The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Major Bombshell : Manifesto For A Post-Materialistic Science :  (Read 187732 times)

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
alancalverd :

As a quantum physicist yourself : can you replicate Schmidt's experiments Carter was talking about in one of his displayed excerpts here above ? or just some  experiments of PEAR ?

dlorde :   Can you do the latter at least ?

Seriously .Thanks .
 

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1441
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
You can't just dismiss what PEAR did and found out , just through saying that they made some errors here and there...
Who's dismissing them? - I already said what a service they've been to improving experimental methodology  ;)

Sadly, sometimes the 'errors here and there' invalidate your results. When you set out to find some very small effect (you know it must be small because previous results have been equivocal), it's easy to fall prey to a number of biases, chiefly expectation bias. This involves the temptation to emphasise 'positive' results as successes and demphasise 'negative' results as failures (something must have been wrong), and to interpret runs in random data as significant, etc. This is the same bias that makes you want to ignore the PEAR errors and the failed replications because it looked like they got the results you wanted the first time. That's poor science, and why good studies use proper controls, double or triple blinding, and don't make a fuss until they've been replicated [8D]

If you look at the history of psi research, you'll see consistent trends in the results - the more meticulous the design, methodology, controls,  blinding, and analysis, the less positive results are obtained. Over time, the relative numbers of positive results have dropped as experimental techniques and understanding of data analysis improved. The closer and more carefully you look, the less there is anything to see but random distribution [8]

Quote
Everytime we talk about this or that , you , guys , always say : oh , it was refuted , or it was bullshit , or there was something wrong with the experiments or their interpretations , there was fraud , bias , confirmation bias , wishful thinking ...Come on .
You can't blame us for their mistakes  ::)
 

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1441
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
... can you replicate ... some  experiments of PEAR ?

dlorde :   Can you do the latter at least ?
It's been tried - about four times at least. There was nothing to see.
 

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1441
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
dlorde :

Multiverse theory, for example,  is in fact not  only a clear , major and grotesque violation of Occam's razor , but is also ...untestable , unfalsifiable , unverifiable....just a fantasy , a subjective fabrication , an easthetic subjective matter of taste ...
LOL! Nice one  [:o)]
 

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1441
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Don't you realise the fact , dlorde , that you have just replaced the appearance of design in nature by yet another form of design ? , a highly implausible one at that , that is : that of the almighty lol unguided blind random gradual , step by step, highly unlikely , mathematically impossible , lottery lol of the mysterious( Like that mysterious invisible hand of the market lol )  so-called natural selection through random mutations ...(Even James A.Shapiro and others have already refuted that neo-Darwinian genetic determinism .) ...

May God bless the invisible mysterious magical hand of the evolution-god lol   that works through mysterious ways lol = materialist physics-metaphysics lol
Just call it 'Evolution by Natural Selection'.

Don, your posts have started to become less rational and more childishly sarcastic.  Please get a grip, and don't let them degenerate into the pointless abuse and name-calling they did in other threads.
 

Offline cheryl j

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1460
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • View Profile

Once again : the observer and the observed are inseparable : the subjective and objective are inseparable : the subjective interferes with the objective : or as Von Neumann used to say : the measurement paradox in QM takes place in the mind , so , we take the respresentations of the mind in that regard for the physical reality in QM , for example .

Take a closer look at the work and results of PEAR .

For example , even at the macro level : have you ever been so immersed in your creative work, or other life experiences , art ....to the extent that you "lost " yourself in that environment ?


What???? You pull examples from ordinary experience to illustrate a scientific concept, and the examples are not at all causally related or relevant, only superficially similar. The fact that someone who is focused on an interesting activity pays less attention to other environmental stimuli does not prove anything about quantum mechanics or the observer effect or that consciousness is immaterial. It no more demonstrates that than my saying "Time flies while you're having fun" proves Special Relativity.

Quote
When we do or feel, experience things through  our whole beings , we become inseparately one with our environment . Only when we think , try to analyze things , we get the illusion or impression , or perception that we are separate from our environment .
We are always immersed in our inner and outer environments , while exchanging information, energy , matter with our environments , consciously or sub-consciously .

Sometimes , we are not aware of that , so, we have the illusion that we are separate beings or separate individuals from our environment .

The whole universe is in fact interconnected = 1, whether we are aware of that fact or not  : this is no new age bullshit .

Even when you are working on your pc, or walking out your dog , you are interacting with them and with the rest of your environment at that time and place and beyond  , influencing them , and vice versa , by exchanging information with them, consciously or subcosnciously .

Only when you think, analyze things ...you get the impression or illusion that you are separate or independent from your environment in some way .

Oh, absolutely we are connected and part of the environment, and exchange information, and transform energy, and obtain nutrients, and build things, - all through known physical processes, which for some reason you feel are inadequate. I can "affect things with my mind" however it requires other stuff like talking to people, moving parts of my body, manipulating objects, writing a book, etc.
« Last Edit: 29/10/2014 14:28:30 by cheryl j »
 

Offline cheryl j

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1460
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • View Profile
I would like to add, though, that connections and interactions with the environment is something overlooked in discussions of consciousness and the experience of "being." There is a tendency to view the brain as an autonomous, isolated, machine. I sometimes wonder what would happen to a disembodied brain/mind completely disconnected from all sensory input, how long it would continue to think thoughts, ask itself questions, or replay memories on its own, or if conscious experience would slowly fade, even with a sufficient energy source.

Antonio Damasio's two books, Self Comes to Mind and The Feeling of What Happens: Body and Emotion in the Making of Consciousness, emphasize the importance of the body, sensation, emotion, and the environment in the experience of consciousness. Of all the books I've read so far about consciousness, his approach seems the most promising to me.

This link summarizes his work and views, if anyone is interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Damasio

« Last Edit: 29/10/2014 14:26:43 by cheryl j »
 

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1441
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
... I sometimes wonder what would happen to a disembodied brain/mind completely disconnected from all sensory input, how long it would continue to think thoughts, ask itself questions, or replay memories on its own, or if conscious experience would slowly fade, even with a sufficient energy source.
In external sensory deprivation (e.g. body temp flotation tanks), hallucinations occur, presumably as neural system 'noise' is the only apparent input. But these systems only isolate external senses, all the internal ones remain as normal, so in the sense you're referring to, it's only partial sensory deprivation. I suspect that with full sensory deprivation (no input to the brain at all) brain activity would fairly quickly become chaotic, with no stable sense of identity or self, leading to complete dissociation. I doubt whether any meaningful consciousness would persist for long. I wouldn't want to be the first to find out!
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4719
  • Thanked: 155 times
  • life is too short to drink instant coffee
    • View Profile
alancalverd :

As a quantum physicist yourself : can you replicate Schmidt's experiments Carter was talking about in one of his displayed excerpts here above ? or just some  experiments of PEAR ?



Sorry, mate, far too busy using simple quantum physics to heal the sick.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Quote
author=dlorde link=topic=52526.msg443302#msg443302 date=1414537830]
You can't just dismiss what PEAR did and found out , just through saying that they made some errors here and there...
Who's dismissing them? - I already said what a service they've been to improving experimental methodology  ;)

Yeah , great extended experimental methodology PEAR has been developing and using indeed .
I have been fascinated and impressed by that : awesome .
No wonder , simply because the very nature of  their research makes that extended methodology so necessary, since the universe is not impersonal , but personal : the subjective and the objective are inseparable : there is no independent -observer : PEAR's task in that regard was / is unprecedented and courageous , visionary ....not to mention extremely difficult  ,since the subjective part of their work cannot be ruled out either , logically, even though materialist science has been pretending to be able to exclude the subjective from science through applying strict analythical rigorous rational empiricism  .
PEAR's  core premise is that even science itself has been having both subjective as well as objective intrinsic elements , since science is just a human social activity thus,and since the mind is inseparable from matter ... .
The huge data they have been gathering was / is also impressive , to say the least : i have great respect for their hard work,integrity , patience , rigor, humility  ...wow .

Well, the very nature of that  research is reason enough for mainstream science to reject the findings of PEAR .The latter that was aware of that fact and rightly so : PEAR findings were /are rejected by mainstream scientific journals and community . No surprises there .
Physics' journals ,for example say : sorry, we don't do psychology , just physics , not realising the fact that our reality is psycho-physical: the subjective and the objective are inseparable , even in science : the observer is not independent from the observed : what we take for granted as the physical reality , even and mainly at the quantum level, is partly subjective : a mind's representation of reality .
That's why PEAR has been saying that science needs to expand its epistemology and methodology ....not to mention its vocabulary .

The latter reminds me of Rumi's following quote by the way :

" Speak a new language ,so the world will be a new world "


Quote
Sadly, sometimes the 'errors here and there' invalidate your results. When you set out to find some very small effect (you know it must be small because previous results have been equivocal), it's easy to fall prey to a number of biases, chiefly expectation bias. This involves the temptation to emphasise 'positive' results as successes and demphasise 'negative' results as failures (something must have been wrong), and to interpret runs in random data as significant, etc. This is the same bias that makes you want to ignore the PEAR errors and the failed replications because it looked like they got the results you wanted the first time. That's poor science, and why good studies use proper controls, double or triple blinding, and don't make a fuss until they've been replicated [8

I can't tell yet what errors PEAR might or might not have made , since i am just still in the middle of reading and studying their work .
The very nature of their research , once again , cannot but have subjective elements in it also , since the subjective and the objective are inseparable , even at the level of science ,so,as PEAR say and rightly so  .

At the other hand , i have been impressed by their scientific rigor , integrity , the sense of detail , slef-critique, humility ,patience  ....while acknowledging the fact that the very nature of their research concerning the central role of consciousness in establishing the physical reality tend to resist any scientific rigorous approach , replication,conceptualization , models  ...since consciousness and its "interactions " with matter are  so elusive .But, PEAR had nevertheless developed serious scientific models regarding consciousness ...



Quote
If you look at the history of psi research, you'll see consistent trends in the results - the more meticulous the design, methodology, controls,  blinding, and analysis, the less positive results are obtained. Over time, the relative numbers of positive results have dropped as experimental techniques and understanding of data analysis improved. The closer and more carefully you look, the less there is anything to see but random distribution [8]

PEAR itself acknowledged the messy history of psi research where even fraud was not excluded sometimes .So, PEAR has been trying to avoid all that in their ersearch concerning psi phenomena ...

At the other hand , i am not really interested in psi phenomena . PEAR is not all about just that either . I am more intersted in their research concerning the active central role of consciousness in shaping the physical reality .PEAR relied mainly on QM to prove that .

Quote
Quote
Everytime we talk about this or that , you , guys , always say : oh , it was refuted , or it was bullshit , or there was something wrong with the experiments or their interpretations , there was fraud , bias , confirmation bias , wishful thinking ...Come on .
You can't blame us for their mistakes  ::)

What i meant is that mainstream science skeptics resort almost always to those tactics by discrediting their opponents , regardless of how much amount of evidence they might or might no deliver : that's a clear pattern now : everything that would not fit into the materialist "scientific world view " gets treated that way .
« Last Edit: 29/10/2014 18:51:31 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
... I sometimes wonder what would happen to a disembodied brain/mind completely disconnected from all sensory input, how long it would continue to think thoughts, ask itself questions, or replay memories on its own, or if conscious experience would slowly fade, even with a sufficient energy source.
In external sensory deprivation (e.g. body temp flotation tanks), hallucinations occur, presumably as neural system 'noise' is the only apparent input. But these systems only isolate external senses, all the internal ones remain as normal, so in the sense you're referring to, it's only partial sensory deprivation. I suspect that with full sensory deprivation (no input to the brain at all) brain activity would fairly quickly become chaotic, with no stable sense of identity or self, leading to complete dissociation. I doubt whether any meaningful consciousness would persist for long. I wouldn't want to be the first to find out!

The mind just expresses itself through its medium the brain, both ways : the mind interacts with its outer environment , the brain included , via both inserting in and extracting information from it .

So, if the mind gets deprived of that information , it does not mean the mind gets altered or that it disappears : it just gets blocked , since the brain acts a bit like a filter , a kindda valva for the mind through which the latter has to express itself , both ways .
That limitig capacity of the brain explains why certain drugs can expand consciousness or reduce it , and that if certain areas of the brain are damaged , then certain aspects of consciousness seem  to be either reduced , or gone ...

When you will die , your consciousness will be liberated from your limiting brain and body , and then , it will be able to express itself fully , making you awake through higher and full levels of consciousness .

Let's feel free to talk about the following,for a change , since QM , or just one particular interpretation of it , has been opening its wide doors to some forms of spirituality or mysticism through its philosophical and metaphysical , and maybe theological and teleological , implications  :

Know yourself and you will get in touch somehow with the ultimate nature of reality that's both within and without , through knowledge , self-knowledge , experience , discipline ....through enlightenment thus .

Knowledge alone will not get you there , since knowledge , including the scientific one thus is both subjective and objective .
 Experience, or self-experience ,  is fundamental in achieving that : informed trained disciplined enlightenment .

You are just asleep in life thus , as most people are , death will wake us all up, soon enough , but , certain mystics or sufis try to wake up here and now ,before death , by trying to reach enlightenment .

They wanna get in touch with the ultimate nature of reality out there beyond space and time which is also within .

They try to get in touch with the ultimate nature of reality within thus  here and now , through experienced informed trained enlightenment via their whole being, not just via their minds  or just via acquiring empirical knowledge of the outer world .(Materialist science , for example deals only with the lowest level of reality , the illusory one : the physical reality .)
They try to reach beyond -thought enlightenment ,since thought is both subjective and objective .
They try to die before death (It takes less than death to "kill " a human being indeed ) by getting rid of their false subjective ego ,and by trying to reach higher levels of consciousness which correspond to higher levels of reality ,in order  to be united with the One Who's both within and without .

Our suffering in life comes from our separation from Home.That's why we long to return Home .  The latter  is both within and without , both here and now and beyond space and time .
The objective divine thus resides within each and every one of us ,and we can try to get in touch with that ultimate nature of reality within (which is also without , beyond space and time thus ) by trying to know the self , by getting rid of the subjective false ego ....

You may say that the self is an illusion : that's just a matter of opinion or rather a matter of degree of enlightenment .

Or as a famous Sufi once said :

" Live in this world as if you had never set foot here , and in the next as if you had never ...left it " .



« Last Edit: 29/10/2014 19:57:49 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Don't you realise the fact , dlorde , that you have just replaced the appearance of design in nature by yet another form of design ? , a highly implausible one at that , that is : that of the almighty lol unguided blind random gradual , step by step, highly unlikely , mathematically impossible , lottery lol of the mysterious( Like that mysterious invisible hand of the market lol )  so-called natural selection through random mutations ...(Even James A.Shapiro and others have already refuted that neo-Darwinian genetic determinism .) ...

May God bless the invisible mysterious magical hand of the evolution-god lol   that works through mysterious ways lol = materialist physics-metaphysics lol
Just call it 'Evolution by Natural Selection'.

Don, your posts have started to become less rational and more childishly sarcastic.  Please get a grip, and don't let them degenerate into the pointless abuse and name-calling they did in other threads.

I was just trying to spice up this discussion through introducing some form of amusing humour , that's all, dlorde .
 

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1441
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
When you will die , your consciousness will be liberated from your limiting brain and body , and then , it will be able to express itself fully , making you awake through higher and full levels of consciousness .
<snipped for brevity>

This is a science forum. Mysticism and/or religion forums are available elsewhere.
 

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1441
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
Don, your posts have started to become less rational and more childishly sarcastic.  Please get a grip, and don't let them degenerate into the pointless abuse and name-calling they did in other threads.

I was just trying to spice up this discussion through introducing some form of amusing humour , that's all, dlorde .
OK; if that's what passes for humour in your neck of the woods, colour me serious.
 

Offline cheryl j

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1460
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • View Profile


The mind just expresses itself through its medium the brain, both ways : the mind interacts with its outer environment , the brain included , via both inserting in and extracting information from it .

So, if the mind gets deprived of that information , it does not mean the mind gets altered or that it disappears : it just gets blocked , since the brain acts a bit like a filter , a kindda valva for the mind through which the latter has to express itself , both ways .
That limitig capacity of the brain explains why certain drugs can expand consciousness or reduce it , and that if certain areas of the brain are damaged , then certain aspects of consciousness seem  to be either reduced , or gone ...

When you will die , your consciousness will be liberated from your limiting brain and body , and then , it will be able to express itself fully , making you awake through higher and full levels of consciousness .


You don't find it odd that damaging the brain appears to limit or alter consciousness, but completely destroying the brain restores or liberates it? And you know this true because.......? And a brain is necessary for receiving and processing information and expressing itself before death but not after?






[/quote]
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
When you will die , your consciousness will be liberated from your limiting brain and body , and then , it will be able to express itself fully , making you awake through higher and full levels of consciousness .
<snipped for brevity>

This is a science forum. Mysticism and/or religion forums are available elsewhere.

I know , i know , dlorde .

I was just trying to introduce a personal falvor in this impersonal discussion and impersonal materialist science , since the universe is in fact personal, not impersonal as materialist science wanna makes us believe it is : the subjective and objective are inseparable in science and elsewhere ,as the observed and the observer are inseparable : there is no such a thing as the independent -observer thus .

QM has been revealing , or just one particular interpretation of it at least on which PEAR relied and developed its research , the central or key role of consciousness in shaping the physical reality ,so .

So , our reality is both subjective and objective : even the physical reality in physics is both subjective and objective ,so.

That's what i meant, through metaphors ... .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Don, your posts have started to become less rational and more childishly sarcastic.  Please get a grip, and don't let them degenerate into the pointless abuse and name-calling they did in other threads.

I was just trying to spice up this discussion through introducing some form of amusing humour , that's all, dlorde .
OK; if that's what passes for humour in your neck of the woods, colour me serious.

That's a matter of taste then , dlorde .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Quote
author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg443350#msg443350 date=1414613383]


The mind just expresses itself through its medium the brain, both ways : the mind interacts with its outer environment , the brain included , via both inserting in and extracting information from it .

So, if the mind gets deprived of that information , it does not mean the mind gets altered or that it disappears : it just gets blocked , since the brain acts a bit like a filter , a kindda valva for the mind through which the latter has to express itself , both ways .
That limitig capacity of the brain explains why certain drugs can expand consciousness or reduce it , and that if certain areas of the brain are damaged , then certain aspects of consciousness seem  to be either reduced , or gone ...

When you will die , your consciousness will be liberated from your limiting brain and body , and then , it will be able to express itself fully , making you awake through higher and full levels of consciousness .


You don't find it odd that damaging the brain appears to limit or alter consciousness, but completely destroying the brain restores or liberates it? And you know this true because.......? And a brain is necessary for receiving and processing information and expressing itself before death but not after?

Well, Cheryl : mind and body or brain are inseparable ,in this life at least , so , the mind has to express itself through the brain as its medium, both ways : The brain 's limiting capacity regarding the scope of consciousness is no evidence for the materialist production theory : why do you think that certain drugs like LSD , MDMA ,cannabis, marijuana ...seem to "expand " consciousness by acting on the neurophysiology ?

I don't either take drugs nor drink though.

When the brain is damaged , that does not mean that consciousness gets altered , reduced or that it disappears : it is still there , it just gets blocked since its brain channels are damaged or disconnected .

It's like when a tv set or a radio device , a cell phone ....get damaged , they don't receive the signals , waves , images ...they used to do : Does that mean the latter were created by those devices ? : just an analogy , since the devices mentioned here are all material .

And since certain drugs or damaged brain areas seem to either expand , reduce or "destroy " consciousness , the sense of self or identity ...., then , i presume that when the body dies or ceases functioning , then , consciousness gets liberated from their limiting capacity , i don't know .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Quote
author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg443326#msg443326 date=1414589614]

Once again : the observer and the observed are inseparable : the subjective and objective are inseparable : the subjective interferes with the objective : or as Von Neumann used to say : the measurement paradox in QM takes place in the mind , so , we take the respresentations of the mind in that regard for the physical reality in QM , for example .

Take a closer look at the work and results of PEAR .

For example , even at the macro level : have you ever been so immersed in your creative work, or other life experiences , art ....to the extent that you "lost " yourself in that environment ?


What???? You pull examples from ordinary experience to illustrate a scientific concept, and the examples are not at all causally related or relevant, only superficially similar. The fact that someone who is focused on an interesting activity pays less attention to other environmental stimuli does not prove anything about quantum mechanics or the observer effect or that consciousness is immaterial. It no more demonstrates that than my saying "Time flies while you're having fun" proves Special Relativity.

I just used that analogy to illustrate the fact that consciousness is almost always immersed in its environment in one form or another ,and can thus not be separated from its environment , not to mention the role of the sub-conscious in shaping our consciousness .

So, when we achieve higher levels of cosciousness , we get aware of the fact that we are inseparable from our environment : the object and the subject are inseparable : we ,as observers and active agents through our consciousness , cannot be separated from the observed or from our environment with wich we interact daily .

Only when we think and analyze things , do we get the impression perception or illusion that we are separate individuals , separate from our observed environment or from our objects of study, not to mention other subjects or minds we interact with , be it friends , loved ones ,co-workers or total strangers  .

Quote
Quote
Quote
When we do or feel, experience things through  our whole beings , we become inseparately one with our environment . Only when we think , try to analyze things , we get the illusion or impression , or perception that we are separate from our environment .
We are always immersed in our inner and outer environments , while exchanging information, energy , matter with our environments , consciously or sub-consciously .

Sometimes , we are not aware of that , so, we have the illusion that we are separate beings or separate individuals from our environment .
The whole universe is in fact interconnected = 1, whether we are aware of that fact or not  : this is no new age bullshit .

Even when you are working on your pc, or walking out your dog , you are interacting with them and with the rest of your environment at that time and place and beyond  , influencing them , and vice versa , by exchanging information with them, consciously or subcosnciously .

Only when you think, analyze things ...you get the impression or illusion that you are separate or independent from your environment in some way .

Oh, absolutely we are connected and part of the environment, and exchange information, and transform energy, and obtain nutrients, and build things, - all through known physical processes, which for some reason you feel are inadequate. I can "affect things with my mind" however it requires other stuff like talking to people, moving parts of my body, manipulating objects, writing a book, etc.
[/quote]

( Physical or material processes are not the whole picture , just a part of it : our reality is psycho-physical: a part of those physical processes , or a part of the physical reality , is  just a creation or a representation of our minds , and there are no physical or material processes that can account for the working or function of consciousness : see the following , especially " The science of the subjective " link , and "20th and 21st century science : reflections and projections " short 2 PDF from the link here below about the scholarly papers of PEAR : scroll all the way down when you get redirected to the following link :


http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/publications.html  ) .


That's not what i meant,  just a part of it , Cheryl : what i meant was :

We are inseparable from our environment : there is no independent -observer : our consciousnesses  shapes the observed we interact with , be it other consciousnesses or objects : we just get both a subjective and objective representations of our environment : even the physical reality in QM is partly subjective : a creation of our minds .That's why Von Neumann,for example,  said that the measurement paradox or problem in QM takes place in the mind ....partly thus: even what we call the physical reality is both objective and subjective  .

Science itself cannot but be both objective and subjective : see how materialism, for example , has been taken for granted as science or as the scientific world view ...

See those above mentioned relatively short PEAR scholarly papers on the subject .
 

Offline dlorde

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1441
  • Thanked: 9 times
  • ex human-biologist & software developer
    • View Profile
When the brain is damaged , that does not mean that consciousness gets altered , reduced or that it disappears : it is still there , it just gets blocked since its brain channels are damaged or disconnected .
We've been through all this before, but to save looking out the posts, how does your theory account for brain damage causing personality changes? Is personality not part of consciousness?

If not, what is?
« Last Edit: 30/10/2014 00:10:48 by dlorde »
 

Offline jeffreyH

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3926
  • Thanked: 55 times
  • The graviton sucks
    • View Profile
Why does DNA have the instructions to build a brain at all? At what point do a set of brain cells start thinking? How many are needed before this starts? How much information is hard wired? Is any information hard wired? Why is it hard wired? Is that because it is passed from mother to child? Have I asked enough questions yet? It is complicated and incomprehensible. Some things just are mysterious.
 

Offline cheryl j

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1460
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • View Profile


See those above mentioned relatively short PEAR scholarly papers on the subject .

How does one get from 'PEARS seemed to generate some non random numbers' to 'my consciousness, including all my memories, ideas, beliefs, feelings, personality traits will continue to exist after my death without my brain for all of eternity.'

It would be one thing to claim that brain damage and drugs simply prevented other people from detecting my conscious experience, but if I myself am aware that I can no longer perform the mental functions that I desire to and could once do with ease (as stroke victims attest) that would seem, as you are so fond of saying, paradoxical to say the least.

While I am struggling in my robot body, is my "real" consciousness up there performing all these mental operations perfectly?  You're essentially saying that my own subjective experience of my consciousness is false, while  the one I cannot even access, control, communicate with, and am not aware of, is the "true" one.
« Last Edit: 30/10/2014 01:30:45 by cheryl j »
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4719
  • Thanked: 155 times
  • life is too short to drink instant coffee
    • View Profile
It is complicated and incomprehensible. Some things just are mysterious.

Complicated, yes. Incomprehensible? I think not, but a lot depends on asking the right questions. For instance I don't think "why" belongs in the realm of evolutionary science as it implies an ulterior motive, for which there is no evidence. But "how" is an entirely scientific question, and worth asking, since it helps us diagnose and fix things that don't work properly.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Why does DNA have the instructions to build a brain at all? At what point do a set of brain cells start thinking? How many are needed before this starts? How much information is hard wired? Is any information hard wired? Why is it hard wired? Is that because it is passed from mother to child? Have I asked enough questions yet? It is complicated and incomprehensible. Some things just are mysterious.

First of all :

Neo-Darwinian genetic determinism has been refuted by many prominent scientists such as James A.Shapiro : see this on the subject :


Second :

You forgot to ask where all that DNA or life biological information does come from, in the first place to begin with , how is the extra information  added to account for novel body plans and forms ? Where that extra or added biological information comes from ?

Not to mention how   quantitative neurophysiology can account for qualitative qualia , subjective experiences , mental states ...

The role of DNA has even been overrated . Not to mention epigenetics and more , no to mention how even beliefs and expectations can heal harm or change our biology, turn genes on or off : see this on the subject :


 Or how our minds can change our brains' structures, anatomy physiology through self-directed neuroplasticity   .

Concerning the latter ,see how this amazing woman was able to fix and overcome her severe disabilities through self-directed neuro-plasticity via the efforts of her informed mind and actions, thanks to the work of a Russian neuroscientist Alexander Luria mainly ,  and how she even designed brain excercises , techniques to help disabled kids get rid of or improve their disabilities and much more :


See her life work on her site :

http://www.barbaraarrowsmithyoung.com/

See this great book of hers on the subject :

http://www.barbaraarrowsmithyoung.com/book/

How meditation, mindfulness can do what they do , not to mention neurofeedback and the rest .

Clearly , no material process can account for all that and more .

Only materialist inexplicable mysterious magic can 'explain " the above thus lol

May God bless the evolution -god that works in mysterious ways through its invisible mysterious magical hand : that of the unguided blind random highly unlikely ,step by step ,gradual , mathematically impossible , lottery of the so-called natural selection lol: the materialist version of design in nature : the most implausible one at that , that is , that violates Occam's razor through a billion of ways .


« Last Edit: 30/10/2014 18:04:33 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1763
    • View Profile
Quote
author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg443364#msg443364 date=1414632421]


See those above mentioned relatively short PEAR scholarly papers on the subject .

How does one get from 'PEARS seemed to generate some non random numbers' to 'my consciousness, including all my memories, ideas, beliefs, feelings, personality traits will continue to exist after my death without my brain for all of eternity.'

Who said that PEAR said that ?

Quote
It would be one thing to claim that brain damage and drugs simply prevented other people from detecting my conscious experience, but if I myself am aware that I can no longer perform the mental functions that I desire to and could once do with ease (as stroke victims attest) that would seem, as you are so fond of saying, paradoxical to say the least.

I don't follow you here : what do you mean by saying that  if drugs and brain damage simply prevented other people from detecting your conscious experience ????

Stroke victims can no longer perform certain mental functions , certain of their body parts get paralyzed ....simply because their brain damaged areas prevent their minds from doing that .That's why they can recover from that through brain excercises and other therapies.

Quote
While I am struggling in my robot body, is my "real" consciousness up there performing all these mental operations perfectly?  You're essentially saying that my own subjective experience of my consciousness is false, while  the one I cannot even access, control, communicate with, and am not aware of, is the "true" one.

I am not following you here either : can you be more specific ? I said : when certain brain areas are damaged , so , consciousness gets blocked from expressing itself at that level , since consciousness and brain are inseparable , so , consciousness has to "flow " , so to speak, through the brain and body ...

Consciousness is still fully intact of course , it just gets blocked from flowing or expressing itself through brain and body : the unfortunate people who become victims of brain injuries, damage , diseases , ....don't get access to certain aspects of their consciousness , even though the latter is still fully intact .
 

The Naked Scientists Forum


 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums