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Author Topic: Major Bombshell : Manifesto For A Post-Materialistic Science :  (Read 187733 times)

Offline DonQuichotte

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dlorde :

When i say Max Planck toppled classical Newtonian physics , i mean that he  paved the way for the birth of quantum physics that has more explanatory power than classical physics .The latter that's approximately correct and fundamentally false .

QM that explains all what classical physics explains and accounts for all those anomalies that classical physics could not / cannot account for as well .

So, who says that classical physics don't work .?

Stop telling me stories about NASA , planes ....that rely on classical physics then .Who denied that ?

The whole universe is quantum mechanical in fact , as you know .
« Last Edit: 25/10/2014 17:27:13 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Materialist scientists pretend to have refuted the works of non-materialist scientists , and vice versa = everybody has  refuted everybody = none has been refuted = a paradox . lol

Materialists assume (a materialist belief assumption ) that consciousness is a physical or material process , so, how can it collapse the wave function ? lol

Non-materialist scientists assume that consciousness is non -physical or non-material + non-local , so, how can it not collapse the wave function ...

Since materialism is false and since materialist science is full of fairy tales ...one should not take for granted all what materialist science says as science ...thus .

Better still : materialist science and materialists are the real science and real scientists lol , the rest is thus pseudo-science or pseudo-scientists at best , and bullshit at worse .  lol

« Last Edit: 25/10/2014 18:40:28 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline dlorde

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Many eminent physicists talk about the conscious collapse of the wave function : see Carter's excerpts .
It's an interpretation of what the means in physical terms; a wavefunction in superposition of states appears to collapse to a single state under interaction/measurement/observation. You can intepret this as a real wavefunction collapse or as one observer's view of a bigger picture where the wavefunction continues to evolve in superposition, but encompasses the observer in that superposition. The former has multiple difficulties explaining what 'wavefunction collapse' really means and precisely when it occurs, the latter says there really isn't a collapse, but has a large incredulity factor (because it involves the concept of a multiverse).

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What kindda scientific mess or confusion is this then ? Science sounds like some sort of a religion regarding the interpretation of quantum theory at least  : so many scientific "sectes " lol telling different stories about the same theory and more
The theory is fine, it's the best theory ever devised, and works like a charm. The interpretations are ways to get you head around what's actually happening. Many physicists say 'forget the interpretations, just shut up and calculate'.

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... how can Caroll say with such unscientific confidence that the standard model of quantum field theory rules out the existence of any psi phenomena ...? since the materialist theory of the nature of reality is certainly false .
He explains it in painstaking detail in the lecture. QFT does such a good job of predicting how the world behaves at levels and energies including, and way beyond, the everyday, and its predictions have been so thoroughly tested at everyday levels (and beyond) that it's beyond all reasonable doubt that its model of the everyday is correct; plus, if there were any novel interactions strong enough to be relevant to our everyday world, they would have been detected by tests sensitive enough to detect interactions way below the threshold of everyday molecular biology interactions. Either something interacts or it doesn't. If it does, you can see the results of the interaction; if it doesn't, it isn't relevant.
« Last Edit: 25/10/2014 22:24:47 by dlorde »
 

Offline dlorde

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The whole universe is quantum mechanical in fact , as you know .
So accept what quantum field theory tells you. No unknown fields or forces that can influence your brain. No psi, or paranormal, or supernatural influences. Welcome to the real world.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Yeah, right : Big caliber eminent scientists such as Von Neumann and most founders of quantum physics + many eminent physicists even today say that consciousness does collapse the wave function,


But so far, the only experiment you have quoted clearly shows that it doesn't. Perhaps you have misinterpreted your many eminent scientists? You won't be the first to have done so.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: dlorde
So accept what quantum field theory tells you. No unknown fields or forces that can influence your brain. No psi, or paranormal, or supernatural influences. Welcome to the real world.
Don't be too sure of yourself. Have you ever heard of the Pear Engineering Anomalies Laboratory? If not then see:
http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/

They did research in Human-Machine Anomalies and Remote Perception. This is not a crackpot operation and they did get positive experimental results! This work took place over a period of three decades. See:
http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/theory.html
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Quote from: dlorde
So accept what quantum field theory tells you. No unknown fields or forces that can influence your brain. No psi, or paranormal, or supernatural influences. Welcome to the real world.
Don't be too sure of yourself. Have you ever heard of the Pear Engineering Anomalies Laboratory? If not then see:
http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/

They did research in Human-Machine Anomalies and Remote Perception. This is not a crackpot operation and they did get positive experimental results! This work took place over a period of three decades. See:
http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/theory.html

Thanks , man .I will take a look at that .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=dlorde link=topic=52526.msg443124#msg443124 date=1414271634]
Many eminent physicists talk about the conscious collapse of the wave function : see Carter's excerpts .
It's an interpretation of what the means in physical terms; a wavefunction in superposition of states appears to collapse to a single state under interaction/measurement/observation. You can intepret this as a real wavefunction collapse or as one observer's view of a bigger picture where the wavefunction continues to evolve in superposition, but encompasses the observer in that superposition. The former has multiple difficulties explaining what 'wavefunction collapse' really means and precisely when it occurs, the latter says there really isn't a collapse, but has a large incredulity factor (because it involves the concept of a multiverse).

(The multiverse theory is a clear and major violation of occam's razor : a desperate materialist attempt to ignore the scientific evidence that does not fit into the materialist belief or world view , just like that false materialist hidden variable theory .)

 Well, That's the  interpretation dilemma in science again, like how materialist and non-materialist scientists interpret the same data concerning mind -body relationship differently ,the same goes for the interpretation of quantum theory and the rest .

Why are you then so sure about the materialist interpretation of quantum theory,for example  ?

Since materialists assume so falsely that consciousness is a material process without any causal effects on matter , no wonder that you assume the above so blindly .

Well, go read what those scientists said about that through Carter's excerpts here above ,that cost me so much time to target or select for you guys , fix their display ....

And tell me why  all those scientists were so "deluded " or "biased " as to clearly say that the conscious collapse of the wave function is a physic's fact ?

From Von Neumann school through Wigner and all the founders of quantum physics , passing by modern physicists such Amit Goswami , John Gribbin and the rest .

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What kindda scientific mess or confusion is this then ? Science sounds like some sort of a religion regarding the interpretation of quantum theory at least  : so many scientific "sectes " lol telling different stories about the same theory and more
The theory is fine, it's the best theory ever devised, and works like a charm. The interpretations are ways to get you head around what's actually happening. Many physicists say 'forget the interpretations, just shut up and calculate'.

Quantum theory is the best tested and successful theory ever , yes .
But , i am talking about its interpretation which  has far -reaching philosophical and metaphysical implications : surely that's not nothing : that can help scientists get closer to what the nature of reality might be , scientist .Science is all about trying to find out about the nature of reality  .

How can physicists such as Caroll  then  dare talk about the nature of reality through the standard model of quantum field theory without dealing with that interpretation dilemma of quantum theory, in the first place to begin with ,  that's , in its turn, all about the approximation regarding the nature of reality : a paradox : can't you see that ? Come on .

Physicists cannot ignore that for ever , many of them have been doing just that .


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... how can Caroll say with such unscientific confidence that the standard model of quantum field theory rules out the existence of any psi phenomena ...? since the materialist theory of the nature of reality is certainly false .
He explains it in painstaking detail in the lecture. QFT does such a good job of predicting how the world behaves at levels and energies including, and way beyond, the everyday, and its predictions have been so thoroughly tested at everyday levels (and beyond) that it's beyond all reasonable doubt that its model of the everyday is correct; plus, if there were any novel interactions strong enough to be relevant to our everyday world, they would have been detected by tests sensitive enough to detect interactions way below the threshold of everyday molecular biology interactions. Either something interacts or it doesn't. If it does, you can see the results of the interaction; if it doesn't, it isn't relevant.

I watched the video .

What makes you think consciousness can be detected directly via empirical evidence through material devices ?

Consciousness has a non-mechanical causation , and is non-physical non -material + non-local : see Carter's excerpts here above , once again .

Caroll is just yet another materialist scientist who assumes so falsely that the nature of reality is exclusively material or physical , including consciousness .

A key component or a key "building block " of the universe such as consciousness , and a primary one at that , that is , cannot be overlooked , ignored or taken for granted as insiginificant or irrelevant , just because it cannot be detected direclty via material devices, or because materialist scientists such as Caroll assume so falsely that consciousness is a material process ....an insignificant irrelevant one at that , that is : a paradox = without consciousness, no science would have been possible  .

Von Neumann , for example , to mention just that one  thus , did detect the central role of consciousness in physics ,indirectly thus ,  through rigorous maths .
What can you say about just that then ?
Nothing , i presume, since ,as a materialist scientist yourself, you cannot but assume so faslely that consciousness is just a materials process without any causal effects on matter , let alone that you would even consider the fact that consciousness is a non-physical non-material and non-local process that acts through non-mechanical causation ...

Come on , get out of your false illusory materialist key hole box .

Read what all those scientists said in all those Carter's excerpts here above .
« Last Edit: 26/10/2014 18:04:55 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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The whole universe is quantum mechanical in fact , as you know .
So accept what quantum field theory tells you. No unknown fields or forces that can influence your brain. No psi, or paranormal, or supernatural influences. Welcome to the real world.

Materialist Caroll started from a false premise that can lead him only to a false conclusion : the nature of reality is exclusively material : see above .

Since materialism is false , then any materialist theory regarding the nature of reality is also false , including that standard model of quantum field theory : One doesn't  have to be a brilliant physicist like Caroll to see that , on the contrary thus .One doesn't have to know anything at all about QM to know that , period .



 

Offline DonQuichotte

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[quote =alancalverd link=topic=52526.msg443137#msg443137 date=1414279469]

Yeah, right : Big caliber eminent scientists such as Von Neumann and most founders of quantum physics + many eminent physicists even today say that consciousness does collapse the wave function,


But so far, the only experiment you have quoted clearly shows that it doesn't.


That experiment shows exactly the opposite of what you said here above ,come on : are you blind or what ? .
I have even provided another  link regarding the same double slit experiment on which a materialist scientist commented ,while concluding that the one who would be able to explain what happens in that experiment should deserve the nobel prize .
All modern physics is resumed or contained in that famous double slit experiment , in a nutshell .
He was honest and objective at least , since by assuming , as  a materialist , that consciousness is a material process like the measuring device is , he could not see how the behavior of those wave/particle electrons can be explained ,depending on the observation or not of that behavior .

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Perhaps you have misinterpreted your many eminent scientists? You won't be the first to have done so.

Don't insult  my intelligence , please . Even anyone with even a lower than average intelligence can clearly understand what those scientists were saying in Carter's excerpts here above .

One does not have to be a genius to understand all that , not even remotely close thus .One does not have to know anything at all for that matter about QM to understand that .

That's why i was just asking you , guys , to tell me why do you think those scientists were saying what they were saying in total contrast with what materialist scientists say on the same subject regarding the interpretation of quantum theory at least ....Come on .

In fact :
The very fact that quantum theory has many interpretations , the very fact that a-priori held beliefs or world views ,expectations do shape consciousness , and the very fact that science itself is just a human social activity , and to some extent a cultural one as well (See how the Eurocentric materialism has been taken for granted as science or as the scientific world view , without question , even by yourself as a scientist , for so long now and counting .) , all those above mentioned facts are evidence enough for the fact that our "reality " is observer -dependent : consciousness does collapse the wave function : the observed and observer are inseparable , but that does not mean that the ultimate or objective nature of reality out there is not out there .It is , we just can't approach it via science at least , let alone via reason , logic , ....simply because whenever we would look at or observe the objective reality out there , we instantly turn it into the illusory physical reality .

Got that , scientist ?
« Last Edit: 26/10/2014 17:55:43 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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What's wrong with you , people ?
The famous and simple double slit experiment with electrons, for example, clearly shows , beyond the shadow of a doubt , that the consciousness of the observer does indeed collapse the wave function: the observer and observed are inseparable  , for every idiot to see , even for anyone who has even no prior knowledge whatsoever about QM , and you tell me : that's just an interpretation?  . You gotta be kidding me .

A-priori held beliefs or world views that shape consciousness can do that to people indeed lol . Amazing .

A-priori held beliefs and expectations do shape the consciousness of scientists as well , and shape the way they interpret and design experiments , data .... : that's a cristal-clear fact that has been shown over and over again by that famous and simple double slit experiment : our beliefs and expectations shape our consciousness through our perception : the observer and observed are inseparable .

See this famous psychology test , regarding how human perception gets easily mislead , becomes selective ...  : you materialists have been missing the gorilla in the room , so to speak, in relation to that double slit experiment at least :


« Last Edit: 26/10/2014 17:52:04 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline alancalverd

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What's wrong with you , people ?
The famous and simple double slit experiment with electrons, for example, clearly shows , beyond the shadow of a doubt , that the consciousness of the observer does indeed collapse the wave function: the observer and observed are inseparable 


I have never met anyone who has observed an electron, nor an electron that was aware it was being observed by a conscious being. Perhaps you could elucidate? 

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our beliefs and expectations shape our consciousness through our perception : the observer and observed are inseparable .

Now there's a problem. The expectation of a rational man is that the electron, being stable and indivisible, must pass through one or other slit. Unfortunately the beliefs and expectations of a rational man, or even an idiot, are confounded by reality. And that is how science works. 
« Last Edit: 26/10/2014 18:05:15 by alancalverd »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=alancalverd link=topic=52526.msg443169#msg443169 date=1414346495]
What's wrong with you , people ?
The famous and simple double slit experiment with electrons, for example, clearly shows , beyond the shadow of a doubt , that the consciousness of the observer does indeed collapse the wave function: the observer and observed are inseparable 


I have never met anyone who has observed an electron, nor an electron that was aware it was being observed by a conscious being. Perhaps you could elucidate? 

Don't be silly : That was an amusing Dr.Quantum version of the famous double slit experiment that  has been conducted over and over again .The Dr.Quantum version just uses  metaphors like the electron knows it's being observed ...just amusing metaphors,  and it clearly shows through the measuring device and inference patterns ....,that the wave/particle duality of electrons depends on them being observed or not (Consciousness is the only non-material process involved in that experiment , so, consciousness does collapse the wave function, as Von Neumann showed through rigorous maths,albeit reluctantly thus . )

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our beliefs and expectations shape our consciousness through our perception : the observer and observed are inseparable .

Now there's a problem. The expectation of a rational man is that the electron, being stable and indivisible, must pass through one or other slit. Unfortunately the beliefs and expectations of a rational man, or even an idiot, are confounded by reality. And that is how science works.


I think you should look at that experiment again,without a-priori expectations or beliefs  .Don't forget that the weird cloudy quantum world appears absurd to us on our large every-day scale . It doesn't behave like our every-day experiences .

Why we don't see people accomplishing leaps lol, jumps , wave /particle duality in the big world ? Planck's constant is too small for this big world, i guess ,among other reasons i have been exploring .

The whole universe is in fact quantum mechanical, as Von Neumann used to say thus .
The wave/particle dual nature of particles depends on whethere or not they are observed .
 

Offline alancalverd

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Don't forget that the weird cloudy quantum world appears absurd to us on our large every-day scale . It doesn't behave like our every-day experiences .

Speak for yourself. I'm a radiation physicist and my everyday world is dominated by quantum effects. They pay my wages, except on large engineering projects where newtonian mechanics is easier.

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The whole universe is in fact quantum mechanical, as Von Neumann used to say thus .

True

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The wave/particle dual nature of particles depends on whethere or not they are observed .

Bollocks. There is no "duality", just two different mathematical models of reality.
« Last Edit: 27/10/2014 12:26:01 by alancalverd »
 

Offline dlorde

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Don't be too sure of yourself. Have you ever heard of the Pear Engineering Anomalies Laboratory? If not then see:
http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/

They did research in Human-Machine Anomalies and Remote Perception. This is not a crackpot operation and they did get positive experimental results! This work took place over a period of three decades. See:
http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/theory.html
Yes, Jahn and colleagues were pretty serious about it. However, their results were not unequivocal, being only marginally significant over huge numbers of trials, which makes it very difficult to distinguish real effects from unintentional low-level systematic bias; for example, of the kind that double or triple blinding attempts to address. I don't think they properly blinded their studies.  Their project has been criticised on experimental design, methodology, and analysis grounds, and several attempts to replicate them by various groups (including the PEAR team itself!) have failed.

Check out PEAR on wikipedia and this article on The Skeptic's Dictionary.

However, if you still feel they had something rea and interesting (I wouldn't blame you - I followed PEAR's original results with fascination), you'll need to find the hole in the QFT argument put forward by Carroll; i.e. if you accept QFT as even just a reasonable approximation to the physics of the everyday world (and it's shown itself to be far more than that), there are no novel human-scale interactions. To say otherwise is like saying Newtonian mechanics is an excellent everyday approximation, but there are consistent everyday cases where they don't apply. 

The only counter I can see is to find a major hole in QFT, which seems extremely unlikely, or unequivocal, replicable evidence of such a hole (i.e. high quality, replicable evidence of psi phenomena - preferably with some hypothesised mechanism) - which seems equally unlikely.
« Last Edit: 26/10/2014 23:51:00 by dlorde »
 

Offline dlorde

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...The multiverse theory is a clear and major violation of occam's razor...
That's a misinterpretation of the 'Many Worlds' interpretation; it doesn't really involve the creation of new material universes, if that's what you're thinking. What it suggests is that the Schrodinger wavefunction never collapses, it just continues to evolve. We already know that superpositions occur, e.g. an electron being at two positions at once (that's a simplification), and Many Worlds asks us to accept that this happens to everything, including us as observers. We become part of the evolving wavefunction involving a particular measurement once its influence has reached us, and we become part of that superposition, seeing multiple outcomes at once; but since the outcomes are non-interfering (they can't interact), the same applies to our multiple perceptions of them, etc. They're all part of the single same evolving wavefunction of the universe (Hawking & Hartle have done some serious work on the universal wavefunction), but to the different paths or branches or wavelets of that wavefunction they're effectively separate universes. Or something of the sort  ;)  In this respect, it's actually the simplest interpretation, because it requires nothing more than taking the wavefunction as a literal description of the universe.

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Why are you then so sure about the materialist interpretation of quantum theory,for example  ?
The interpretation doesn't really matter, I just happen to prefer Many Worlds because it doesn't have any of the major problems of other interpretations. What really matters is the theory itself and what it tells us, and its results are clear.

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What makes you think consciousness can be detected directly via empirical evidence through material devices?
Because it has been. Consciousness is a process and has been shown to have clear and characteristic signatures in neural activity patterns that have been used in the real world to discover consciousness in patients with Locked-in Syndrome (i.e. in Persistent Vegetative State but conscious). It's also been established that in some comatose PVS patients if you trigger those activity patterns with transcranial magnetic stimulation, they regain temporary consciousness.

In other words, there is unequivocal empirical evidence for it, not least in some very happy real world outcomes  [^]

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Consciousness has a non-mechanical causation , and is non-physical non -material + non-local : see Carter's excerpts here above , once again .

Caroll is just yet another materialist scientist who assumes so falsely that the nature of reality is exclusively material or physical , including consciousness .
“The moving Finger of science discovers; and, having discovered,
Moves on: nor all thy bluster nor assertion
Shall lure it back to cancel half a line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.” - apologies to Omar Khayyam  ;D

Sorry Don, your bluster and bombast is entirely inconsequential. No amount of unsupported assertion counts as useful evidence.
 

Offline dlorde

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Materialist Caroll started from a false premise that can lead him only to a false conclusion : the nature of reality is exclusively material : see above .
Er, no. He started from the idea that, with the discovery of the Higgs particle [long predicted by the Standard Model (quantum field theory) and the last major unfilled hole in that theory], the already extremely accurate Standard Model was confirmed to be complete within its bounds of applicability, and those bounds easily encompass human interaction scales. The Standard Model, and its empirical confirmation within its bounds, was all he needed.

If there is a non-material (whatever that means) aspect to the universe, it doesn't interact at human scales, so it's simply not relevant to us.
« Last Edit: 27/10/2014 00:02:56 by dlorde »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Cheryl :

 You're gonna like the following :
Our dlorde here is gonna be delighted by this as well , since he thinks that the whole universe is quantum mechanical , in the non -Von Neumannian sense :
Von Neumann that demonstrated mathematically that the central or key role of the non-physical consciousness in physics has a non-mechanical causation though :
Not to mention the fact that the experiments conducted by  Schmidt and others had proved that Von Neumann , Wigner and others were right : consciousness does collapse the wave function : See Carter's excerpts on the subject here above :   


You’re powered by quantum mechanics. No, really…

For years biologists have been wary of applying the strange world of quantum mechanics, where particles can be in two places at once or connected over huge distances, to their own field. But it can help to explain some amazing natural phenomena we take for granted.

According to quantum biology, the European robin has a 'sixth sense' in the form of a protein in its eye sensitive to the orientation of the Earth's magnetic field, allowing it to 'see' which way to migrate.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/oct/26/youre-powered-by-quantum-mechanics-biology
« Last Edit: 27/10/2014 16:45:11 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Cheryl , dlorde , alancalverd :

What do you have to say about this other scientific bombshell ? :


Quote from: dlorde
So accept what quantum field theory tells you. No unknown fields or forces that can influence your brain. No psi, or paranormal, or supernatural influences. Welcome to the real world.
Don't be too sure of yourself. Have you ever heard of the Pear Engineering Anomalies Laboratory? If not then see:
http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/

They did research in Human-Machine Anomalies and Remote Perception. This is not a crackpot operation and they did get positive experimental results! This work took place over a period of three decades. See:
http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/theory.html
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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dlorde :

Your beloved and cherished standard model of quantum field theory is pulverized by the following :


Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research.
Scientific Study of Consciousness-Related Physical Phenomena.
Implications and Applications :


http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/implications.html


See the experiments and results there above .Enjoy .It will be devastating to you , but , well , science is not here to please anyone for that matter .
« Last Edit: 27/10/2014 17:27:10 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Will be back after a while ...See above ...Thanks ...

I can't handle my excitement regarding the above lol
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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PmbPhy :

Thanks a lot  , appreciate indeed .You have no idea ...

I have downloaded all what there is to download there : a lots of PDF and more :

http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/publications.html

Wow...

I will have to be absent from this forum for a while to try to read and study all that .

This is dynamite ....an understatement thus .

dlorde :

I hate to tell you : "I told you so " lol, Didin't i ?

Psi phenomena , remote viewing and the rest of the "paranormal " are real and normal  ...Consciousness is a key component or "building block " of the universe , and a primary one at that , that is , and acts through  non-mechanical causation regarding matter brain body and regarding the rest of the illusory physical reality ...

Carter , Von Neumann, Wigner and all those eminent scientists on whose work he based his consclusions + many other  scientists as well were /are right , after all : See Carter's excerpts : this above mentioned research is in line with its content , relatively speaking .

Intent , beliefs and expectations, desires , wishes ... do affect the interpretation of scientific data , the design of experiments and their outcome and much more ...Wow ...The observer and the observed are inseparable thus . Think about all the major and unprecedented implications of all that .The subjective cannot be separated from the "objective" , even in science itself .See the subjective science concept in that research ...

Science will never be the same again .Think about the spiritual philosophical ethical and other major implications of that research at all levels of human activity .You have no idea ....

David Cooper :

You will find there what you were looking for .That will be rocking your false mechanical world view .


Cheryl, alancalverd ,Ethos :

"Don't cry for me Argentina " ...  lol

Take a look at that research : mind-blowing : an understatement .

Best wishes to you all .Cheers.
« Last Edit: 27/10/2014 18:43:24 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Will be back after a while ...See above ...Thanks ...

I can't handle my excitement regarding the above lol

I mentioned this a few posts back, but maybe you didn't notice.

http://skepdic.com/pear.html

Attempts to replicate Schmidt's experiments do not appear to have been very successful.
The effects, if not anomalies, or not connected to a lack of true randomness in the random number generators, could be interesting from a strictly psi point of view, and if you want to justify the need for more research, I wouldn't object to that at all, but I don't think it causes the whole "materialist house of cards" to come tumbling down for the following reasons:

The PEARS experiment stops right at the point most psi research does - proof by process of elimination. There is no way that we can think of this person could have access to that information, so it must be..... esp. There is no reason we can think of for why the computers wouldn't generate perfectly random numbers, so it must be....... telekinesis.

Every theory starts with a simple observation, the attempt to observe or measure it under controlled or known conditions. The next phase is usually manipulating variables to see what happens. At that point the scientist says, okay, we still don't know what "X" is, but it always occurs when "Y" is present, or never occurs if "Z" happens, or is enhanced by "B" and "C" or "B and "A". You begin to compile a list of descriptive traits and attributes, and a model is devised to make predictions in future experiments. If your predictions are all wrong, it's back to the drawing board.

But psi investigations never seem to progress through these stages. There's never any further experiment or observation that provides greater detail or insight into the possible mechanism. It just stops.

If anyone really wants to convince me that somebody's information was via esp, or the machine didn't generate a random number because of telekinesis, they have to provide a way to advance to that next level. 


Don't forget, too, that originally Don was looking for an immaterial force to explain all of consciousness. So it's hard to see the PEARS effect as a reliable and consistent mechanism through which consciousness communicates all of its ideas and objectives to the brain for every mental activity.  They are describing a force that only influences matter effectively - rarely, if at all, - its like suggesting a a postal service that only effectively delivers one letter out of thousands, and we don't even know how the letter gets there.   
« Last Edit: 27/10/2014 19:10:16 by cheryl j »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Cheryl, dlorde , alancalverd :

My apologies for not being able to reply to your above displayed posts .I will have to be absent from this forum for a while to read and study all what i have downloaded from that above mentioned research concerning consciousness studies .

I am too excited and fascinated by that right now,so, see ya all in a few days , hopefully .

Best wishes to you all . Thanks .Cheers .
 

Offline cheryl j

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Intent , beliefs and expectations, desires , wishes ... do affect the interpretation of scientific data , the design of experiments and their outcome and much more ...Wow ...The observer and the observed are inseparable thus . Think about all the major and unprecedented implications of all that .The subjective cannot be separated from the "objective" , even in science itself .See the subjective science concept in that research ...


Don't start confusing or conflating subjectivity because of limited information, incorrect information, or bias, with indeterminacy. If my husband is at a friend's watching hockey when I think he is out shopping for a present for me, I am just simply wrong. He is not in a superpositioned state until I find out what has occurred, and  I cannot collapse a wave form and cause one or the other to have happened. What you're referring to is just magical thinking.
 

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