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Author Topic: Major Bombshell : Manifesto For A Post-Materialistic Science :  (Read 186986 times)

Offline Plato

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This is a major bombshell indeed : A real scientific revolution like no other :
newbielink:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-pruett/toward-a-postmaterialistic-science_b_5842730.html?utm_hp_ref=tw [nonactive]

You can read the actual paper here below :

newbielink:http://www.explorejournal.com/article/S1550-8307%2814%2900116-5/abstract [nonactive]

Full Text :

newbielink:http://www.explorejournal.com/article/S1550-8307%2814%2900116-5/fulltext [nonactive]




« Last Edit: 03/10/2014 18:25:35 by Plato »


 

Offline Plato

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Materialism must be kicked out of science indeed  without mercy , regret or hesitation :
newbielink:http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-science [nonactive]
« Last Edit: 03/10/2014 18:37:27 by Plato »
 

Offline David Cooper

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Incompetent. We all recognise that what we see around us may not be the whole story - it could be entirely virtual. However, shoving consciousness somewhere else doesn't add anything to an explanation of it at all. You still end up with something somewhere else which defies explanation in the self same way as it does for materialists.
 

Offline chiralSPO

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In this manifesto, under point 7, they claim:

"Most importantly, [quantum mechanics] explicitly introduces the mind into its basic conceptual structure since it was found that particles being observed and the observer--the physicist and the method used --are linked. According to one interpretation of QM, this phenomenon implies that the consciousness of the observer is vital to the existence of the physical events being observed and the mental events can affect the physical world."

I object to this interpretation. As far as I know there is no experiment that explicitly shows the dependence of the physicist's thoughts. That a physical system was prepared in a particular way and that a measurement or interaction took place is sufficient to produce experimental results testing/showing QM effects. Information does not need to be understood by anyone (anything) to be transferred or manipulated. If I set up an experiment to be performed by an automated program, and the data saved, the results would be the same as if I saw them in real time, tomorrow or a year from now. Would the experiment care if I misunderstood the data?

Note, I am open to ideas that don't conform to strict materialism, but this argument doesn't pass much scrutiny.
 

Offline Plato

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In this manifesto, under point 7, they claim:

"Most importantly, [quantum mechanics] explicitly introduces the mind into its basic conceptual structure since it was found that particles being observed and the observer--the physicist and the method used --are linked. According to one interpretation of QM, this phenomenon implies that the consciousness of the observer is vital to the existence of the physical events being observed and the mental events can affect the physical world."

I object to this interpretation. As far as I know there is no experiment that explicitly shows the dependence of the physicist's thoughts. That a physical system was prepared in a particular way and that a measurement or interaction took place is sufficient to produce experimental results testing/showing QM effects. Information does not need to be understood by anyone (anything) to be transferred or manipulated. If I set up an experiment to be performed by an automated program, and the data saved, the results would be the same as if I saw them in real time, tomorrow or a year from now. Would the experiment care if I misunderstood the data?

Note, I am open to ideas that don't conform to strict materialism, but this argument doesn't pass much scrutiny.

Well, sir :
That argument doesn't pass much scrutiny only if you look at it from the materialist perspective , ironically enough .It all starts making sense ,if one would be willing to look at it from a non-materialist perspective thus .
That's what that manifesto is all about in fact : It all makes no sense ,only from the materialist angle .
 

Offline Ethos_

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Materialism must be kicked out of science indeed  without mercy , regret or hesitation :
http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-science
I dare say that if we follow this illogical logic, none of the material tests using material devices will serve us as experimental proofs. Such nonsense leaves us with nothing to form any conclusions about our supposed reality. As such, leaving us with nothing to trust but our personal imaginations and opening the door to every crackpot preaching about fairies and extraterrestrials. Utter nonsense!!!!!!!!!!
 

Offline Plato

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Incompetent. We all recognise that what we see around us may not be the whole story - it could be entirely virtual. However, shoving consciousness somewhere else doesn't add anything to an explanation of it at all. You still end up with something somewhere else which defies explanation in the self same way as it does for materialists.

Well, sir :
That manifesto referred to many consciousness studies from the non-materialist "Camp" .You should first try to look at the evidence there , instead of a -priori dismissing it out of hand  .
 

Offline Plato

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Materialism must be kicked out of science indeed  without mercy , regret or hesitation :
newbielink:http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-science [nonactive]
I dare say that if we follow this illogical logic, none of the material tests using material devices will serve us as experimental proofs. Such nonsense leaves us with nothing to form any conclusions about our supposed reality. As such, leaving us with nothing to trust but our personal imaginations and opening the door to every crackpot preaching about fairies and extraterrestrials. Utter nonsense!!!!!!!!!!

Well, sir :
If you  carefully read that manifesto, you would notice that it says clearly that the previous scientific advances will not be abandoned of course , needless to say , and that the post-materialistic science admits that reality is made up of both matter and mind : matter-mind in fact .Mind that's irreducible to matter thus .
 

Offline Ethos_

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Materialism must be kicked out of science indeed  without mercy , regret or hesitation :
http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-science
I dare say that if we follow this illogical logic, none of the material tests using material devices will serve us as experimental proofs. Such nonsense leaves us with nothing to form any conclusions about our supposed reality. As such, leaving us with nothing to trust but our personal imaginations and opening the door to every crackpot preaching about fairies and extraterrestrials. Utter nonsense!!!!!!!!!!

Well, sir :
If you  carefully read that manifesto, you would notice that it says clearly that the previous scientific advances will not be abandoned of course , needless to say , and that the post-materialistic science admits that reality is made up of both matter and mind : matter-mind in fact .Mind that's irreducible to matter thus .
I could be mistaken but, you remind me of a long absent member here at TNS. He went by the name of DonQuichotte if I remember correctly? Could I "thus" be right dear sir? :
« Last Edit: 03/10/2014 20:18:29 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline Plato

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Materialism must be kicked out of science indeed  without mercy , regret or hesitation :
newbielink:http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-science [nonactive]
I dare say that if we follow this illogical logic, none of the material tests using material devices will serve us as experimental proofs. Such nonsense leaves us with nothing to form any conclusions about our supposed reality. As such, leaving us with nothing to trust but our personal imaginations and opening the door to every crackpot preaching about fairies and extraterrestrials. Utter nonsense!!!!!!!!!!

Well, sir :
If you  carefully read that manifesto, you would notice that it says clearly that the previous scientific advances will not be abandoned of course , needless to say , and that the post-materialistic science admits that reality is made up of both matter and mind : matter-mind in fact .Mind that's irreducible to matter thus .
I could be mistaken but, you remind me of a long absent member here at TNS. He went by the name of DonQuichotte if I remember correctly? Could I "thus" be right dear sir? :

I don't think so , dear sir .
Anyway , people change all the time , every moment a resurrection .Life gets renewed every moment . I can't  say about myself at least,for example,  that i totally am who i was just a moment ago .But, that's another story thus .
Please , try to read that manifesto carefully and tell me about it .Thanks .
Science will never be the same again after this historic major bombshell , i guess .
 

Offline David Cooper

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Incompetent. We all recognise that what we see around us may not be the whole story - it could be entirely virtual. However, shoving consciousness somewhere else doesn't add anything to an explanation of it at all. You still end up with something somewhere else which defies explanation in the self same way as it does for materialists.

Well, sir :
That manifesto referred to many consciousness studies from the non-materialist "Camp" .You should first try to look at the evidence there , instead of a -priori dismissing it out of hand  .

We have gone over all this quackers stuff before on this forum, so I'm not merely dismissing it out of hand. Tell me how you imagine it gets past the problem of how sentience can make itself known to the information system of the brain. http://www.magicschoolbook.com/consciousness.html. Until you can do that, all you have to offer is a very long string of quacks.
 

Offline Plato

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Incompetent. We all recognise that what we see around us may not be the whole story - it could be entirely virtual. However, shoving consciousness somewhere else doesn't add anything to an explanation of it at all. You still end up with something somewhere else which defies explanation in the self same way as it does for materialists.

Well, sir :
That manifesto referred to many consciousness studies from the non-materialist "Camp" .You should first try to look at the evidence there , instead of a -priori dismissing it out of hand  .

We have gone over all this quackers stuff before on this forum, so I'm not merely dismissing it out of hand. Tell me how you imagine it gets past the problem of how sentience can make itself known to the information system of the brain. newbielink:http://www.magicschoolbook.com/consciousness.html [nonactive]. Until you can do that, all you have to offer is a very long string of quacks.

I am just a messenger , sir .
Read that manifesto carefully and the work of those scientists who signed it .Thanks .

Or just see this :

newbielink:http://opensciences.org/videos/consciousness-studies [nonactive]
I will try to elaborate on that , tomorrow then , i hope .
Thanks, guys , for your interesting replies .
« Last Edit: 03/10/2014 21:26:55 by Plato »
 

Offline alancalverd

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More of a fart than a bombshell.

Quote
Quantum mechanics, however, supersedes Newtonian mechanics and undermines the classical assumption of materialism.

Crap. It underpins Newtonian mechanics.

The reason new ideas are accepted is because they make sense. They only make sense if, when projected to the everyday scale, they predict what we actually see. Hence quantum mechanics allows atoms to be stable and finite, and is thus consistent with the fact that a rock is a rock; and relativistic equations approximate to classical mechanics at low speeds whilst explaining a number of observations that are not consistent with a simpler model of the universe.   

The rest of the article seems to drivel on about consciousness without defining it or examining any aspect of what it does, and is therefore irrelevant to science.
« Last Edit: 03/10/2014 23:07:50 by alancalverd »
 

Offline David Cooper

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I am just a messenger , sir .
Read that manifesto carefully and the work of those scientists who signed it .Thanks .

Here's some reading for you to save everyone else from ploughing this well-ploughed field again:-

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=48746.0

A 70 page thread for you sir! Enjoy!
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Quote
author=alancalverd link=topic=52526.msg441651#msg441651 date=1412373957]
More of a fart than a bombshell.

Don't over-estimate your capacity of judgment .

Some people said  something similar to or worse than what you uttered here above , regarding what revolutionary scientists came up with .

Quote
Quote
Quantum mechanics, however, supersedes Newtonian mechanics and undermines the classical assumption of materialism.

Crap. It underpins Newtonian mechanics.


See below , and read that manifesto to remember the fact that Newton's physics superseded the previous ones , as QM superseded Newtonian physics ...

Quote
The reason new ideas are accepted is because they make sense. They only make sense if, when projected to the everyday scale, they predict what we actually see. Hence quantum mechanics allows atoms to be stable and finite, and is thus consistent with the fact that a rock is a rock; and relativistic equations approximate to classical mechanics at low speeds whilst explaining a number of observations that are not consistent with a simpler model of the universe. 
 

The reason new ideas or new theories are accepted is because they happen to have more explanatory power than the rest : QM clearly clearly has more explanatory power than the approximately correct and fundamentally false classical determinist Newtonian world view .

Furthermore , Quantum theory has been refuting the Newtonian classical or conventional conception of matter as something like billiard balls that are  solid ,indivisible, inderstructible .

Quote
The rest of the article seems to drivel on about consciousness without defining it or examining any aspect of what it does, and is therefore irrelevant to science.

You haven't even looked at the overwhelming evidence that has been supporting some of the non-materialist theories of consciousness .How can you tell then ?
« Last Edit: 04/10/2014 19:09:21 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Quote
author=David Cooper link=topic=52526.msg441674#msg441674 date=1412444602]
I am just a messenger , sir .
Read that manifesto carefully and the work of those scientists who signed it .Thanks .

Here's some reading for you to save everyone else from ploughing this well-ploughed field again:-

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=48746.0

A 70 page thread for you sir! Enjoy!

lol : That link sounds and looks so familiar lol

Mr.David Cooper : consciousness does collapse the wave function without any transfer of energy , so, the conservation of energy law is not violated , not to mention the fact that quantum theory has been showing that the universe is not  causally closed ,as the classical determinist mechanical Newtonian world view made us believe it was .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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 Read that manifesto carefully, guys .
Use your minds .
Materialist brainwash ,conditioning or indoctrination are very hard to undo , i see .
No wonder , most scientists thought/ think that materialism has been based on empirical evidence lol , as that manifesto says .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Take at least a look at the following , with an open mind , otherwise the new science will be leaving you behind , soon enough :


http://opensciences.org/videos/consciousness-studies
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Offline Ethos_

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Human Consciousness And The End of Materialism :

http://harmoniaphilosophica.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/human-consciousness-and-the-end-of-2jszrulazj6wq-58/
Well, well,.......look who's back! Is it Plato or Don.... these days? Doesn't really matter I suppose whether it's Plato or Don...., it's still all crap!!
 

Offline Ethos_

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I could be mistaken but, you remind me of a long absent member here at TNS. He went by the name of DonQuichotte if I remember correctly? Could I "thus" be right dear sir? :
I must say fellow members, did I call that one right or not?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Human Consciousness And The End of Materialism :

http://harmoniaphilosophica.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/human-consciousness-and-the-end-of-2jszrulazj6wq-58/
Well, well,.......look who's back! Is it Plato or Don.... these days? Doesn't really matter I suppose whether it's Plato or Don...., it's still all crap!!

lol

You're not welcoming me back , Ethos ? Nevermind .How are you by the way ? Fine, i hope .
Well, when science proved that earth was not flat , many people said : oh, it's crap lol , to mention just that .
You gotta come up with some serious arguments to disprove those non-materialist scientists , so .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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I could be mistaken but, you remind me of a long absent member here at TNS. He went by the name of DonQuichotte if I remember correctly? Could I "thus" be right dear sir? :
I must say fellow members, did I call that one right or not?

You did indeed , but , i made that a lot easier for you ....deliberately .
 

Offline Ethos_

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You gotta come up with some serious arguments to disprove those non-materialist scientists , so .
Nonsense,...................it's incumbent upon you to prove your case my friend. And I see no proof. It's all drivel.............................Ethos
 

Offline Ethos_

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You're not welcoming me back , Ethos ? Nevermind .How are you by the way ? Fine, i hope .

BTW, welcome back Don......., it's good to hear from you again. While we disagree on this subject, I admire your dedication and persistence. I will therefore give you credit where credit is due but I will not accept your definition for good science.

All that being said, I must confess I've missed our heated debates. So out of respect for your convictions and your dedication to them, I offer you a sincere "Welcome Back".
« Last Edit: 04/10/2014 21:10:11 by Ethos_ »
 

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