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Author Topic: Are a Magnetic Force and Gravitional Force one and the same?  (Read 8123 times)

Offline thedoc

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David asked the Naked Scientists:
   
Is a Magnetic Force and Gravitional Force one of the same? I am NOT ASKING what causes these forces, I am asking are the forces of magnetism and gravity the same form of force?

Related Question - What causes a magnetic or gravitational force from a sub-atomic point of view

 Related Question - Would time and space be changed by the force of magnetism?
What do you think?
« Last Edit: 09/09/2014 09:30:02 by _system »


 

Offline JP

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No.  Gravitational force is due to mass (or mass, energy and momentum, depending on how you describe it), but not due directly to charges.  The magnetic force is due to charges in motion, and does not depend directly on their masses. 

On a subatomic scale, the magnetic force is transmitted by the electromagnetic field which is made up of photons, which we have observed and understand well.  The gravitational force is transmitted by a gravitational field which we theorize is transmitted by particles called "gravitons."  But gravity is so weak compared to magnetism that we haven't been able to experimentally detect gravitons yet, so exactly how they work (and if they really exist) is an open question.

Related question: time and space can be affected by intense magnetic fields, but that is because time and space are affected by distributions of energy and the magnetic field carries energy with it.  In other words, if you have a strong magnetic field, it could be a source of gravity, but there would be two forces present: gravity and magnetism.
 

Offline acsinuk

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Photons of electromagnetic energy move through outer space and operate like a balanced pair of balanced+/-charges.  Can it then be assumed that whilst moving through space they will magnetise that space? Or is it the other way round that light can only move through magnetised space?
 

Offline jeffreyH

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In other words, if you have a strong magnetic field, it could be a source of gravity, but there would be two forces present: gravity and magnetism.

Can you elaborate please?
 

Offline evan_au

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Quote
can light only move through magnetised space?

Light can move perfectly well through a vacuum containing no electric, magnetic or gravitational fields.

The photons have their own electric & magnetic fields which travel along with (form?) the particle. The oscillating electric field creates an oscillating magnetic field (which recreates the oscillating electric field) so the whole thing propagates through a vacuum at the speed of light.
 

Offline JP

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In other words, if you have a strong magnetic field, it could be a source of gravity, but there would be two forces present: gravity and magnetism.

Can you elaborate please?

Energy is a source of gravity.  The magnetic field has energy.  Therefore magnetic fields should be able to produce gravitational effects.  As far as I know this is true, but we haven't seen big enough magnetic fields to observe this effect.
 

Offline jeffreyH

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In other words, if you have a strong magnetic field, it could be a source of gravity, but there would be two forces present: gravity and magnetism.

Can you elaborate please?

Energy is a source of gravity.  The magnetic field has energy.  Therefore magnetic fields should be able to produce gravitational effects.  As far as I know this is true, but we haven't seen big enough magnetic fields to observe this effect.

In that case intense magnetic fields around dense objects would contribute to the gravitational field. This would add to the gravitational fields of neutron stars and other dense objects. If a black hole were to self confine its own gravity then the gravitation would only be a function of sources from an accretion disc. This would beg the question of what keeps the accretion disc in place. Negative pressure?
 

Offline jeffreyH

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As magnetic fields must circulate then can we assume that there would be a violation of a physical law if a black hole were to become a sink for magnetic field lines? If those field lines traveled around the black hole the gravity generated could sustain an accretion disk.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: David
   
Is a Magnetic Force and Gravitional Force one of the same?
No. They're quite different. In fact there's hardly anything about them which is alike. The magnetic force can't do work like the gravitational force can and as such the magnetic force can't cause any object's kinetic energy and thus speed to change. Magnetic forces only act on charged objects and the force on a charged object depends on the charge of the object and thus the acceleration of the object will depend on the charge as well as the objects mass.

Quote from: David
I am NOT ASKING what causes these forces, I am asking are the forces of magnetism and gravity the same form of force?
May I ask what led you to ask such a question? If they were the same thing don't you think that physicists would give them the same name? Don't you wonder why only magnetized objects stick to the fridge and not, for example, copper ones? The magnetic only acts on certain kinds of metals, and copper is not one of them.
 
Quote from: David
   
Related Question - What causes a magnetic or gravitational force from a sub-atomic point of view
Nobody knows anything beyond the Lorentz force law which is given by

F = q(E + vxB)

In particle physics forces these forces (i.e. electromagnetic forces) are mediated by virtual photons.

Quote from: David
   
Related Question - Would time and space be changed by the force of magnetism?
Only when the energy density is enough so that the equivalent mass is of the order to make a strong enough gravitational field which has tidal forces which would curve the spacetime its in.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Photons of electromagnetic energy move through outer space and operate like a balanced pair of balanced+/-charges.  Can it then be assumed that whilst moving through space they will magnetise that space?
Only in the sense that there will be a time varying electromagnetic force where the electromagnetic wave passes through.
 

Offline JohnDuffield

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Is a Magnetic Force and Gravitional Force one of the same? I am NOT ASKING what causes these forces, I am asking are the forces of magnetism and gravity the same form of force?
The answer is no. They are however related. See Einstein talking about field theory. Pay special attention to this:

Expanding the Theory
This theory having brought together the metric and gravitation would have been completely satisfactory of the world had only gravitational fields and no electro-magnetic fields. Not it is true that the latter can be included within the general theory of relativity by taking over and appropriately modifying Maxwell's equations of the electro-magnetic field, but they do not then appear like the gravitational fields as structural properties of the space - time continuum, but as logically independent constructions. The two types of field are causally linked in this theory, but still not fused to an identity. It can, however, scarcely be imagined that empty space has conditions or states of two essentially different kinds, and it is natural to suspect that this only appears to be so because the structure of the physical continuum is not completely described by the Riemannian metric.
 

Note how a field is a state of space? OK, now here's the $64,000 dollar question: how many fields has the electron got?       

Related Question - What causes a magnetic or gravitational force from a sub-atomic point of view
It would take me an essay apiece to explain them properly, but in brief: magnetic force is a rotational force that results when two "dynamical Dirac bispinors in frame-dragged space" interact like cyclones and anticyclones. Gravitational force is where light curves because a concentration of energy "conditions" the surrounding space and matter falls down because of the wave nature of matter. 

Would time and space be changed by the force of magnetism?
Not quite. But space is changed when an electromagnetic field is present. You can see a hint of that in this article on gravitomagnetism: "Einstein was right again. There is a space-time vortex around Earth... But if space is twisted". There's a bit of confusion about space and spacetime, but it isn't specially relevant.
 

Offline acsinuk

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"Magnetic force is a rotational force" is a correct statement and the reason stars and planets all rotate is because they are linked together magnetically across space.  Once you accept that the space between stellar objects is magnetised then we can start to work out what the strength of that electro-magnetic 3D force is in terms of G gravity.
CliveS
 

Offline PmbPhy

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"Magnetic force is a rotational force" is a correct statement and the reason stars and planets all rotate is because they are linked together magnetically across space.  Once you accept that the space between stellar objects is magnetised then we can start to work out what the strength of that electro-magnetic 3D force is in terms of G gravity.
CliveS
There is nothing true about this statement. stars are not linked together magnetically across space. The force between them is so insignificant at those distances as to be immeasurable. Also space is not magnetized in any sense of the word. Only matter is magnetized.

Where did you ever get such ideas from? 
 

Offline acsinuk

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But surely the WMAP result which was specifically performed to prove that only gravity was required to stabilise and balance the universe has proved that G alone is insufficient. Cosmologist along with particle physicists then dream up dark repellent energy and dark solar attractive matter to explain the difference.
All nonsense, the stars repel each other electromagnetically with a force of 23.4 times the force of gravity G then immediately the galaxies will balance and the centre magnetic hub will look like a black hole,  No need for dark energy!
 

Offline JohnDuffield

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acsinuk: you're being too hostile here. Think about an electromagnetic field for a moment. It has field energy. You can feel it when you play repulsion with a couple of magnets. What you're feeling is energy in space. I kid ye not. Now, try doing that with the lights off. What can you see? Nothing. Because this energy is dark. Electromagnetic field energy is "dark" energy. It's not quite the same as cosmological dark energy, but your two magnets do move apart. Don't think of it as something totally different. All these things are interconnected.   
 

Offline acsinuk

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Thanks John, that we agree that dark energy is an electromagnetic field.  Now, this force field is electromagnetic so it has no mass or material that can be identified.  The visual and radio evidence at many different wavelengths is that the space is empty which confirms that the repelling force is massless. 
It makes no sense for particle physicists to look for some sort of repellent matter or tensor anti-Graviton particle as the astronomical evidence is that it does not exist.  What you see is what you have got!
So to balance a galaxy we need a dark massless force that will cause celestial bodies to rotate.  There is only one force that can do this and it is electromagnetic. Whether we can measure it or not you can be sure that galaxies are magnetised and that the repelling force is 23.4 times stronger than the one G mass to mass attraction force.  CliveS
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Well that would require a net imbalance in either the positive or negative electromagnetic field. This cannot come from the electron or proton so you are only left with the neutron and this depends upon the distribution of the charges internal to the particle. This is not seen experimentally but it still may be true. However the effect would be so infinitesimally small that it would not be possible to consider this the reason for the expansion of the universe.
 

Offline JohnDuffield

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Thanks John, that we agree that dark energy is an electromagnetic field. Now, this force field is electromagnetic so it has no mass or material that can be identified. The visual and radio evidence at many different wavelengths is that the space is empty which confirms that the repelling force is massless.
It isn't! Space isn't empty, space has its vacuum energy, and this energy has a mass equivalence.

It makes no sense for particle physicists to look for some sort of repellent matter or tensor anti-Graviton particle
Correct. Space isn't made out of particles. A field isn't made out of particles. A field is "a state of space". 

So to balance a galaxy we need a dark massless force that will cause celestial bodies to rotate. There is only one force that can do this and it is electromagnetic. Whether we can measure it or not you can be sure that galaxies are magnetised and that the repelling force is 23.4 times stronger than the one G mass to mass attraction force.
There's another way.
 

Offline alancalverd

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David asked the Naked Scientists:
   
Is a Magnetic Force and Gravitional Force one of the same?
No

Quote
Related Question - What causes a magnetic
unpaired spin

Quote
or gravitational force from a sub-atomic point of view
mass

Quote
Related Question - Would time and space be changed by the force of magnetism?
What do you think?

no
 

Offline ScientificSorcerer

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The universe...  Some never see it for the mystery that it really is.  Even the most logical among us would bigot about it's inner workings instead of working together to figure out the secret behind it's majestic existence.

I ask all who read this not to look at the universe in JUST a logical sense for you see, knowing the secrets of the universe is perhaps the most spiritual knowledge imaginable. What would it mean to you if you salved it's mystery?

What would it mean for the world if someone salved the mystery of the universe?

If such a person was to come forth with the undeniable truth behind the universe then I hope that person is spiritually worthy.

The universe is undoubtedly made up of a mysterious energy which permeates everything, it morphs into various forms. Everything we know of is made of this energy. matter, heat, light, sound, gravity, and everything else in-between.  Everything is literally made of this stuff and nothing more.

What more need be said except for the question, what is this mysterious energy?

and the answer to that question is very simple, "everything" is the various forms of the energy.

so the answer to your question is Yes

gravity and magnetism DO in fact stem from the same force, they are just different forms of the same force (Pure energy).

magnetism, many might say comes from a moving charge like an electron flowing through a wire but what is a charge to begin with? no matter how many equations you go through to try to explain why, I bet you'll eventually find that it's because of the properties of the "energy".

Mass is just energy in a particle. The energy in a particle is doing something which gives rise to gravity but nobody actually knows what it's doing.

Little is known about time and space, asking if magnetism can effect them is beyond the scope of this forum, but people will always give their opinion to questions like these but the reality is nobody really knows.

But I tell you this...  If you know how "the energy" works in the raw, how it morphs from state to state then you'll know how it shapes everything in the universe.
« Last Edit: 15/09/2014 09:14:17 by ScientificSorcerer »
 

Offline alancalverd

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What mystery? It's all there to see, and mostly it behaves predictably. When it doesn't, we alter the equations with which we model it, and everything falls back into place again.
 

Offline acsinuk

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The fundamental energy of the universe is electromagnetic.  This magnoflux can move through magnetised space as light or radio waves.  It can also be captured by a molecule where it vibrates and heats up the magnetic field volume inside the electron enclosure.  Once captured it can no longer move at light speed and is restricted to the speed of the proton and neutron particles.
But where did the original magnoflux energy come from?  We can assume that the total positive and negative energy and charges as in any electrical circuit will all add to zero but how God manage to magnetise the space of nothingness to start it all will always be a mystery.
 

Offline yor_on

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"Space isn't empty, space has its vacuum energy, and this energy has a mass equivalence."

Sort of like it John, remember myself wondering about the mass equivalence of virtual particles :) You know, dark mass, and 'energy' naturally.

Then again, wish I could hold just one virtual particle in my hand :) I think statistics will lead us, and experiments. But what it will end in? What 'theory' we find fitting it all I'm not sure.
 

Offline acsinuk

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Going back to the original question are the magnetic and mass attraction forces similar. Answer is yes in that both have the mass linked to force equivalence.  Larger stars will induce more fluxlines into the black hole.
But, magnetic bipolar force is not only 20 times more powerful but also has a curling motion that spins the stars.
Watched "horizon" last night and it suddenly struck me if a gas cloud gets sucked into a magnetic hub it will be spat out at right angles to the spin of the galaxy along the axis of the magnetic hub.  If we are in line with that axis we will see a brilliant energy source suddenly appear and as we drift out of line it will dim and then disappear , like a quasar or magnetar?
CliveS
 

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