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Author Topic: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??  (Read 17440 times)

Offline parakorn

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Every one know that Einstein was the creator of the General relativity,yes I know too, But after I have read this article http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0204/0204044.pdf [nofollow] that was written by Peter M Brown who was the member here too. I also confused with this articles very much. This article said that Einstein did not create the real General relativity he didn,t think that gravity was the space time curvature but I have read many book and almost of it said that Einstein create the General relativity of space time curvature. Who can explain me and tell me that who is Peter M brown does he was the professor of any university ??


 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #1 on: 29/08/2014 03:32:05 »
Every one know that Einstein was the creator of the General relativity,yes I know too, But after I have read this article http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0204/0204044.pdf that was written by Peter M Brown who was the member here too. I also confused with this articles very much. This article said that Einstein did not create the real General relativity he didn,t think that gravity was the space time curvature but I have read many book and almost of it said that Einstein create the General relativity of space time curvature. Who can explain me and tell me that who is Peter M brown does he was the professor of any university ??
Yes. Einstein created relativity. If you read otherwise then it was wrong or you misread it. If you read that someone said that Einstein showed that Einstein proved/showed that gravity is a curvature in spacetime then they're wrong. If you understand GR then all the evidence is in that article. I never claimed that Einstein didn't create GR so you read the article incorrectly.

That's not what I wrote in that article. I explained that what physicists thought Einstein said, such as gravity = spacetime curvature, was not due to him but due to someone else, namely Max Von Laue.

I'm not a professor in a university. I worked as a physicist in the public domain before I became disabled. I'm still a physicist since my mind is still working fine. I studied general relativity at MIT and when I wrote that paper I had a general relativity expert (who's also an expert in the history of general relativity), John Stachel, confirm everything that I said in that article.
« Last Edit: 29/08/2014 03:35:53 by PmbPhy »
 

Offline parakorn

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #2 on: 29/08/2014 13:39:58 »
  I think that I have read your article clearly, Your article try to proof that there are two version of The General relativity the Einstein version and The modern version.You try to proof that Einstein did not determine the gravity as the space time curvature. If Einstein did not determine gravity as spacetime curvature why he tried to study the Riemann Geometry that was the Geometry for non euclidean of curvature geometry.
  There are many time that Einstein say that space time curvature like in http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Relativity:_The_Special_and_General_Theory/Part_III [nofollow] in section 32 first sentence he say that "According to the general theory of relativity, the geometrical properties of space are not independent, but they are determined by matter." .In year 1915 in The field equation of gravitational paper he said that space time variable http://en.wikisource.org/?curid=735695 [nofollow] and can determine by matter and energy tensor. in this paper too http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Meaning_of_Relativity/Lecture_4 [nofollow]
   Tesla criticize Einstein general relativity  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla [nofollow] he said that " I hold that space cannot be curved, for the simple reason that it can have no properties. It might as well be said that God has properties. He has not, but only attributes and these are of our own making. Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the space. To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing. I, for one, refuse to subscribe to such a view".
 
 
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #3 on: 29/08/2014 14:23:05 »
  I think that I have read your article clearly, Your article try to proof that there are two version of The General relativity the Einstein version and The modern version.You try to proof that Einstein did not determine the gravity as the space time curvature.
Then you read it wrong. The article only refers to the interpretation of how the term "gravitational field" is defined. Einstein defined it one way and others defined it another way. I know that's what the author means because I'm the author. Anything else is your interpretation. If you claim that I said otherwise then please post the page number and the sentence in which you claim I said it.
« Last Edit: 29/08/2014 14:32:58 by PmbPhy »
 

Offline JohnDuffield

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #4 on: 29/08/2014 14:48:09 »
...Tesla criticize Einstein general relativity  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla he said that " I hold that space cannot be curved..."
There's a delicious irony to that. Have a read of The role of the potentials in electromagnetism by Percy Hammond and see where he says "We conclude that the field describes the curvature that characterizes the electromagnetic interaction".

What Peter says is true. There are some differences between relativity as described by Einstein and relativity as it's taught today. I think it's something of an issue actually. It causes problems.
 

Offline parakorn

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #5 on: 29/08/2014 15:39:49 »
  I think that I have read your article clearly, Your article try to proof that there are two version of The General relativity the Einstein version and The modern version.You try to proof that Einstein did not determine the gravity as the space time curvature.
Then you read it wrong. The article only refers to the interpretation of how the term "gravitational field" is defined. Einstein defined it one way and others defined it another way. I know that's what the author means because I'm the author. Anything else is your interpretation. If you claim that I said otherwise then please post the page number and the sentence in which you claim I said it.
   first page that you wrote that "Einstein identified the existence of gravity with the inertial motion of
accelerating bodies (i.e. bodies in free-fall) whereas contemporary physicists identify
the existence of gravity with space-time curvature (i.e. tidal forces). The
interpretation of gravity as a curvature in space-time is an interpretation Einstein did
not agree with"
    In the fourth page that you wrote Did Einstein actually hold the view that gravity is a
curvature in space-time? At this point let us whet your appetite. No. Einstein
never said nor implied in anyway that gravity is a curvature in space-time. This
apparent disparity is a result of a change of interpretation.
    In page 9 that you wrote In the year following the completion and publication of the general theory
of relativity Einstein published the review article The Foundation of the General
Theory of Relativity in 1916 3. The statement
It will be seen from these reflections that in pursuing the general theory
of relativity we shall be led to a theory of gravitation, since we are able to
“produce” a gravitational field merely by changing the system of coordinates.
identifying gravity with non-inertial systems, wholly reflects Einstein’s
interpretation of gravity, the existence of which depends on the observer’s frame
of reference.
    and in the conclusion in page 22 that you wrote Einstein did not interpret gravity as a curvature of space-time, rather that
space-time curvature is a manifestation of gravity. This is the difference between
EGR and MGR
  But in truth there are many time that Einstein said that gravity is the curvature of space time
 

Offline JohnDuffield

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #6 on: 29/08/2014 16:06:38 »
Quote from: parakorn
But in truth there are many time that Einstein said that gravity is the curvature of space time.
No there isn't. If you beg to differ, give a few reference where he did say that.
 

Offline JP

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #7 on: 29/08/2014 16:32:27 »
Quote from: parakorn
But in truth there are many time that Einstein said that gravity is the curvature of space time.
No there isn't. If you beg to differ, give a few reference where he did say that.

He certainly realized that the mathematics of his theory describing gravitation also describe curvature in space-time
(http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1921/einstein-lecture.pdf). 
 

Offline parakorn

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #8 on: 29/08/2014 16:52:04 »
Quote from: parakorn
But in truth there are many time that Einstein said that gravity is the curvature of space time.
No there isn't. If you beg to differ, give a few reference where he did say that.
for example http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Relativity:_The_Special_and_General_Theory/Part_II [nofollow] section 23-section 27 and section 31-32
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #9 on: 29/08/2014 17:04:22 »
Quote from: parakorn
first page that you wrote that "Einstein identified the existence of gravity with the inertial motion of accelerating bodies (i.e. bodies in free-fall) whereas contemporary physicists identify the existence of gravity with space-time curvature (i.e. tidal forces). The interpretation of gravity as a curvature in space-time is an interpretation Einstein did
not agree with"
All I see in your response is you quoting me. Quoting me is not a rebuttal to what you're quoting. And all of what you quoted is very much true. All one has to do is read Einstein’s paper in which he published GR to see that to be the case.

Quote from: parakorn
In the fourth page that you wrote Did Einstein actually hold the view that gravity is a curvature in space-time? At this point let us whet your appetite. No. Einstein never said nor implied in anyway that gravity is a curvature in space-time.
That's correct. But don't make the mistake of confusing that to say that matter can't curve spacetime.

Quote from: parakorn
This apparent disparity is a result of a change of interpretation.
That’s very much so and I showed you the statement where Einstein said it in a letter to Max Von Laue.
Quote from: parakorn
In page 9 that you wrote In the year following the completion and publication of the general theory of relativity Einstein published the review article The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity in 1916 3. The statement It will be seen from these reflections that in pursuing the general theory of relativity we shall be led to a theory of gravitation, since we are able to “produce” a gravitational field merely by changing the system of coordinates. identifying gravity with non-inertial systems, wholly reflects Einstein’s interpretation of gravity, the existence of which depends on the observer’s frame
of reference.
Again all you're doing is quoting me for not apparent reason. Why this time?

That Einstein said that is easily seen in his paper which is online at http://hem.bredband.net/b153434/Works/Einstein.htm
Quote
This view is made possible for us by the teaching of experience as to the existence of a field of force, namely, the gravitational field, which possesses the remarkable property of imparting the same acceleration to all bodies. The mechanical behavior of bodies relatively to K' is the same as presents itself to experience in the case of systems which we are wont to regard as "stationary" or as "privileged." Therefore, from the physical standpoint, the assumption readily suggests itself that the systems K and K' may both with equal right be looked upon as "stationary" that is to say, they have an equal title as systems of reference for the physical description of phenomena.
It will be seen from these reflexions that in pursuing the general theory of relativity we shall be led to a theory of gravitation, since we are able to "produce" a gravitational field merely by changing the system of co-ordinates. It will also be obvious that the principle of the constancy of the velocity of light in vacuo must be modified, since we easily recognize that the path of a ray of light with respect to K' must in general be curvilinear, if with respect to K light is propagated in a straight line with a definite constant velocity.
If you knew general relativity then you’d know that spacetime curvature cannot be produced by a change in coordinates.

Quote from: parakorn
But in truth there are many time that Einstein said that gravity is the curvature of space time
You're quite wrong. There are absolutely no cases in which he said that. Didn’t you read my paper closely? In fact he actually spoke out against that interpretation in a letter to When Max von Laue stated as I said earlier. Von Laue sent Einstein a book on GR he was working on to be proof read. Einstein wrote back to him with the following protest
Quote
... what characterizes the existence of a gravitational field from the empirical standpoint is the non-vanishing of the components of the affine connection], not the vanishing of the [components of the Riemann tensor]. If one does not think in such intuitive (anschaulich) ways, one cannot grasp why something like curvature should have anything at all to do with gravitation. In any case, no rational person would have hit upon anything otherwise. The key to the understanding of the equality of gravitational mass and inertial mass would have been missing.
That quote is in the paper written by a GR historian and GR expert John Stachel, in

General Relativity and Gravitation Proceedings of the 11th International Conference on General Relativity and Gravitation, (Stockholm,Cambridge University Press, Jul 6-12, 1986), How Einstein Discovered General Relativity: A Historical Tale With Some Contemporary Morals, John J. Stachel

As I said, this is a fact, not a guess. John is a world renowned expert on general relativity and the most knowledgeable Einstein historian in the world. While it was I who wrote the paper, John made sure that my premises and conclusions were correct. There’s nothing wrong with my paper.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #10 on: 29/08/2014 17:08:28 »
Quote from: parakorn
But in truth there are many time that Einstein said that gravity is the curvature of space time.
No there isn't. If you beg to differ, give a few reference where he did say that.
for example http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Relativity:_The_Special_and_General_Theory/Part_II section 23-section 27 and section 31-32
Those sections say no such thing. In you next post please cut and past where you think Einstein said "Gravity is a curvature in spacetime".
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #11 on: 29/08/2014 17:10:46 »
Quote from: parakorn
But in truth there are many time that Einstein said that gravity is the curvature of space time.
No there isn't. If you beg to differ, give a few reference where he did say that.

He certainly realized that the mathematics of his theory describing gravitation also describe curvature in space-time
(http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1921/einstein-lecture.pdf).
Absolutely true. Too many people interpret my paper to mean that Einstein said nothing about curvature. That's extremely frustrating. This newbie is seeing things in http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Relativity:_The_Special_and_General_Theory/Part_II#Section_23_-_Behaviour_of_Clocks_and_Measuring-Rods_on_a_Rotating_Body_of_Reference which aren't even there though!!!!
 

Offline JohnDuffield

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #12 on: 29/08/2014 17:11:21 »
Quote from: JP
He certainly realized that the mathematics of his theory describing gravitation also describe curvature in space-time (http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1921/einstein-lecture.pdf).
There's certainly some non-Euclidean geometry and some curvature in the mix! But when you actually read the various documents, what's missing is curved spacetime. It just isn't there. It isn't in the Nordic document. In fact Einstein talks about unifying electromagnetism and gravity and refers to "space curvature", which relates to what Percy Hammond was saying about electromagnetism.
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #13 on: 29/08/2014 20:09:47 »
Curvature of any sort will only happen when the gravitational radiation is emitted from a curved surface and is a result of the geometry. An enormous flat slab would radiate a generally flat field. The geometry of the field would vary at the corners.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #14 on: 29/08/2014 22:27:42 »
Curvature of any sort will only happen when the gravitational radiation is emitted from a curved surface and is a result of the geometry. An enormous flat slab would radiate a generally flat field. The geometry of the field would vary at the corners.
That's quite incorrect. Gravitational radiation is in no way required for the presence of spacetime curvature. Where did you ever get that idea from?
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #15 on: 30/08/2014 00:38:38 »
Curvature of any sort will only happen when the gravitational radiation is emitted from a curved surface and is a result of the geometry. An enormous flat slab would radiate a generally flat field. The geometry of the field would vary at the corners.
That's quite incorrect. Gravitational radiation is in no way required for the presence of spacetime curvature. Where did you ever get that idea from?

OK then Pete. What is required? This is of particular interest to me.
« Last Edit: 30/08/2014 00:40:17 by jeffreyH »
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #16 on: 30/08/2014 01:18:25 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
OK then Pete. What is required? This is of particular interest to me.
Let's use the Newtonian description since most people are used to that terminology. Mass generates gravitational forces, right? When the distribution of matter is such that the tidal force tensor is non-zero then there are tidal forces present. That means that the gravitational force varies from one place to another. See
 http://home.comcast.net/~peter.m.brown/mech/tidal_force_tensor.htm

NASA describes it here - http://spacemath.gsfc.nasa.gov/blackh/4Page33.pdf
Quote
A tidal force is a difference in the strength of gravity between two points.

Princeton describes it here - https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Tidal_force.html

Wiki describes it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_force

See also - http://burro.astr.cwru.edu/Academics/Astr221/Gravity/tides.html
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #17 on: 30/08/2014 12:16:08 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
OK then Pete. What is required? This is of particular interest to me.
Let's use the Newtonian description since most people are used to that terminology. Mass generates gravitational forces, right? When the distribution of matter is such that the tidal force tensor is non-zero then there are tidal forces present. That means that the gravitational force varies from one place to another. See
 http://home.comcast.net/~peter.m.brown/mech/tidal_force_tensor.htm

NASA describes it here - http://spacemath.gsfc.nasa.gov/blackh/4Page33.pdf
Quote
A tidal force is a difference in the strength of gravity between two points.

Princeton describes it here - https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Tidal_force.html

Wiki describes it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_force

See also - http://burro.astr.cwru.edu/Academics/Astr221/Gravity/tides.html

In order for there to be a tidal force a mass has to radiate force carriers, surely! That's the point isn't it? To get a value for g you need a force acting on a mass.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #18 on: 30/08/2014 12:48:56 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
In order for there to be a tidal force a mass has to radiate force carriers, surely!
Nope. I don't know where you get these ideas from. I don't even know what that means. What does "radiate force carriers" mean and where did you get such an idea from?

Unless you're thinking about quantum field theory where particles interact by exchanging virtual particles? If so then that'd be quantum gravity and there's no such theory as of yet. In any case that has absolutely nothing to do with gravitational radiation.
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #19 on: 30/08/2014 12:57:07 »
 

Offline JohnDuffield

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #20 on: 30/08/2014 13:11:30 »
Those virtual particles are virtual, Jeffrey. They aren't real particles. Hydrogen atoms don't twinkle, magnets don't shine, and there are no gravitons pouring out of a black hole. Have a read of Matt Strassler's article. Note this bit: "The best way to approach this concept, I believe, is to forget you ever saw the word “particle” in the term. A virtual particle is not a particle at all. It refers precisely to a disturbance in a field that is not a particle at all". Virtual particles are "field quanta". It's like you divide the field up into little distorted squares, and say each one is a virtual particle. 
 

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #21 on: 30/08/2014 13:32:15 »
Those virtual particles are virtual, Jeffrey. They aren't real particles. Hydrogen atoms don't twinkle, magnets don't shine, and there are no gravitons pouring out of a black hole. Have a read of Matt Strassler's article. Note this bit: "The best way to approach this concept, I believe, is to forget you ever saw the word “particle” in the term. A virtual particle is not a particle at all. It refers precisely to a disturbance in a field that is not a particle at all". Virtual particles are "field quanta". It's like you divide the field up into little distorted squares, and say each one is a virtual particle.

I went down that avenue originally not was not satisfied with the results. I will read the article though I will have to find something convincing.
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #22 on: 30/08/2014 13:51:20 »
Well that was interesting. The trick is to view the standard model and the fields involved to determine exactly how we can end up with an attractive force. I had in mind 3 disturbances. That's where I went wrong. I can now make a bit more sense of the G2 gas cloud encounter.
« Last Edit: 30/08/2014 13:54:43 by jeffreyH »
 

Offline JohnDuffield

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #23 on: 30/08/2014 14:11:50 »
I'm afraid some of what you read about is just rubbish, Jeffrey. Have a google on virtual evanescent. The reality that underlies virtual photons is the evanescent wave aka near field. Have a look at near and far field on Wikipedia and you can read this: "In the quantum view of electromagnetic interactions, far-field effects are manifestations of real photons, whereas near-field effects are due to a mixture of real and virtual photons". Virtual photons aren't real photons flying back and forth at c. They're just chunks of field going nowhere. In similar fashion (virtual) gravitons aren't real particles flying out of a black hole at c. They're just chunks of field going nowhere. Only people don't know how to use the quantum field theory methodology for gravity.

By the by, have a look at gluons on Wikipedia. See this: "as opposed to virtual ones found in ordinary hadrons". Gluons are virtual particles too.   

Anyway, we're getting off topic with this. Which is that Einstein described gravity in a certain way, but some people nowadays tend to describe it in a way that contradicts Einstein, and it's causing problems. Because if they don't understand gravity properly, they can't quantize it.   
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Does Einstein create the real General relativity ??
« Reply #24 on: 30/08/2014 14:23:46 »
Well quantum gravity is the ultimate goal.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/grav_radiation.html
That's beside the point, Jeff. You claimed that
Quote
Curvature of any sort will only happen when the gravitational radiation is emitted from a curved surface and is a result of the geometry.
which is wrong.
« Last Edit: 30/08/2014 14:40:20 by PmbPhy »
 

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