The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Is spin the builder of gravity ?  (Read 2684 times)

Offline percepts

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 53
    • View Profile
Is spin the builder of gravity ?
« on: 16/07/2014 18:59:30 »
Is spin the builder of gravity ?

question says it all.


 

Offline chiralSPO

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1867
  • Thanked: 143 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is spin the builder of gravity ?
« Reply #1 on: 16/07/2014 20:42:33 »
If you have some ideas, perhaps you could elaborate...

Just looking at particles, I don't see any correlation between spin and mass, for example:

photon: spin 1, mass 0
electron: spin 1/2, mass 9.11eľ31 kg
proton: spin 1/2, mass 1.67eľ27 kg
muon: spin 1/2, mass 1.88eľ28 kg
neutrino: spin 1/2, mass <1eľ35 kg
helium-4 nucleus: spin 0, mass 6.7eľ27 kg

As demonstrated by the helium example, fermions (like protons and neutrons) can combine to form bosons (like helium-4 nuclei), with nothing crazy happening to the mass.

Now, I understand mass ≠ gravity, but clearly there is a pretty strong relationship there...
 

Offline percepts

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 53
    • View Profile
Re: Is spin the builder of gravity ?
« Reply #2 on: 17/07/2014 00:19:20 »
I'm not a mathematician so I like to try and visualise to understand things. I see spiral galaxies spinning and I presume getting smaller which at same time increases local gravity as more mass is accumulated in a smaller space. So I just wondered if spin had anything to do with the collapse and resulting increased gravity.
 

Offline UltimateTheory

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 107
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • View Profile
    • Ultimate Theory of the Universe
Re: Is spin the builder of gravity ?
« Reply #3 on: 17/07/2014 00:58:17 »
Is spin the builder of gravity ?

No.

Any particle is contributing to gravity a bit.

You're mixing quantum spin, with spinning stars around galaxy center, spinning planet around star etc.

 

Offline jccc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
    • View Profile
Re: Is spin the builder of gravity ?
« Reply #4 on: 17/07/2014 17:13:54 »
Mass produces gravity. Atoms build mass. Charges build atoms.

Gravity has to relate to charges.

I suspect that for some unknown reason, the net attraction force between two masses opposite charges is always slightly bigger than the repulsion force between same charges. Therefore gravity is proportional to mass. Mass is proportional to total charges it carries.

The reason could be geometry of the charges position caused by induction.
 

Offline UltimateTheory

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 107
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • View Profile
    • Ultimate Theory of the Universe
Re: Is spin the builder of gravity ?
« Reply #5 on: 17/07/2014 17:30:17 »
Bohr magneton is e*Planck const reduced/(2*mass of electron)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr_magneton

Nuclear magneton is e*Planck const reduced/(2*mass of proton)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_magneton
« Last Edit: 17/07/2014 18:33:47 by UltimateTheory »
 

Offline chiralSPO

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1867
  • Thanked: 143 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is spin the builder of gravity ?
« Reply #6 on: 17/07/2014 18:41:17 »
Mass produces gravity. Atoms build mass. Charges build atoms.

Gravity has to relate to charges.

I suspect that for some unknown reason, the net attraction force between two masses opposite charges is always slightly bigger than the repulsion force between same charges. Therefore gravity is proportional to mass. Mass is proportional to total charges it carries.

The reason could be geometry of the charges position caused by induction.

At one point I wondered the same thing. But then I realized that neutrons and protons have essentially the same gravitational mass, so it couldn't be related to charge.

I certainly believe we have much work to do on our models of gravitation--it seems to me that dark matter and possibly dark energy are manifestations of how poorly our gravity models work. While I think there could be some substance (figuratively and literally) to the WIMPs explanation of dark matter, I do wonder whether a simple tweak to our very simplistic model of gravity would allow predictions closer to those observed without invoking some very exotic (otherwise unobservable?) matter. Also that there is difficulty with gravity on a quantum scale suggests to me that something is not right with the present models.
 

Offline jccc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 990
    • View Profile
Re: Is spin the builder of gravity ?
« Reply #7 on: 17/07/2014 19:12:48 »
Neutron contains 1 positive charge and 1 negative charge.

Just like the moon contains 10^?? positive charges and 10^?? negative charges.

Even 1 single electron put far away from Earth, it attracts all positive charges on Earth yet repel all electrons on Earth, the induction made the net force little attraction.
 

Offline UltimateTheory

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 107
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • View Profile
    • Ultimate Theory of the Universe
Re: Is spin the builder of gravity ?
« Reply #8 on: 17/07/2014 20:29:00 »
Neutron contains 1 positive charge and 1 negative charge.

No.

Just like the moon contains 10^?? positive charges and 10^?? negative charges.

Moon has neutral charge. Same quantity of protons as electrons that cancel each other charge. Overall 0.

Even 1 single electron put far away from Earth, it attracts all positive charges on Earth yet repel all electrons on Earth, the induction made the net force little attraction.

There was such theory in the past of science, but was showed to be wrong a long time ago..

Charged objects are behaving in specific manner in electric fields and magnetic fields. So if you would have charged f.e. apple, after putting it to electric and magnetic fields, it should not fall to the ground..

See oil drop experiment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_drop_experiment

In this experiment we're at the beginning have electric neutral oil drop,
then ionizing oil drop by bombarding it by x-rays
after oil drop lost electrons, it has positive charge.
And starts levitating in electric field (caused by electrodes with a few thousands volts).
If voltage is increased oil drop can even move up..
« Last Edit: 17/07/2014 20:36:34 by UltimateTheory »
 

Offline evan_au

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4096
  • Thanked: 244 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is spin the builder of gravity ?
« Reply #9 on: 17/07/2014 22:03:48 »
Quote from: percepts
I see spiral galaxies spinning and I presume getting smaller
In a galaxy, stars interact gravitationally, and they will exchange (angular) momentum.

Conservation of angular momentum means that for every star that loses angular momentum and falls in towards the center of the galaxy, another star gains angular momentum and moves further from the center of the galaxy.

So, overall, galaxies will not shrink over time.

(Note: Gravitational interactions behave differently than frictional/viscosity interactions in the accretion disk around a black hole.)
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Is spin the builder of gravity ?
« Reply #9 on: 17/07/2014 22:03:48 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums