Such particles responsable for forming nucleus/atom/matter, conducting EM wave, transfer force/energy.

Find a way to detect such particles, you know better ways. Maybe few books in physics could be rewrite.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #27 on: 18/06/2014 03:25:15 »
Quote from: jccc
Photon is a invented word, there is no photon but electromagnetic wave.
Why on earth would you make such a claim? First off, as lightarrow indicated, all words are Ēinvented.Ē Thatís where all the terms in physics come from.

Saying what you did implies that you donít understand quantum mechanics. An electromagnetic wave is composed of photons so saying Ö, there is no photon but electromagnetic wave is quite misguided. Itís known that light is an electromagnetic wave. Itís also known that many metals emit electrons when light is shined on it. If electromagnetic field theory was correct then the energy from the EM field of the light would transfer energy to the electron which would then be able to over come the work function of the metal and fly off. However that takes time to happen according to EM theory is about 50 years. However its observed to happen nearly instantaneously. Thatís how Einstein came up with the theory of photons and why he was awarded the Nobel Prize for it. Einstein spoke of ďlight quantaĒ something like that. I never read the original paper. Iíve been unable to find it in English.

However it wasnít Einstein who coined the term photon. It was Gilbert Lewis who coined it in a letter to the editor in an article called Conservation of Photons in Nature, December 18, 1926, pages 874-875. He only coined the term. He didnít know the true nature of photons when he wrote that paper. He thought of a photon as being an atom of light. He wrote
Quote
I therefore take he liberty of proposing for this hypothetical new atom, which is not light but plays an essential part in every process of radiation, the name photon.
When the theory of light became better understood the term photon was retained for the quantum of light.

Quote from: jccc
Space is charged, wake up.
No, it isnít. Why would you ever think such a thing? If it were then youíd most certainly know it. What sign of the charge do you think it is and why do think that we canít detect it while we walk through it?
 

Offline JP

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #28 on: 18/06/2014 17:04:10 »
We are neutral yet electrons jump on us from car doors sometimes.

How is it possible that electron not stick to proton all the time in atoms/matters? What force/matter/field seperates them apart? What's in between electron and nucleus?
The moon and the earth attract each other, so why doesn't the moon stick to the earth?  Two objects can attract and still be in a stable orbital system where they don't collide.  Electron orbitals are actually more stable than the moon/earth because of the laws of quantum mechanics provide some extra stability that is lacking in classical systems. 

Quote
Simple straight question, I find no answer that I understand yet, but I am sure there must be something other than empty space, to stop two opposite charges to stick together.

Space has invisible hands? Proton has defensive force field?

No. To be logically thinking, I suspect maybe space is filled with super tiny negative charged particles, each carries a fiction of an electron's charge. 

Such particles responsable for forming nucleus/atom/matter, conducting EM wave, transfer force/energy.

Find a way to detect such particles, you know better ways. Maybe few books in physics could be rewrite.

This type of thinking leads to unscientific theories.  A scientist never says "I don't understand this explanation so this other explanation I came up with is better."  A scientist instead says "I deeply understand the current mainstream explanation and here are the flaws I have found it and here is my idea to correct them."
 

Offline jccc

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #29 on: 18/06/2014 19:02:12 »
Thank you all deeply for your comments, I am so hunger to learn the mystery of the universe. But in no way I am a scientist, I know too little.

I don't understand QM, the words just make no sence to me. Atoms are compact packed in matters, solar systems are far away seperated. EM force is 10^33 times gravity. Does solar systems share planets? How is chemical bonds obiting?

It just too hard to swollow.   

I suggested a new particle to fit the gape and it seems more acceptable to me.

Think about it, if such particles is real, there should be a way to proof it.

I am thinking a high speed fan in vacuum should produce some kind EM field/wind.

Please open your mind, design/find a way to detect enertron - an imaginary negative charged tiny particle that fills space.
« Last Edit: 18/06/2014 19:10:11 by jccc »
 

Offline JP

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #30 on: 18/06/2014 19:59:34 »
Thank you all deeply for your comments, I am so hunger to learn the mystery of the universe. But in no way I am a scientist, I know too little.

I don't understand QM, the words just make no sence to me. Atoms are compact packed in matters, solar systems are far away seperated. EM force is 10^33 times gravity. Does solar systems share planets? How is chemical bonds obiting?


The nice thing about science is that it doesn't care if you understand it or not.  Quantum mechanics works and it explains the phenomena you describe (at least those involving electron orbitals).  There is absolutely no reason to introduce a new particle to explain this.  More importantly, quantum mechanics not only successfully describes electron orbitals, but it explained many other phenomena that had previously been mysterious (the photoelectric effect, black body radiation, etc.) and predicted new effects that were later tested and verified (wave-particle duality, the Zeeman effect, new particles in the standard model, etc.)  If your particle does all that, then congratulations!  You've rediscovered quantum mechanics.  If it doesn't do all that, then there is no point using it instead of quantum mechanics.

If you want to propose an extension to quantum mechanics, which is a major area of research in physics, you first have to understand it.  That takes a lot of work, just as becoming an expert in anything in life takes a lot of work. 
 

Offline jccc

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #31 on: 18/06/2014 21:14:32 »
I only want an answer, why positive charge and negative charge in an atom not stick together?

F= p x q/r^2   Two opposite charges should always stick together if nothing separates them.

What is obit, shell, electron cloud? Anything that is negative charged should be automaticly falling into nucleus.

No matter what theory, please help me to understand.
 

Offline lightarrow

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #32 on: 18/06/2014 21:16:03 »
Quote from: jccc
Photon is a invented word, there is no photon but electromagnetic wave.
First off, as lightarrow indicated, all words are Ēinvented.Ē
Which thread are you referring to? I don't remember to have written this (but it's possible, my memory is not as fresh as once...).

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Offline lightarrow

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #33 on: 18/06/2014 21:22:07 »
I only want an answer, why positive charge and negative charge in an atom not stick together?

F= p x q/r^2   Two opposite charges should always stick together if nothing separates them.

What is obit, shell, electron cloud? Anything that is negative charged should be automaticly falling into nucleus.
What you say is not always true. Is true only for classical objects. In particular, it's true for charged particles which can be considered as spatially separated, spatially localized corpuscles. Electrons in the atom are not spatially localized corpuscles.
So, classical theory, which says that electrons should stick to the protons, is meaningless. A new theory is required: quantum mechanics.

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Offline evan_au

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #34 on: 18/06/2014 22:26:46 »
Quote
Atoms are compactly packed in matter, solar systems are far away seperated.

Atoms have most of their mass in a compact object in the center (just like the Solar System).

Atoms can be closely packed together (as in a solid), or widely separated (as in a "noble gas" like neon).
Solar systems can be closely packed together (as in a globular cluster) or widely separated (as in our part of the galactic arm).

The main difference is that in a solar system, masses are large and quantum effects can be ignored.
In contrast, in an atom, the wavelength of the electron is comparable to the size of the atom - you could almost say that the wavelength of the electron defines the size of the atom.

You can demonstrate this by making an atom from a proton and a meson instead of the regular proton and electron - the meson has a much shorter wavelength than an electron, and the resulting "atom" is much smaller than a hydrogen atom. This is not because the meson has a stronger electric charge than the electron - they have equal charges; it is due to the fact that these tiny objects have a quantum nature.

It can't be due to tiny negative charges floating everywhere in space, because this would imply that there are less of them near a meson than an electron.

Quote
Does solar systems share planets?
You can imagine closely spaced Suns in a globular cluster where planets first circle one star, then later circle another star.

But the gravitational forces between multiple planets and stars will end up flinging some planets into the star, and others into interstellar space.
This does not happen in atoms because the Pauli Exclusion Principle (among other things) keeps electrons (and mesons) from sharing the same orbits. This does not happen for planets.
 

Offline JP

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #35 on: 18/06/2014 23:17:44 »
I only want an answer, why positive charge and negative charge in an atom not stick together?

F= p x q/r^2   Two opposite charges should always stick together if nothing separates them.

What is obit, shell, electron cloud? Anything that is negative charged should be automaticly falling into nucleus.
What you say is not always true. Is true only for classical objects. In particular, it's true for charged particles which can be considered as spatially separated, spatially localized corpuscles. Electrons in the atom are not spatially localized corpuscles.
So, classical theory, which says that electrons should stick to the protons, is meaningless. A new theory is required: quantum mechanics.

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lightarrow

Lightarrow is absolutely correct.  If you're thinking purely classically, which you are, an electron will inevitably fall into the nucleus.  Even if you set it up in an orbit around the nucleus, like the moon around the earth, it would quickly radiate away energy and fall into the nucleus.  That would be the end of the story except we obviously observe that electrons do not fall into the nucleus, so this has to be explained.  So it becomes a task to find the best model to explain this and the result is quantum mechanics.  The reason it is the best model is that it was not chosen solely to explain this.  It was formulated to explain both this problem and many other things and it does so amazingly well.  It also predicted lots of other effects that were later discovered.  It has been so well tested that any model that comes along to improve on quantum mechanics is going to have to include all of its predictions and then add to them.  So even if you were to find a theory of a new particle to explain electron orbitals, you'd have to show first that it agreed with quantum mechanics and then what else it explains.

If you want to know the details, you have to be willing to tackle a lot of fairly heavy math.  Unfortunately, the quantum world is not like our own, which is why it took so long to discover quantum mechanics.  It is extremely difficult to think of quantum phenomena in terms of our daily experiences. 

 

Offline jccc

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #36 on: 19/06/2014 00:28:28 »
Thanks for helping me out! JP said it the best!
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #37 on: 19/06/2014 05:42:33 »
Quote from: lightarrow
Which thread are you referring to? I don't remember to have written this (but it's possible, my memory is not as fresh as once...).
My mistake. I thought it was you but it was actually Bored Chemist. And he didn't actually say it, but sort of implied it. I.e.
Quote from: Bored chemist
perhaps you would like to give us a list of words that are not made up.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #38 on: 19/06/2014 06:11:42 »
It's becoming increasingly difficult to hide the fact that even the laws that govern our reality are the result of some rather creative design work by someone that really enjoys math.

I borrowed that from another forum. I seriously agreed.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #39 on: 19/06/2014 07:08:11 »
Quote from: jccc
It's becoming increasingly difficult to hide the fact that even the laws that govern our reality are the result of some rather creative design work by someone that really enjoys math.
Not true. Physicists use math because itís said to be the language of physics. That means we use math to describe physical laws. Thereís no way to describe whatís going on in nature without using math. It letís us describe exactly whatís going it. It gives us a way to describe the relationship between different physical quantities. This simply cannot be done without math and by definition, itís the task of physics and the physicist to describe whatís going on in nature.

Go ahead and give it a try. Try to describe the laws of nature without math. Try doing it with the theory of electromagnetism.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #40 on: 20/06/2014 03:20:33 »
Itís known that light is an electromagnetic wave. Itís also known that many metals emit electrons when light is shined on it. If electromagnetic field theory was correct then the energy from the EM field of the light would transfer energy to the electron which would then be able to over come the work function of the metal and fly off. However that takes time to happen according to EM theory is about 50 years. However its observed to happen nearly instantaneously. Thatís how Einstein came up with the theory of photons and why he was awarded the Nobel Prize for it. Einstein spoke of ďlight quantaĒ something like that. I never read the original paper. Iíve been unable to find it in English.
[/quote]

So is EM theory correct?

If photon transfer momentum to electron to knock it off atom, how many photons hit a electron at same time? What is the inpact angle?
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #41 on: 20/06/2014 05:25:08 »
Quote from: jccc
So is EM theory correct?
Of course itís correct. Within its domain of applicability itís correct. When you try to apply it to sub atomic physics it fails. However thatís outside its domain of applicability. Just like Newtonian mechanics (aka classical mechanics) is correct within its domain of applicability. When you try to apply classical mechanics to the sub atomic domain it too fails. Thatís why quantum mechanics was created. And EM theory not working on the sub atomic domain is why quantum electrodynamics (aka QED) was created.

Quote from: jccc
If photon transfer momentum to electron to knock it off atom, how many photons hit a electron at same time?
One.

Quote from: jccc
What is the inpact angle?
I donít know what an impact angle is. Please define the term. I think you mixed two terms; impact parameter and scattering angle.

I know what a scattering angle is. Is that what you mean? If so then it can have any value between 0 and 180 degrees. There is a corresponding change in wavelength. Thereís no way to predict which value it will be from initial conditions. For example; when a photon strikes one of the inner electrons in, say, a carbon atom there is virtually no shift in wavelength. Thatís because the inner electrons are tightly bound to the atom and itís the whole atom that recoils rather than just the inner electron. Since the mass of the atom is about 10,000 times that of the electron the shift is negligible.

I hope that helps.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #42 on: 20/06/2014 06:15:08 »
Of cause it helps a lot Pete, I been wondering all my life for those questions. I sincerely appreciate!

I thought particles have mass, charge, shape just like matter. That's why I ask the impact angle of photon and electron.

It is spooky to think how photon is produced, why all kinds of photons have the same speed but different impact momentum?

What's the gun that shooting photons? What's the mechanism? How photon becomes heat? Is it possible more than one photon hit electron within a very short time so give electron higher escaping speed/voltage?

 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #43 on: 20/06/2014 06:42:09 »
Quote from: jccc
I thought particles have mass, charge, shape just like matter.
Particles have mass and charge. They donít have a shape though. However particles like electrons are thought to be point particles which has no dimensions at all.

Quote from: jccc
That's why I ask the impact angle of photon and electron.
But you never told me what you meant by impact angle of photon and electron. As far as I know there is no such thing. As I indicated you have it confused with impact parameter and scattering angle.

Quote from: jccc
It is spooky to think how photon is produced, why all kinds of photons have the same speed but different impact momentum?
They differ by wavelength.

Quote from: jccc
What's the gun that shooting photons?
Atoms emit photons when one of the electrons transitions from a higher state of energy to a lower state. When that happens a photon is emitted.

Quote from: jccc
What's the mechanism?
I donít think that anybody knows other than what Iíve said.

Quote from: jccc
How photon becomes heat?
When a photon hits an atom some of the energy can go into the kinetic energy of the atom. When the kinetic energy of the atoms that makes up a body increases the temperature increases.

Quote from: jccc
Is it possible more than one photon hit electron within a very short time so give electron higher escaping speed/voltage?
I donít see why not.

Have you ever thought about buying a book on the subject? Try Quantum Mechanics by A.P. French and Edwin F. Taylor. Itís a great book. It used to be used at MIT to learn quantum mechanics.

How much math do you know? What math do you know?  Algebra? Trigonometry? Geometry? Calculus? Etc?
 

Offline jccc

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #44 on: 20/06/2014 06:59:01 »
Haha, I don't know what's the second thing. The rest 3 was like c- in school.

Sweet night Pete, I be thinking long time.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #45 on: 20/06/2014 08:02:32 »
Quote from: jccc
I thought particles have mass, charge, shape just like matter.
Particles have mass and charge. They donít have a shape though. However particles like electrons are thought to be point particles which has no dimensions at all.

So particles could have charge, mass and spin but no volume?

Quote from: jccc
That's why I ask the impact angle of photon and electron.
But you never told me what you meant by impact angle of photon and electron. As far as I know there is no such thing. As I indicated you have it confused with impact parameter and scattering angle.

Quote from: jccc
It is spooky to think how photon is produced, why all kinds of photons have the same speed but different impact momentum?
They differ by wavelength.

So photon moves along a sin wave path?

Quote from: jccc
What's the gun that shooting photons?
Atoms emit photons when one of the electrons transitions from a higher state of energy to a lower state. When that happens a photon is emitted.

What is state of energy? How it works?

Quote from: jccc
What's the mechanism?
I donít think that anybody knows other than what Iíve said.

Don't know the mechanism, how is the theory stands?

Quote from: jccc
How photon becomes heat?
When a photon hits an atom some of the energy can go into the kinetic energy of the atom. When the kinetic energy of the atoms that makes up a body increases the temperature increases.

What is the kinetic energy of the atom? Is it the vibration of the electron bond within atoms?

Quote from: jccc
Is it possible more than one photon hit electron within a very short time so give electron higher escaping speed/voltage?
I donít see why not.

If so, use same color denser light beam should produce higher voltage, is it true?

Thanks Pete.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #46 on: 20/06/2014 09:21:18 »
Quote from: jccc
So particles could have charge, mass and spin but no volume?
Yes. Thatís correct.

Quote from: jccc
So photon moves along a sin wave path?
Not really, no.

Quote from: jccc
What is state of energy? How it works?
Youíd understand it better if I rephrased it since that may not make sense to you given that youíre not a native English speaker. Itís the same as if I phrased it like this

Atoms emit photons when one of the electrons transitions from a quantum state having energy E_m to a quantum state having the energy E_n where E_n < E_m.

Does that make more sense?

Quote from: jccc
Don't know the mechanism, how is the theory stands?
Why shouldnít it? Theories arenít always mean to define the mechanism for things in nature. Most of the time they merely describe whatís going on in nature. You donít seem to understand that part of physics. You seem to think physics is all about knowing all the mechanisms of how nature does what it does. If so then youíre way off.

Quote from: jccc
What is the kinetic energy of the atom?
If the atom of mass m is moving much slower than the speed of light then its kinetic energy is K = mv^2/2

Quote from: jccc
If so, use same color denser light beam should produce higher voltage, is it true?
Why would a laser beam produce any voltage at all? Are you referring to the strength of the field of the light it emits?
 

Offline jccc

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #47 on: 20/06/2014 15:49:20 »
Quote from: jccc
So particles could have charge, mass and spin but no volume?
Yes. Thatís correct.

How's that possible? Spin without volume? How do you know it spins? Deriction? Speed? Is point particles real or imaginary?

Quote from: jccc
So photon moves along a sin wave path?
Not really, no.

How's photons moving path? A straight line or what? How a particle moves a wave patten?
Quote from: jccc
What is state of energy? How it works?
Youíd understand it better if I rephrased it since that may not make sense to you given that youíre not a native English speaker. Itís the same as if I phrased it like this

Atoms emit photons when one of the electrons transitions from a quantum state having energy E_m to a quantum state having the energy E_n where E_n < E_m.

Does that make more sense?

How atom emit photon? What is electron's quantum state? I understand the rest.

Quote from: jccc
Don't know the mechanism, how is the theory stands?
Why shouldnít it? Theories arenít always mean to define the mechanism for things in nature. Most of the time they merely describe whatís going on in nature. You donít seem to understand that part of physics. You seem to think physics is all about knowing all the mechanisms of how nature does what it does. If so then youíre way off.
 
I am way off, I thought theory is men describe what he thinks is going on nature.

Quote from: jccc
What is the kinetic energy of the atom?
If the atom of mass m is moving much slower than the speed of light then its kinetic energy is K = mv^2/2

I mean the energy photon transfered to a rest atom, does the impact force make the electron vibrating faster or obiting higher? If photon is particle, it's kinetic energy should be mc^2/2, why E=h x frenquency?
Quote from: jccc
If so, use same color denser light beam should produce higher voltage, is it true?
Why would a laser beam produce any voltage at all? Are you referring to the strength of the field of the light it emits?

I am thinking solar cell in the yard, if we use few mirrors to reflact more sun light on the cell, do we get more current or voltage?
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #48 on: 20/06/2014 22:00:33 »
Quote from: jccc
I am thinking solar cell in the yard, if we use few mirrors to reflact more sun light on the cell, do we get more current or voltage?
More current. When you reflect light from other areas onto a solar cell, all you are doing is pouring more of the same kind of photons onto the photocell. There will be a linear relationship between the amount of light in photons per second and the current the photocell produces. Therefore if N photons per second produces a current of I then 2N photons per second will produce a current of 2I.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: How is water heated?
« Reply #49 on: 21/06/2014 01:59:00 »
Pete, Thanks. I am thinking, next life I better just study auto repair.

Thanks everyone, all my teachers.

Wish you great weekend!
 

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Re: How is water heated?
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