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Author Topic: Is there any voltage in between electron and proton in hydrogen atoms?  (Read 15270 times)

Offline jccc

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We know the charges and radius, can we calculate the voltage? 

What's the maximum voltage we can create in lab?  Thanks


 

Offline PmbPhy

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We know the charges and radius, can we calculate the voltage? 

What's the maximum voltage we can create in lab?  Thanks
Why do you keep ignoring everything that I've explained to you about quantum physics? I told you time and again that particles don't have a position such that it can be said to be at a particular location or radius?
 

Offline jccc

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Pete,

I don't understand QM, not I don't believe you. Particle don't have a position, how come atom has volume?
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Pete,

I don't understand QM, not I don't believe you. Particle don't have a position, how come atom has volume?
I kept showing you orbital diagrams by giving you links to them. Didn't you even look at them? If not then see
http://winter.group.shef.ac.uk/orbitron/

On the left you can click on the various orbitals. They are described by such things as 1s, 2s, 3s, 3p etc. Click on them and you'll see how the electron probability distribution is given. In some instances you can think of that as the "shape" of the atom such as this one
http://winter.group.shef.ac.uk/orbitron/AOs/2p/index.html

Molecules form when the orbitals overlap. That means their sharing the outer electrons in the atom. For that reason they're called "covalent bonds." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covalent_bond

The older quantum theory is what you've been thinking about. In the older theory the Bohr model of, say, the hydrogen atom an electron circles the electron only at certain radii but not radiating while orbiting. Only when the electron moves from one orbit to another one with a change of energy does it radiate. The value of the energy radiated is equal to the change in energy levels of the atom and the form or radiation is a photon. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr_model

The change in voltage is accompanied by a change V in electrostatic energy, eV.  An electron in the lowest energy level has a total  energy of -13.6 eV.
« Last Edit: 25/07/2014 04:53:47 by PmbPhy »
 

Offline jccc

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Pete,
 
Back in school, I was pretty good at those P S N orbitals, I believed everything I learned. One time I even seen in my mind that light wave move like 90 degree double sin wavies.

Getting older, think again, read again, tell you truth, those orbitals on wiki look like fine art.

I am sorry my dear friend, you spent lot of time trying to help me, I still let you down.

What kind of fish should I eat? How many?
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: jccc
Pete,
 
Back in school, ..
Was that highschool or college?

Quote from: jccc
I was pretty good at those P S N orbitals, I believed everything I learned. One time I even seen in my mind that light wave move like 90 degree double sin wavies.

Getting older, think again, read again, tell you truth, those orbitals on wiki look like fine art.

I am sorry my dear friend, you spent lot of time trying to help me, I still let you down.

What kind of fish should I eat? How many?
No worries by dear friend. It's the effort that counts. There were things I myself didn't get. I recall one time when I was reading my first text on GR that I came to a paragraph that I just couldn't get. No matter how many times I read it I couldn't understand it. After reading it 50 times do you think I gave up? No. How about after 95 times? Do you think I gave up then? No. What about 99 times? Nope. What about after reading that same paragraph for 100 times! Yes! It was only after reading it 100 times that I finally got it (of course I didn't really count the number of times but it seemed like I read it countless times. I simply got lost as to how many times I read it).

Just keep trying and understand this - If you're confused about it then you probably understand it better than you think. It's know for being hard to understand because we're simply not used to thinking in those terms. We were born that way. Our brains were wired through evolution to think in terms of classical mechanics, not quantum mechanics. Simply think about this - In quantum mechanics you only know what you can measure. Schrodinger's equation gives you all the information about a system that can be known about the system. For a one particle system, the square magnitude of the wave function 00ce21103c881f8ff3e0bf735406ede8.gif times the volume element of a small region of space 64e7c3c2f6701f0d8102be310ff5cbdc.gif gives you the probability P(r) of measuring the particle to be in that volume centered at the position r. I.e.

cb61aa50664adc4a603bc18b6ffed4f5.gif

That's the kind of think that quantum mechanics can tell you.

Please don't get me wrong though. Those older models are useful sometimes. In fact sometimes you can imagine the electron moving in circular orbits and you can get a good idea of how magnetism works like that.
« Last Edit: 25/07/2014 07:09:27 by PmbPhy »
 

Offline UltimateTheory

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An electron in the lowest energy level has a total  energy of -13.6 eV.

13.6 eV energy is needed to ionize just Hydrogen (proton + electron pair).

In heavier elements like Helium He1+ it's ~54.4 eV, Lithium Li2+ it's ~122.4 eV, and so on. For Gold Au78+ it's ~85 keV.
Ionization energy when there is Z protons in nucleus, and just 1 electron is approximately 13.6 * Z^2.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: UltimateTheory
13.6 eV energy is needed to ionize just Hydrogen (proton + electron pair).
The subject of this thread is Is there any voltage in between electron and proton in hydrogen atoms?
« Last Edit: 25/07/2014 10:22:41 by PmbPhy »
 

Offline jccc

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An electron in the lowest energy level has a total  energy of -13.6 eV.

13.6 eV energy is needed to ionize just Hydrogen (proton + electron pair).

In heavier elements like Helium He1+ it's ~54.4 eV, Lithium Li2+ it's ~122.4 eV, and so on. For Gold Au78+ it's ~85 keV.
Ionization energy when there is Z protons in nucleus, and just 1 electron is approximately 13.6 * Z^2.

Interesting. Make some sense. The more charge in nucleus the stronger attraction to electron therefore need more energy to move it away. Don't get the Z^2 part. Why not 13.6*Z instead?

 

Offline UltimateTheory

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Interesting. Make some sense. The more charge in nucleus the stronger attraction to electron therefore need more energy to move it away. Don't get the Z^2 part. Why not 13.6*Z instead?

All these data are coming from experiments.
Scientists analyze data, and trying to figure out why they have such value not other, trying to create theories explaining results from experiments.

If you analyze data
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionization_energies_of_the_elements_%28data_page%29
relation Z^2 is clearly visible.


In exotic atoms such as muonium ionization energy will be completely different.
« Last Edit: 25/07/2014 10:38:40 by UltimateTheory »
 

Offline UltimateTheory

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The subject of this thread is Is there any voltage in between electron and proton in hydrogen atoms?

See last post jccc - he didn't know about it. So it was worth mentioning. The whole point of discussion is to learn people things they didn't know before.
 

Offline jccc

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UT, appreciate your help.

I had enough trying to just learn hydrogen, why you put out heavy atoms at me?

He is Pete, a nice science guy and a brother of ours, please don't mess with him.

All the respect.

Joe
 

Offline jccc

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I don't know how to convert static force into voltage, but proton and electron at atom radius distance should produce very high voltage, maybe millions ev.

If that is correct, should any discharge happen?   
 

Offline PmbPhy

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I don't know how to convert static force into voltage, but proton and electron at atom radius distance should produce very high voltage, maybe millions ev.

If that is correct, should any discharge happen?
Would you like to try the calculation yourself or do you want me to do it for you? The electrostatic potential due to a point charge Q which is located at the origin is given by

987dbb4a5d5f6ec1aaf9dd619ff7595c.gif

where 0d510809d2f7f78280c066efe210395c.gif is Coulomb's constant and has the value cb163cfd299f50e3ef771fa06a6d99de.gif. r is the lowest value in the Bohr model of the atom and has the value f2a34903c65346b6469288d426f6e0bb.gif where e = charge of the electron and me is the proper mass of the electron.

It's a bit of juggling of constants that I'd rather not bother with. Time for you to do some work my friend. :)
« Last Edit: 26/07/2014 04:07:06 by PmbPhy »
 

Offline jccc

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I don't know how to convert static force into voltage, but proton and electron at atom radius distance should produce very high voltage, maybe millions ev.

If that is correct, should any discharge happen?
Would you like to try the calculation yourself or do you want me to do it for you? The electrostatic potential due to a point charge Q which is located at the origin is given by

987dbb4a5d5f6ec1aaf9dd619ff7595c.gif

where 0d510809d2f7f78280c066efe210395c.gif is Coulomb's constant and has the value cb163cfd299f50e3ef771fa06a6d99de.gif. r is the lowest value in the Bohr model of the atom and has the value f2a34903c65346b6469288d426f6e0bb.gif where e = charge of the electron and me is the proper mass of the electron.

It's a bit of juggling of constants that I'd rather not bother with. Time for you to do some work my friend. :)

Pete, even I calculated the force correct, how to convert it into voltage?

If we connect car battery to two metal plates distance 1 meter, the voltage in between is 12 V, now we move the plates distance to 2 meter, how many V it will be? 

When we move more electrons from one plate to another, is the voltage between them increase?

So maybe move 10% electrons produce 10,000 V, 30% produce 1,000,000 v something like that?

 
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: jccc
Pete, even I calculated the force correct, how to convert it into voltage?
I just told you how to do that. The value that you're looking for is the V in the first equation I gave. Just do the arithmetic out.

Quote from: jccc
If we connect car battery to two metal plates distance 1 meter, the voltage in between is 12 V, now we move the plates distance to 2 meter, how many V it will be?
V is independent of how far apart the plates are. All that will change is the strength of the electric field in-between the plates.

Quote from: jccc
When we move more electrons from one plate to another, is the voltage between them increase?
Yes.

Quote from: jccc
So maybe move 10% electrons produce 10,000 V, 30% produce 1,000,000 v something like that?
The relationship between charge and potential is given by Q = CV where C is the capacitance of the geometry of the conductors.
 

Offline jccc

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A simple little question might move the foundation of the theory of atomic structure.

If I calculated it right, the voltage in hydrogen atom is about 10^30 volts.

Is that a fact? If so can we make some kind of atom battery?
« Last Edit: 28/07/2014 05:54:35 by jccc »
 

Offline PmbPhy

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A simple little question might move the foundation of the theory of atomic structure.

If I calculated it right, the voltage in hydrogen atom is about 10^30 volts.

Is that a fact? If so can we make some kind of atom battery?
You're confusing a voltage with an EMF. Just because there is a difference in potential somewhere it doesn't mean that it acts like a battery.
 

Offline evan_au

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Quote from: jccc
can we make some kind of atom battery?
To make a battery (or electrical cell), you need to separate the charges so that one terminal has an excess of electrons, while the other terminal has a deficit of electrons.

The negative electrons can do useful work as they pass through a circuit to get "closer" to the positive charge.

However, an electron in an atom at room temperature is already pretty much as close at it can get to the positive nucleus in that atom; it is forbidden from getting any closer by the laws of quantum mechanics.

To make a battery, you must add a different atom which has a greater attraction for an electron than the atom it is stealing the electron from, as described in this thread: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=51992.0
 

Offline jccc

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Quote from: jccc
can we make some kind of atom battery?
To make a battery (or electrical cell), you need to separate the charges so that one terminal has an excess of electrons, while the other terminal has a deficit of electrons.

The negative electrons can do useful work as they pass through a circuit to get "closer" to the positive charge.

However, an electron in an atom at room temperature is already pretty much as close at it can get to the positive nucleus in that atom; it is forbidden from getting any closer by the laws of quantum mechanics.

To make a battery, you must add a different atom which has a greater attraction for an electron than the atom it is stealing the electron from, as described in this thread: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=51992.0

Quantum law? Well, put a quantum wire cross electron and proton so complete the circle.

Did you mean quantum repulsion = quantum law?
 

Offline chiralSPO

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Quantum law? Well, put a quantum wire cross electron and proton so complete the circle.


What exactly do you think would be the charge carrier in that wire? Macroscopic wires work by transporting electrons. If you somehow had some sort of "quantum wire" connecting an electron to a proton, you still would not get any transfer of charge in either direction because the wire is smaller than an electron. Also the electron and proton don't have any way to donate their charge--their charges are constant and part of what define them as what they are. In the case of an electron the charge is indivisible. I suppose one could argue that the proton's charge could be divided into components based on quarks, but don't expect the positively charged quarks to start leaking out of a proton just because there is a "wire" connecting it to an electron.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: evan_au
However, an electron in an atom at room temperature is already pretty much as close at it can get to the positive nucleus in that atom; it is forbidden from getting any closer by the laws of quantum mechanics.
That's not quite right. If one uses deep inelastic scattering one can actually probe the inside of hadrons! It was used to confirm the reality of quarks since it showed that protons have substructure. The evidence with protons shows that its composed of three lumps of charge. Cool, huh? :)

See - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_inelastic_scattering
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: jccc
Quantum law? Well, put a quantum wire cross electron and proton so complete the circle.

Did you mean quantum repulsion = quantum law?
Why are you referring to "quantum law"? I didn't see anybody mention that term in this thread. And he's right about such wires. It's a meaningless idea.
 

Offline jccc

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I was kidding about quantum wire, no better way to keep addressing the same problem in my head.

It is forbidden from getting any closer by the laws of quantum mechanics?

Look into the laws, it says there is potential well, energy level etc therefore bla bla so as is. I really cannot get the logic.

Sorry being emotional some times. Hope you enjoy a great day. 
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: jccc
Particle decay may caused by electricity leakage whinin atom. Obviously atom is build by electrical potential.
Nope. But what are you talking about specifically? What particles inside the atom are you referring to when you say that they are decaying? Nuclei? Proton? Neutron? Electron?

Quote from: jccc
Seems to complete the puzzle of atom structure, we need a negative sub-charged new particle,
Nope. There are currently no missing pieces of any puzzle dealing with atomic structure.

Quote from: jccc
it fills the gape in between nucleus and electrons in atoms, and it fills the whole space to conduct EM wave.
That's meaningless.
 

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