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Author Topic: Major Bombshell : Manifesto For A Post-Materialistic Science :  (Read 187648 times)

Offline DonQuichotte

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You're not welcoming me back , Ethos ? Nevermind .How are you by the way ? Fine, i hope .

BTW, welcome back Don......., it's good to hear from you again.

Likewise , man , thanks .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Sir Karl Popper's Science As  Falsification :

 All our knowledge is hypothetical , inluding the scientific one thus , as Karl Popper taught us .
Science itself is not even about the truth , whatever the latter might be indeed .
Watch this Popper's short video about the nature of science , the nature of knowledge or epistemology ... : mind -blowing : a real eye-opener :

You will see the falsehood of materialism reflected on its mirror :
« Last Edit: 04/10/2014 21:13:47 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Hi Don. How have you been? What have you been up to since January? I have all sorts of great books to recommend to you!
 

Offline Bored chemist

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OK, so I had a quick look at the "full text" cited in the OP.
The second paragraph says
" Many scientists believe a similar transition is currently required, because the materialistic focus that has dominated science in the modern era cannot account for an ever-increasing body of empirical findings in the domain of consciousness and spirituality"
Before we go any further someone needs to demonstrate that really are "many" scientists who believe that.

They will also need to demonstrate that there is "an ever-increasing body of empirical findings in the domain of consciousness and spirituality".
As far as I am aware there are precisely zero scientific findings in those fields.
We still don't know what consciousness is and "spirituality" is not a subject open to scientific study (except, perhaps as a subset of psychology- why do people believe stuff for which there's no evidence?)


So the second paragraph of this "manifesto"  is manifestly bogus.
This isn't a bombshell, it's not even a fart; it's just hype.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Before we go any further someone needs to demonstrate that really are "many" scientists who believe that.

They will also need to demonstrate that there is "an ever-increasing body of empirical findings in the domain of consciousness and spirituality".
As far as I am aware there are precisely zero scientific findings in those fields.
We still don't know what consciousness is and "spirituality" is not a subject open to scientific study (except, perhaps as a subset of psychology- why do people believe stuff for which there's no evidence?)


So the second paragraph of this "manifesto"  is manifestly bogus.
This isn't a bombshell, it's not even a fart; it's just hype.
I agree with your assessment 100% BC, and especially with the observation that; Consciousness and spirituality are difficult if not impossible to define scientifically. Also, I think Don...... needs to supply us with a list of well established scientists that believe this model. I'll bet the list won't be very long indeed.








 

Offline alancalverd

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You haven't even looked at the overwhelming evidence that has been supporting some of the non-materialist theories of consciousness .How can you tell then ?


Just tell me what it is and what it does, and maybe I'll take an interest in a theory of how it does it.
 

Offline David Cooper

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Mr.David Cooper : consciousness does collapse the wave function without any transfer of energy , so, the conservation of energy law is not violated , not to mention the fact that quantum theory has been showing that the universe is not  causally closed ,as the classical determinist mechanical Newtonian world view made us believe it was .

You make it sound as if you're responding to something I said, but I've never discussed conservation of energy anywhere. As for the universe being or not being causally closed, the closest I've come to discussing that is in the distant past when discussing how a remote consciousness outside of the universe would have to interact mechanistically with the content of the universe in order to have any causal input, and that may well happen - we will find out some day when we can see all the detail of what goes on in the brain, but it's out of reach for now. The big problem for you is that there has to be a mechanical coupling between the remote consciousness and the mechanical brain, and that renders the entire process mechanical with part of it merely being outside the universe instead of inside it, which isn't much of a solution to the problem of understanding how sentience can interface with an information system. Everyone gets completely stuck at that point and no amount of voodoo has made this any easier - all it does is add obfuscation and enable people to claim that the explanation is in the added, magical mess, but that's a non-explanation because it completely ignores the crucial interface problem.

Out of interest, are we supposed to believe that you've been lurking and watching this forum all this time without posting to it, or that you're a friend of the OP and were brought back here by him? (That's assuming you aren't the OP, of course.)
« Last Edit: 05/10/2014 17:06:49 by David Cooper »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Hi Don. How have you been? What have you been up to since January? I have all sorts of great books to recommend to you!

Hi, lady :
Nice "talking" to you again this way , thank you . How are you doing ? Fine , i hope .
Well, what can i say ? I have been through many great experiences , challenges , read so many mind-blowing books on the subject , done so many things....in such relatively short notice  .I don't know from where to start in fact ?
I can recommend great books to you too , and much more ,from consciousness studies to neuroscience , through cognitive psychology , quantum physics ....all the way to meditation, mindfulness and much more .Tell me , please , about those recommended books  of yours . Thanks .
It feels good to come back to this attractive site , and "talk " to such amazing people such as yourselves  . Cheers .
« Last Edit: 05/10/2014 17:45:20 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Quote
author=Bored chemist link=topic=52526.msg441733#msg441733 date=1412509118]
OK, so I had a quick look at the "full text" cited in the OP.
The second paragraph says
" Many scientists believe a similar transition is currently required, because the materialistic focus that has dominated science in the modern era cannot account for an ever-increasing body of empirical findings in the domain of consciousness and spirituality"
Before we go any further someone needs to demonstrate that really are "many" scientists who believe that.

Oh, yes , man : You have no idea , not even remotely close thus , needless to add thus : there is an increasing little army of scientists , philosophers ...who are firmly convinced of the urgent need of making science get rid of the materialist outdated dogmatic belief system that's still sutck within the classical determinist mechanical Newtonian world view , in order for science to progress beyond materialism  , as there has been an overwhelming body of evidence supporting that view of those scientists , philsophers ...
Just take a look at the other links on this thread's opening's article then ....for starters  ....like this one :

http://opensciences.org/videos/consciousness-studies

Quote
They will also need to demonstrate that there is "an ever-increasing body of empirical findings in the domain of consciousness and spirituality".
As far as I am aware there are precisely zero scientific findings in those fields.

Check out those links on this thread , don't be lazy .

Check out the publications , videos and more from the link below , to mention just this one : Your ignorance on the subject is no argument, on the contrary  :

http://opensciences.org/videos



Quote
We still don't know what consciousness is and "spirituality" is not a subject open to scientific study (except, perhaps as a subset of psychology- why do people believe stuff for which there's no evidence?)

We still don't know nothing about neither the orign nor nature of consciousness indeed , but , we do know now that consciousness is non-local and non-physical and more .

Spirituality is a "matter " of consciousness and world views ,so , if consciousness can be studied scientifically ,to some extent at least , why not spirituality ?

Cognitive psychology, for example , has been delivering some revolutionary findings concerning human behavior, consciousness and more , and it relies mainly on the non-materialist interpretations of the recent scientific  discoveries at the level of neuroscience + on quantum physics where consciousness plays a central role ...Cognitive psychology that does work (I have been applying it to myself and to my surroundings with relative amazing success ) and is consistent with both quantum physics and neuroscience thus .

Quote
So the second paragraph of this "manifesto"  is manifestly bogus.

Can you elaborate on that , please ? That's no answer , let alone an argument ,you know .

Quote
This isn't a bombshell, it's not even a fart; it's just hype.

Can you elaborate on that , please ? That's no way of addressing the subject matter at hand , let alone that it is a scientific way to do that .

Oh, man : that's a major nuclear lol bombshell , a  major and unprecedented  scientific revolution like no other , you have no idea .

Ignorance is bliss indeed ...



« Last Edit: 05/10/2014 18:22:40 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Related Issue : Freedom Expelled From Science By The Modern Exclusive Materialist Mainstream Inquisition , and How Darwinism Is More of An Ideology Than A Scientific Theory , And Much More :

Scientists, journalists and others who do dare to challenge the materialist world view or ideology  in science have been persecuted ,excluded as parias or heretics ,  their reputations and careers destroyed or ruined and much more, while science is all about free inquiry  :


How Darwinism is more of an ideology than a scientific theory , how there is absolutely no scientific evidence whasoever for the so-called macro-evolution for which the so-called unguided , blind and random natural selection cannot account , how the natural selection cannot account for DNA information or life information ,and much more ...

 

Offline Bored chemist

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Quote
author=Bored chemist link=topic=52526.msg441733#msg441733 date=1412509118]
OK, so I had a quick look at the "full text" cited in the OP.
The second paragraph says
" Many scientists believe a similar transition is currently required, because the materialistic focus that has dominated science in the modern era cannot account for an ever-increasing body of empirical findings in the domain of consciousness and spirituality"
Before we go any further someone needs to demonstrate that really are "many" scientists who believe that.

Oh, yes , man : You have no idea , not even remotely close thus , needless to add thus : there is an increasing little army of scientists , philosophers ...who are firmly convinced of the urgent need of making science get rid of the materialist outdated dogmatic belief system that's still sutck within the classical determinist mechanical Newtonian world view , in order for science to progress beyond materialism  , as there has been an overwhelming body of evidence supporting that view of those scientists , philsophers ...
Just take a look at the other links on this thread's opening's article then ....for starters  ....like this one :

http://opensciences.org/videos/consciousness-studies

Quote
They will also need to demonstrate that there is "an ever-increasing body of empirical findings in the domain of consciousness and spirituality".
As far as I am aware there are precisely zero scientific findings in those fields.

Check out those links on this thread , don't be lazy .

Check out the publications , videos and more from the link below , to mention just this one : Your ignorance on the subject is no argument, on the contrary  :

http://opensciences.org/videos



Quote
We still don't know what consciousness is and "spirituality" is not a subject open to scientific study (except, perhaps as a subset of psychology- why do people believe stuff for which there's no evidence?)

We still don't know nothing about neither the orign nor nature of consciousness indeed , but , we do know now that consciousness is non-local and non-physical and more .

Spirituality is a "matter " of consciousness and world views ,so , if consciousness can be studied scientifically ,to some extent at least , why not spirituality ?

Cognitive psychology, for example , has been delivering some revolutionary findings concerning human behavior, consciousness and more , and it relies mainly on the non-materialist interpretations of the recent scientific  discoveries at the level of neuroscience + on quantum physics where consciousness plays a central role ...Cognitive psychology that does work (I have been applying it to myself and to my surroundings with relative amazing success ) and is consistent with both quantum physics and neuroscience thus .

Quote
So the second paragraph of this "manifesto"  is manifestly bogus.

Can you elaborate on that , please ? That's no answer , let alone an argument ,you know .

Quote
This isn't a bombshell, it's not even a fart; it's just hype.

Can you elaborate on that , please ? That's no way of addressing the subject matter at hand , let alone that it is a scientific way to do that .

Oh, man : that's a major nuclear lol bombshell , a  major and unprecedented  scientific revolution like no other , you have no idea .

Ignorance is bliss indeed ...





You are going to have to do better than pointing me to a web page that tells me about
"Telephone Telepathy with the Nolan Sisters"
as science.
In the mean time
http://xkcd.com/285/
re.
"there is an increasing little army of scientists , philosophers ...who are firmly convinced of the urgent need ..."
and
"we do know now that consciousness is non-local and non-physical and more ."


Also, I'm happy to elaborate on my earlier assertions.


First I should clear something up, when I said "the second part of the manifesto is manifestly bogus" it wasn't intended as an argument.
it's plainly a summary of what I had said before.
So, pointing out that it's not a valid argument is a strawman attack.
If you can't do better than logical fallacy to support your ideas, perhaps you should keep them to yourself.
Para 2 is bogus because it has no evidential basis , yet it represents itself as a statement of fact.

This isn't a bombshell because it isn't based in reality.
Even a fart really stinks, and, as such, has more impact in the world.

It's just hype- stuff like "Oh, man : that's a major nuclear lol bombshell"; "[/size] [/size]You have no idea , not even remotely close" and "[/size]there is an increasing little army[/size] "
[/size]
« Last Edit: 05/10/2014 18:56:26 by Bored chemist »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=David Cooper link=topic=52526.msg441742#msg441742 date=1412525094]
Mr.David Cooper : consciousness does collapse the wave function without any transfer of energy , so, the conservation of energy law is not violated , not to mention the fact that quantum theory has been showing that the universe is not  causally closed ,as the classical determinist mechanical Newtonian world view made us believe it was .

You make it sound as if you're responding to something I said, but I've never discussed conservation of energy anywhere. As for the universe being or not being causally closed, the closest I've come to discussing that is in the distant past when discussing how a remote consciousness outside of the universe would have to interact mechanistically with the content of the universe in order to have any causal input, and that may well happen - we will find out some day when we can see all the detail of what goes on in the brain, but it's out of reach for now. The big problem for you is that there has to be a mechanical coupling between the remote consciousness and the mechanical brain, and that renders the entire process mechanical with part of it merely being outside the universe instead of inside it, which isn't much of a solution to the problem of understanding how sentience can interface with an information system. Everyone gets completely stuck at that point and no amount of voodoo has made this any easier - all it does is add obfuscation and enable people to claim that the explanation is in the added, magical mess, but that's a non-explanation because it completely ignores the crucial interface problem.


For starters : consciousness is neither in the brain nor is it brain activity (That's just a  materialist myth ) , so, neuroscience will never be able to explain consciousness , also because the physical brain is just a medium for consciousness, both ways , as a receiver and as a "generator " :

http://harmoniaphilosophica.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/human-consciousness-and-the-end-of-2jszrulazj6wq-58/

So, scientists have been "looking" for consciousness in the wrong place (The brain ) , whereas it is placeless , timeless , non-local thus and non-physical + primordial .

Quantum physics , one particular interpretation of quantum theory at least , that of Von Neumann school and others , and that of most quantum theory founders , has been showing that out-of-space-and-time consciousness has a downward causation on "matter" , at the quantum level , since quantum theory has been showing that the universe is NOT causally closed as the classical determinist mechanical Newtonian world view made us all believe it was ,  without any transfer of energy ....So, there is an upward and downward causation : How consciousness does the latter  ? : See this , even though i am no fan of idealist monism :



Furthermore, the very fact that there are many interpretations of quantum theory , and the very fact that science itself is just a human social activity , and to some extent just a CULTURAL one also (See how the Eurocenric materialist world view has been equated with science , for relatively so long now and counting ) are evidence enough for the fact that our "reality " is observer-DEPENDENT , psycho-physical = consciousness of the observer cannot be separated from the observed "physical reality " , but , that does not mean that the objective or ultimate reality out there is not out there .It is , we just can't reach it through science at least , simply because whenever we look at it or observe it , we turn it into the illusory physical reality . Not to mention the fact that physicists have been talking about  the field the existence of which they can only prove mathematically , not otherwise .The field from which consciousness "chooses " to actualize the particular wave-like eventualities , possibilities , probabilities...from it .


So, you have to abandon the classical outdated and superseded determinist mechanical Newtonian world view , in order to make room for the above, instead of behaving as if quantum theory never existed  .

Quote
Out of interest, are we supposed to believe that you've been lurking and watching this forum all this time without posting to it, or that you're a friend of the OP and were brought back here by him? (That's assuming you aren't the OP, of course.)

 I have never looked back when i left this forum , to be honest . I went back to it for a couple of days afterwards , then , i moved on to explore other horizons and fields , just to come back again to share with you all what i have been stumbling upon so far ,and it is a lot = an understatement .

Who's this OP then by the way ?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Important Note :

Guys : I am here ,as just a messenger , to refer you to the work of the increasing number of all those non-materialist scientists on the subject , that's all .

All you have to do is check out their work , and figure that out for yourselves , either way, or not  .It's entirely up to you then indeed .

No doubt in my mind whatsoever that science will be leaving materialism behind and will be dispelling all that materialist dogmatic belief system at the heart of current science .The latter that's all about dispelling dogmas , falsehood ......It's inevitable .Just a matter of time thus .

It's up to you all to either join the new science or be left behind , because none can stop the progress of science , not even materialists .

So, I am NOT here to "defend " or talk about the work of those non-materialist scientists thus ,also because it would cost me too much time and energy i cannot afford .

Thanks , appreciate indeed .Cheers .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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This is time and energy consuming : I should be paid for this lol .
This is way too much for one person to do too , a person that has also other more important duties and other to attend to .
Don't be lazy , guys : I am just a mesenger : check out those provided sources . Make some effort , instead of resorting to silly remarks such as "Oh, this is crap, fart , hype ..." .

Now the following , then i am gone for today  : I have got better things to do , you know :

Is The Universe Just An Elaborate Hologram ? :

I am neither a  fan of the holographic universe notion , nor that i agree with the monistic idealist view of the world , or with the metaphysical conclusions of the narrator at the end of these  5-part holographic universe workshop series , BUT , the science part in them  is relatively SOLID , to some extent at least .Enjoy :


« Last Edit: 05/10/2014 19:38:20 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline David Cooper

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For starters : consciousness is neither in the brain nor is it brain activity (That's just a  materialist myth ) , so, neuroscience will never be able to explain consciousness , also because the physical brain is just a medium for consciousness, both ways , as a receiver and as a "generator " :

It doesn't matter whether consciousness is in the brain or not. What matters is that it has to interface with the brain and have a causal involvement in what the brain does, one which also allows the mechanical information system of the brain to access the consciousness side of things in order for the physical animal to speak of consciousness. It is the interfacing that is problematic, not the idea of consciousness itself. It doesn't matter where consciousness resides - all that matters is the big problem which is how it interfaces with the material. A million texts and videos evangelising voodoo which fail to address that problem are a complete irrelevance.

Quote
I have never looked back when i left this forum , to be honest . I went back to it for a couple of days afterwards , then , i moved on to explore other horizons and fields , just to come back again to share with you all what i have been stumbling upon so far ,and it is a lot = an understatement .

So it's just a coincidence that you happened to look in here a day after this subject came up?
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Important Note :

Guys : I am here ,as just a messenger , to refer you to the work of the increasing number of all those non-materialist scientists on the subject , that's all .


Please do.
I haven't seen any science yet.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=David Cooper link=topic=52526.msg441763#msg441763 date=1412537567]
For starters : consciousness is neither in the brain nor is it brain activity (That's just a  materialist myth ) , so, neuroscience will never be able to explain consciousness , also because the physical brain is just a medium for consciousness, both ways , as a receiver and as a "generator " :

It doesn't matter whether consciousness is in the brain or not. What matters is that it has to interface with the brain and have a causal involvement in what the brain does, one which also allows the mechanical information system of the brain to access the consciousness side of things in order for the physical animal to speak of consciousness. It is the interfacing that is problematic, not the idea of consciousness itself. It doesn't matter where consciousness resides - all that matters is the big problem which is how it interfaces with the material. A million texts and videos evangelising voodoo which fail to address that problem are a complete irrelevance.

Dave, buddy :
I am gonna be quick , all my replies were , due to my tight time-frame .May apologies for any inevitable errors thus .
I think that quantum physics can answer your legetimate above displayed concerns : There is no interface between mind and "matter " :
This simple interpretation of quantum theory does answer your questions :


Von Neumann , for example, to mention just that genius , saw no solution to the measurement problem in quantum physics but to conclude , albeit reluctatntly thus , through rigorous maths , that there must be a process outside of the laws of physics that collapses the wave function .The only plausible candidate is : consciousness of the observer thus .

"Matter " or rather particle's duality : wave/particle explains that , in the sense that consciousness collapses the wave function to actualize the particular wave-like eventualities , possibilities , probabilities ...

So, "matter " exist only when observed .

Quote
Quote
I have never looked back when i left this forum , to be honest . I went back to it for a couple of days afterwards , then , i moved on to explore other horizons and fields , just to come back again to share with you all what i have been stumbling upon so far ,and it is a lot = an understatement .

So it's just a coincidence that you happened to look in here a day after this subject came up?

I am also Plato lol .

Get the hell out of your cave , Dave lol :

Plato was right after all : Our "physical reality " is an illusion :

Watch Plato's cave allegory : here below :



« Last Edit: 05/10/2014 21:05:49 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Is The Universe Just An Elaborate Hologram ?


Hologram of what?

Quote
How Darwinism Is More of An Ideology Than A Scientific Theory

Only to those who don't understand science.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Important Note :

Guys : I am here ,as just a messenger , to refer you to the work of the increasing number of all those non-materialist scientists on the subject , that's all .


Please do.
I haven't seen any science yet.

Please do what ? I said i was  just referring you all to the work of all those increasing numbers of non-materialist scientists ...

Before you can pretend to talk about science , sir , you have to know what science IS , and what science is NOT , to know the nature of science thus .

Since the majority of scientists, and many other people ,  have been assuming that materialism has been supported by empirical evidence , or that science and materialism are one and the same thing , then, they do not know what science IS :

Watch this mind-blowing short video on the subject :

Sir Karl Popper's Science as falsification :


All knowledge is hypothetical, once again, including the scientific one , so, even science itself is NOT about the truth , whatever the latter might be indeed :

You will see the faslehood of materialism reflected on the mirror of that video so to speak, ,if you are smart enough though , since materialism seems to be corroborated , confirmed and verified by almost everything ...=That's a weakness , a vice , not a strength .

Materialism is thus hardly falsifiable , but nevertheless false , since all world views or beliefs are all unscientific = unfalsifiable , per definition, but, they are NOT all necessarily false , as materialism certainly IS .

Ciao.
 

Offline David Cooper

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Collapsing wave functions doesn't help in the slightest. If there is no interface between mind and matter, brains cannot know of consciousness and mouths cannot speak of it.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Allow me to inform those of the membership here about Don........ if you haven't dealt with him before.

1. He'll first require us to prove his model wrong while not offering proper scientific evidence himself.

2. He will copy and past reams of material in his effort to recruit new believers without offering credible evidence.

3. And, no matter how much and how often he is asked to provide empirical evidence, he will continue to demand we prove him wrong first.

A few of us have already been thru this debate with him and I suggest that any further attempt to create any proper understanding of the scientific method within him is a useless and fruitless effort.
 

Offline RD

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Allow me to inform those of the membership here about Don........
A few of us have already been thru this debate with him and I suggest that any further attempt to create any proper understanding of the scientific method within him is a useless and fruitless effort.
+1
 

Offline cheryl j

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.

So, "matter " exist only when observed .


By whom?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Quote
author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg441779#msg441779 date=1412556010]
.

So, "matter " exist only when observed .

By whom?


By ...Cheryl lol . by the observer of course .



That's the interpretation of quantum theory that was shared by Von Neumann school , by Pauli , Planck and by most quantum theory founders ...

The bottom line here is that materialism that was built upon the classical determinist mechanical Newtonian world view has been superseded by quantum theory , and must thus be kicked out of science .


For example :

How can materialism explain the following ? ever :

-Consciousness

-The placebo/nocebo effects

- Psychosomatic phenomena in general

-Self-directed neuro-plasticity

- PSI phenomena

-Telepathy

-Remote viewing

- Near death experiences

- The effects of meditation , mindfulness...

- The fact that brain or meditation  training can even alter the normally NOT under our voluntary control vital biological functions via biofeedback .

- The fact that our thoughts and actions can alter our neurophysiology , biology , and even make certain genes switch on or off

- The fact that   our thoughts can boost our immune system ...

- Non-locality or entanglment in qantum physics where particles can infulence each other instantly , even from huge distances ...

To mention just those ....for the time being at least .
« Last Edit: 06/10/2014 17:11:03 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Collapsing wave functions doesn't help in the slightest. If there is no interface between mind and matter, brains cannot know of consciousness and mouths cannot speak of it.

That particular interpretation of quantum theory shows, once again, that what we call matter and mind are INSEPARABLE (There is in fact no separate matter and separate mind ) , so, our "reality " is observer-dependent = psycho-physical , which means that matter and mind are interconnected and inseparable + are 1 .

There is no radical separation between matter and mind thus = no mind-body problem .

We can't thus speak of separate matter and separate mind , as we should abandon the materialist assumption that the mind has no causal effects on matter + that the observed "objecttive reality " can be separated from the consciousness of the observer .

That means also that consciousness intervenes actively in the so-called physical reality , also by altering it and more via downward causation , and vice versa .

Even at the "material level " , there are both upward and downward causations: complex structures have downward causations regarding their  simpler or  sub-structures and vice versa .

 

The Naked Scientists Forum


 

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