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Author Topic: Wharp Drive? S.Ilinca magnetic jet engine on Oberth effect  (Read 18906 times)

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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What do you think- my engine on the Oberth effect  will work or not?


 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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this is the main part explaining the Oberth effect: (citation)-
"Take 1/2 of m (v + vb)v2, and you get 1/2 mv2 as well as 1/2 mvb2, the kinetic energy you'd expect from adding these two speeds. On top of that, you also get m(v * vb). The pink rectangle above is Oberth gravy.

For example a kilogram going 10 meters/second has kinetic energy of 50 joules; a kilogram going 2 meters/second has kinetic energy of 2 joules. But a kilogram moving (10 + 2) meters/second doesn't have a kinetic energy of 52 joules, rather (50 + 2 + (10 * 2)) joules. Starting with a 10 meter/second speed and speeding up another 2 meters a second gives you a 20 joule Oberth benefit.

So accelerating a mass already moving fast gives you more kinetic energy for your buck."
 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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I am correctly or not-in this case here?
« Last Edit: 22/06/2014 11:05:13 by Ilinca Sergiu »
 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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I think in the case of accelerating, the energy of the jet stream will be:
 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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I propose to consider a model, in which supposedly thrust nozzle behaves like a mass.( resists the movement as some mass). In this case- in my opinion F=F*v=10000000kg, in Oberth opinion m=(v*vb)=10000000kg. What is it : a simple coincidence? I and Oberth are wrong? Or are both right,and we see the same process-which is outside incorrectly seen as (v+v).
 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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Wikipedia about the Oberth effect (why the motion of a rocket increases the kinetic energy of the propellant ):
-    e=av
-    E=Fv
-    E=Fs
 I try to show that:
-If acceleration increases the weight of the propellant in a nozzle :  ( ma=F ) , F=mav,
-If to consider (F) of thrust identical to  (m) mass :  (F=m) , F=Fv,
-If not  consider (F) of thrust identical to  (m) mass : F=m(v*vb) ,that is identical to F=Fv,
-if considered covered by a nozzle distance (s) instead of speed (v) : F=Fs,

See no differences except the fact that I have the engine moves relative to the ship,  Oberth relative to the selected point ( or celestial body ).
 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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Take a look from the other side .
1 kg of burning hydrogen has approximately 120 MJ energy. This is - work in 12000000 kgm.  This energy can move 12000000 kg per 1 meter . In a vacuum, this will mean that a lot had the effect of F in 12000000 kg . So when almost isochorically process 1 kg of hydrogen can give a great power - 12000000 kg . ( for more isochorically process (F) increases proportionally) .

 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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 look at the nozzle my motor which moves with acceleration equal to the acceleration of a jet . (Compare with previous models).
 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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Turns out the same.
If there is a point of reference:
-If acceleration increases the weight of the propellant in a nozzle :  ( ma=F ) , F=mav,
-If to consider (F) of thrust identical to  (m) mass :  (F=m) , F=Fv,
-If not  consider (F) of thrust identical to  (m) mass : F=m(v*vb) ,that is identical to F=Fv,
-if considered covered by a nozzle distance (s) instead of speed (v) : F=Fs,
and,
If no point of reference:
-transformation of Isobaric process in Isochorically and increases static component of thrust.

Someone may ask, " where does so much energy in the jet stream?  . The answer is nowhere. She just used more rationally . Jet stream does not spend its energy on your and other movement . All the energy of fuel is running on the pressure  and the last becomes the speed of electromagnetic forces . Electromagnetic forces create acceleration (gravity) which serves as a cap on the path of the jet stream.
 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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Indeed F thrust can behave identically of the mass?
I think Yes . If you put two trucks that were pulled from the abyss weight 3000kg and engine nozzle thrust 3000kg ,there would be no difference. (if the thrust nozzle is equal to the weight of the mass).
If the driver does not know that pulls from the abyss - in both cases, he will think that this mass 3000 kg . Both cases will be absolutely identical ( energy, velocity and acceleration of the truck, fuel consumption ).
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Wharp Drive? S.Ilinca magnetic jet engine on Oberth effect
« Reply #10 on: 23/06/2014 11:19:52 »
Could you simple it down a little for me?

What are you proposing? That using the Oberth principle your constant acceleration becomes cheaper than some other when using your design? Or? As far as I get it you have it working at all accelerations, so what makes your design better?

And if so, What is it you think will be giving the Oberth principle a better 'punch'?
 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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Re: Wharp Drive? S.Ilinca magnetic jet engine on Oberth effect
« Reply #11 on: 23/06/2014 16:35:23 »
This engine should generate savings of propellant.
I think it can be compared with the internal combustion engine. My engine is used cylinder head and pressure ( more isochoric process), another cylinder head is missing and is used only impulse of jet stream (isobaric process).
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Wharp Drive? S.Ilinca magnetic jet engine on Oberth effect
« Reply #12 on: 01/07/2014 07:14:14 »
Are you suggesting that by directing a force, working opposite (against) the rockets acceleration, you will get the equivalence of a added mass, that then will add to a higher fuel efficiency, by using the Oberth principle?
 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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Re: Wharp Drive? S.Ilinca magnetic jet engine on Oberth effect
« Reply #13 on: 01/07/2014 13:20:32 »
Are you suggesting that by directing a force, working opposite (against) the rockets acceleration, you will get the equivalence of a added mass, that then will add to a higher fuel efficiency, by using the Oberth principle?

F(thrust) = m(mass) + isochoric process ? 
Most likely it should be so. But may be the same process.
Don't know.
F(thrust) = m(mass) can check with a simple experiment(with isochoric process more difficult)
 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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Re: Wharp Drive? S.Ilinca magnetic jet engine on Oberth effect
« Reply #14 on: 02/07/2014 17:34:44 »
Are you suggesting that by directing a force, working opposite (against) the rockets acceleration, you will get the equivalence of a added mass, that then will add to a higher fuel efficiency, by using the Oberth principle?

F(thrust) = m(mass) + isochoric process ? 
Most likely it should be so. But may be the same process.
Don't know.
F(thrust) = m(mass) can check with a simple experiment(with isochoric process more difficult)

The experiment is simple and low cost. Maybe propose it for "Mythbusters" ?
 

Offline Atomic-S

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Re: Wharp Drive? S.Ilinca magnetic jet engine on Oberth effect
« Reply #15 on: 04/07/2014 06:06:00 »
I am nnot sure I understand this, but the following can be stated in general:  Existing spacecraft are launched by multi-stage rockets that harness the fact that energy from a prior stage is transferred kinetically to the fuel in subsequent stages, so that when they finally ignite, they are doing more work on the remaining payload than simply the energy supplied by their own combustion. However, you must have all the necessary early stages in order that the later stages will enjoy this advantage. That still can take a lot of fuel. As long as chemical popellants are the energy source, there are certain limitations. An innovative new way of overcoming such limits is the ion engine. In it, the propellant is not burned, but is electromagnetically accelerated using another source of energy, such as solar panels. These kinds of engines are much more efficient than regular engines, and one such space craft is currently flying and, thanks to the engine, will be able to stop at one asteroid, examine it, and then to on for a second mission to another. 
 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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Re: Wharp Drive? S.Ilinca magnetic jet engine on Oberth effect
« Reply #16 on: 04/07/2014 16:21:19 »
Many perceive Oberth effect only with move the jet engine (rockets) in a circular orbit. So I suggest the model of my engine with circular motion of jet engine. Maybe it will be more clear what I mean.
The only difference here is what I have instead of the gravity - acceleration (but  according to Einstein they are identical).
 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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Re: Wharp Drive? S.Ilinca magnetic jet engine on Oberth effect
« Reply #17 on: 04/07/2014 18:20:38 »
I am nnot sure I understand this, but the following can be stated in general:  Existing spacecraft are launched by multi-stage rockets that harness the fact that energy from a prior stage is transferred kinetically to the fuel in subsequent stages, so that when they finally ignite, they are doing more work on the remaining payload than simply the energy supplied by their own combustion. However, you must have all the necessary early stages in order that the later stages will enjoy this advantage. That still can take a lot of fuel. As long as chemical popellants are the energy source, there are certain limitations. An innovative new way of overcoming such limits is the ion engine. In it, the propellant is not burned, but is electromagnetically accelerated using another source of energy, such as solar panels. These kinds of engines are much more efficient than regular engines, and one such space craft is currently flying and, thanks to the engine, will be able to stop at one asteroid, examine it, and then to on for a second mission to another.

 Yes I agree Oberth effect is really difficult. I think because its mechanism nobody studied in detail ( limited to the formulas and application on the orbital maneuvers) - it happens often ,if something is not clear given the name and measured quantitative part.
 I think Oberth effect is the relationship between accelerated jet engine with the power which this acceleration is doing (I don't know examples where someone studied the effect of accelerated jet engine in a closed impulse system on the overall impulse of this system.
 My engine can be explained simply - if accelerate jet engine against his thrust , this F thrust is identical to the mass ( if jet engine has traction 3000 kgf this thrust will be to resist acceleration  identical mass in 3000 kg.( Oberth m(v*vb), )
 Yes electric jet engine has some advantages in comparison with the chemical. But no one ,will not be able to bring the speed of the spacecraft to 100000-200000 km/s . My engine can it.
 
P.S.  I think accelerating electric jet engine against his thrust you can concentrate in its nozzle more propelant and to resolve its main problem.
 

Offline JP

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Re: Wharp Drive? S.Ilinca magnetic jet engine on Oberth effect
« Reply #18 on: 04/07/2014 18:51:34 »
I am nnot sure I understand this, but the following can be stated in general:  Existing spacecraft are launched by multi-stage rockets that harness the fact that energy from a prior stage is transferred kinetically to the fuel in subsequent stages, so that when they finally ignite, they are doing more work on the remaining payload than simply the energy supplied by their own combustion. However, you must have all the necessary early stages in order that the later stages will enjoy this advantage. That still can take a lot of fuel. As long as chemical popellants are the energy source, there are certain limitations. An innovative new way of overcoming such limits is the ion engine. In it, the propellant is not burned, but is electromagnetically accelerated using another source of energy, such as solar panels. These kinds of engines are much more efficient than regular engines, and one such space craft is currently flying and, thanks to the engine, will be able to stop at one asteroid, examine it, and then to on for a second mission to another.

 Yes I agree Oberth effect is really difficult. I think because its mechanism nobody studied in detail ( limited to the formulas and application on the orbital maneuvers) - it happens often ,if something is not clear given the name and measured quantitative part.

Not true.  The Oberth effect is well understood and Oberth studied it in detail (hence giving his name to it).  Atomic-S is correct: one way of understanding it is as he explained with multi-stage engines.  Moreover, even if you don't call it "the Oberth effect," it is automatically accounted for by simply applying Newtonian mechanics to rockets. 

 Oberth's original writeup exploring this for NASA is here: https://archive.org/details/nasa_techdoc_19720008133
 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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Re: Wharp Drive? S.Ilinca magnetic jet engine on Oberth effect
« Reply #19 on: 05/07/2014 08:42:10 »
I am nnot sure I understand this, but the following can be stated in general:  Existing spacecraft are launched by multi-stage rockets that harness the fact that energy from a prior stage is transferred kinetically to the fuel in subsequent stages, so that when they finally ignite, they are doing more work on the remaining payload than simply the energy supplied by their own combustion. However, you must have all the necessary early stages in order that the later stages will enjoy this advantage. That still can take a lot of fuel. As long as chemical popellants are the energy source, there are certain limitations. An innovative new way of overcoming such limits is the ion engine. In it, the propellant is not burned, but is electromagnetically accelerated using another source of energy, such as solar panels. These kinds of engines are much more efficient than regular engines, and one such space craft is currently flying and, thanks to the engine, will be able to stop at one asteroid, examine it, and then to on for a second mission to another.

 Yes I agree Oberth effect is really difficult. I think because its mechanism nobody studied in detail ( limited to the formulas and application on the orbital maneuvers) - it happens often ,if something is not clear given the name and measured quantitative part.

Not true.  The Oberth effect is well understood and Oberth studied it in detail (hence giving his name to it).  Atomic-S is correct: one way of understanding it is as he explained with multi-stage engines.  Moreover, even if you don't call it "the Oberth effect," it is automatically accounted for by simply applying Newtonian mechanics to rockets. 

 Oberth's original writeup exploring this for NASA is here: https://archive.org/details/nasa_techdoc_19720008133
Thanks for the link.
I said what Atomic-S is wrong ? That Oberth effect it is not classical mechanics ? What it does not apply in straight-line movement?
If I said it - sorry.
 "The Oberth effect is well understood and Oberth studied it in detail " -if so here is my engine, is applicable Oberth effect for my case or not? Where is experimental work with accelerated jet engine? Oberth effect is the change in speed and gravity - in mechanism of both these elements are - acceleration. 
 
 

Offline JP

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Re: Wharp Drive? S.Ilinca magnetic jet engine on Oberth effect
« Reply #20 on: 05/07/2014 12:13:35 »
Ok, I think there's a few reasons why your posts haven't gotten much response.

First, posting lots of different posts with different images is going to overwhelm any reader.  If you can summarize your point or question in a single, concise post, it's a lot likelier to get responses.

Second, although you may not be able to improve this, I think there's a language barrier.  I can't understand much of what you're trying to ask here, so I can't really comment on it. 

Coming back to your question about the Oberth effect and gravity: the Oberth effect says, as Atomic-S points out, that it is more efficient to carry fuel with you in multi-stage rockets than not, since fuel moving with you at high speeds has a lot of kinetic energy due to its motion in addition to its chemical potential energy. 

Gravity is a separate force in the universe that doesn't have anything to do with the Oberth effect.
 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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Re: Wharp Drive? S.Ilinca magnetic jet engine on Oberth effect
« Reply #21 on: 07/07/2014 13:01:20 »
Ok, I think there's a few reasons why your posts haven't gotten much response.

First, posting lots of different posts with different images is going to overwhelm any reader.  If you can summarize your point or question in a single, concise post, it's a lot likelier to get responses.

Second, although you may not be able to improve this, I think there's a language barrier.  I can't understand much of what you're trying to ask here, so I can't really comment on it. 

Coming back to your question about the Oberth effect and gravity: the Oberth effect says, as Atomic-S points out, that it is more efficient to carry fuel with you in multi-stage rockets than not, since fuel moving with you at high speeds has a lot of kinetic energy due to its motion in addition to its chemical potential energy. 

Gravity is a separate force in the universe that doesn't have anything to do with the Oberth effect.

Yes JP my English is difficult to name - the language.And I more hope for the pictures.
 I agree that is more efficient to carry fuel with you in multi-stage rockets than not, since fuel moving with you at high speeds has a lot of kinetic energy due to its motion in addition to its chemical potential energy.
 But this is a very simplified explanation.
1.More chemical potential energy of fuel means more rockets speed against any of the reference system  (  how hard I ran around the rocket I won't be able to increase its fuel energy).
2.Chemical potential energy of rocket moving at a uniform speed ,will not differ from the energy of not moving rocket.
 To this energy increased need to have some interaction between the reference frame and the rocket (Or she was moving with acceleration).
This interaction canto happen only through gravity or through acceleration. ( according to Einstein and the experiences - there is no difference between moving with acceleration of the reference system and the gravity).
"Gravity is a separate force in the universe that doesn't have anything to do with the Oberth effect"-
 Obert effect is (V*Vb) the change of speed - the speed change is always (ACCELERATION).
 Obert effect is (V escap)- and this it is impossible to imagine without  (GRAVITY).
 

Offline JP

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Re: Wharp Drive? S.Ilinca magnetic jet engine on Oberth effect
« Reply #22 on: 07/07/2014 17:12:30 »
I think you're misunderstanding how relativity works.  The laws of physics will hold in any reference frame, but this does not mean that the energy or change in energy calculated is identical in any reference frame.  Clearly if I run around a stationary rocket (stationary here on earth), I will measure its kinetic energy as changing as my velocity changes.  This has no deep physical meaning aside from the fact that I'm running around the rocket.
 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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Re: Wharp Drive? S.Ilinca magnetic jet engine on Oberth effect
« Reply #23 on: 08/07/2014 09:17:26 »
I think you're misunderstanding how relativity works.  The laws of physics will hold in any reference frame, but this does not mean that the energy or change in energy calculated is identical in any reference frame.  Clearly if I run around a stationary rocket (stationary here on earth), I will measure its kinetic energy as changing as my velocity changes.  This has no deep physical meaning aside from the fact that I'm running around the rocket.

Yes I don't understand.
-Why measure the energy of rocket on to the system with which it does not interact. (rocket on earth interacts with the gravitational field of the earth that is why we can speak about some relative energy) rocket-earth. But it does not interact with a distant star, and in this case what is the sense of the relative energy of the rocket-star).
Not our imagination defines the appearance of the relative system. It arises where there is energy interaction (gravity, collisions, acceleration another).
  -using Oberth effect near the earth, you can increase the speed of a rocket from 10 km/s to 13 km/s (increased speedin in relation not only the earth but also any other point of the universe). Do at such low speeds have such a big impact laws of relativity (they are significant only when v=c)? Of course not.Then than we explain Oberth effect- "hybrid theory of relativity and Newtonian mechanics"?-I think it's wrong.
 -Oberth effect without gravity is impossible.And the only thing we know about gravity is that it generates the acceleration or weight.
« Last Edit: 11/07/2014 13:03:13 by Ilinca Sergiu »
 

Offline Ilinca Sergiu

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Re: Wharp Drive? S.Ilinca magnetic jet engine on Oberth effect
« Reply #24 on: 11/07/2014 13:37:09 »
Ex. of popular explanations. "(The fuel is going faster, so it gives more thrust. When it has left the ship in the exhaust, the fuel is going, overall, slower. In numerical terms, if you fuel is moving towards the left at 2 km per second, and is ejected to the right at 3 km per second, the overall velocity change is only 1 km per second. The difference between 3 and 1 is given to the ship. So the ship ends up gaining a lot more velocity, but only if the burn happens at the exact moment when the fuel has gained the most velocity from the gravity of the planet)".

 – I think this explanation is not complete and therefore wrong., Why?

-.Chemical potential energy of rocket moving at a uniform speed ,will not differ from the energy of not moving rocket.

 ("but only if the burn happens at the exact moment when the fuel has gained the most velocity from the gravity of the planet. That is why the Oberth manoeuver needs to be done quickly with a powerful acceleration").
 Yes, but what is the mechanism?. What exactly is changes in the fuel? : -changing the speed of the jet stream relative to the combustion chamber ? (then there will be a specific change in dynamic and static components of thrust ).- increases resistance to acceleration the particles of propellant ?( then the weight of particles is identical to the mass).

("most velocity from the gravity") – this is not an acceleration?…
 

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Re: Wharp Drive? S.Ilinca magnetic jet engine on Oberth effect
« Reply #24 on: 11/07/2014 13:37:09 »

 

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