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Author Topic: Major Bombshell : Manifesto For A Post-Materialistic Science :  (Read 186493 times)

Offline dlorde

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Guys :
You can't access the full version of this  following amazing article of the new scientist unless you subscribe to the latter :

Meh - read it when it was first published. It's just a melodramatic popular science version of the MIT introduction to quantum superposition lecture I posted earlier. Isn't QM weird?  ::) (yeah, we know).

The argument from incredulity is a persistent human failing - as continually demonstrated by the new knowledge we acquire. Likewise the associated magical thinking, e.g. the attribution of magical ('non-physical') influences to account for poorly understood mechanisms. Together they account for too much nonsense and too many fantasy belief systems. Discovering the real world is far more interesting.
 

Offline cheryl j

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Cheryl :

Here is a totally different conception of the mind-brain relationship ( In total contrast with that outdated and refuted mindless Skinner's behaviorism that used to deny the very existence of consciousness or the mind as such .) , that's consistent with the available data , that has been scientifically demonstrated as well ,that's close to our own awareness of our daily experiences  and it does work too  : i have tried it myself with success :  The non-materialist cognitive psychology or therapy :





You missed the point entirely. Not surprised.

He was not denying the "existence" of consciousness. His argument was that if the sensory processes are material, the mapping of them to the brain certainly can be as well; that everything we think "about" is ultimately derived from them and replicates them. His second point is that thinking is a process, an event, something I've argued as well.  When an anti-materialist says "point to an idea in the brain," one could just as easily say, "show me where walking is in the legs" or explain how a bird can fly when none of its individual cells can. Tell me where a tornado goes when it's finished being a tornado. States and processes are material based, even if they are less tangible.

And cognitive therapy can be explained, (actually better explained,) from a neuroscience perspective. If the brain does have modules that approach or solve problems in different ways, like a team of rivals, there is no reason why one part cannot, with practice, compensate for the deficiencies, or over ride the impulses of another part. But that actually makes no sense if you view immaterial consciousness as a discrete, uniform entity, in which case it really is boot strapping.
« Last Edit: 30/11/2014 02:09:13 by cheryl j »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=dlorde link=topic=52526.msg445553#msg445553 date=1417298813]
Well, my posted excerpt to Cheryl here above of course from "The mind and the brain " by Jeffrey Schwartz and Sharon Begley, that can explain all that to you better than i can do .
Seriously? You do know neuroplasticity is an entirely material property, right? it occurs as a result of changes in the firing patterns of groups of neurons. You're aware you can't just 'will' yourself to know stuff and have new abilities, right? You have to actually learn the stuff, you have to practice, repeatedly exercise those neural circuits so they change and grow (much in the way a muscle will change & grow with exercise).

How can you learn , practice exercises or training, meditation, mindfulness, brain training , brain exercises , biofeedback training  ...without mindful focus or  attention and action of your conscious  will ? : you're just talking rubbish , dlorde ,and i am not  gonna say sorry this time,not even out of politeness or courtesy,  simply because you are ,big time, as a matter of fact .

How did you get your degree , do your work , lead your life , ...without any existence of your human capacity of mindful attention and focus through your active will and corresponding action?

We're not determined computers or machines , no hardware run by software .Materialism cannot intrinsically but say we are , but that's no empirical fact , just materialist bullshit : see the difference ?

Yeah , right : who   practices  brain training or brain exercises to make the structure or anatomy and physiology of the brain change ?: does the brain do that all by itself ,by changing itself , or is that done through the active mindful  will of the person in question who changes his/her brain that way , through brain exercises , meditation, mindfulness ...(Would ordinary muscles ,for example , just develop by themselves without active will and action of the person in question to train his /her muscles , or do the brain and muscles do that all by themselves on behalf of  the lazy person in question who doesn't have to do anything at all then to become  a body builder,for example  : he /she can just let his /her brain and muscles do the job all  by themselves on his behalf lol )

See the amazing story of this woman who could change her brain in significant ways through informed trained determined active action of her own will to overcome her severe disabilities with which she was born :

http://www.barbaraarrowsmithyoung.com/

You should read her book (Go that 1 too ) .

What about biofeedback training ? ,when one can voluntarily take control of some aspects of one's own  autonomic nervous system:

Biofeedback : Source :    Encyclopædia Britannica (2013).

 Encyclopædia Britannica Ultimate Reference Suite :

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"Information supplied instantaneously about an individual's own physiological processes.
 Data concerning a person's cardiovascular activity (blood pressure and heart rate), temperature, brain waves, or muscle tension is monitored electronically and returned, or “fed back,” to that person by a gauge on a meter, a light, or a sound. Though such activity of the autonomic nervous system was once thought to be beyond an individual's control,  it has been shown that an individual can be taught to use  the biological data to learn how to voluntarily control  the body's reactions to stress or “outside-the-skin” events.
An individual learns through biofeedback training to detect  his physical reactions (inside-the-skin events) and establish control over them.
Biofeedback training is a type of behaviour therapy that attempts  to change learned responses to stressors.  It can be very successful in alleviating symptoms (e.g., pain and muscle tension) of a disorder, and its effects can be especially lasting if used  in combination with psychotherapy to help the patient understand his reactions to stress.
Complaints that have been treated by biofeedback training include migraine headaches,gastrointestinal cramping (e.g., colitis), high blood pressure, tics, and the frequency and severity of epileptic seizures. Theoretically,many psychologists believe it possible to bring under partial control  any physiological process that can be continuously monitored and displayed,including electrophysiological activity of the limbic system and other homeostatic processes.
Biofeedback training with brain waves has also been useful in enhancing mental functioning. “Alpha (wave) training” elicits the calming and  integrative effects of meditation. Theta wave training has led to more focused attention, the control of “mental blocks” during examinations, and the control of anxiety." End quote .


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The 'will' to learn stuff and do the practice is just as material - a result of your low-level drives and biases filtered and modified by the higher level processes based on life experience and reflective feedbacks.

Learning and practice or training cannot be accomplished without the focused active attention of the will , the related (neuro) physiological processes are driven by the former .


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None of that stuff requires any non-physical or non-material influences; you can certainly describe it all in terms of non-material processes, and in a top-down causal sense, if that helps you understand the high level behaviour, but those processes and emergent interacting patterns of activity are all expressions of physical, material neuronal activity.

You're just talking non-sense : without the top-down non-mechanical causation of the mind through the attention focus and action of the will , those physiological processes relating to neuroplasticity and to self-directed neuroplasticity through brain training , learning ...wouldn't take place : the latter are just the image of the process , not the process itself , let alone that they are the cause of the process .

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Nor is there any reason to believe, or evidence to suggest, that exotic quantum physics is involved or necessary, although it is conceivable that QM might help optimize critical paths (as in photosynthesis or avian navigation).

How do you know that then ? Nobody understands QM .Better still : no interpretation of QM can be proved yet conclusively , although one particular interpretation of QM is way more simple and plausible than all the rest : the observer effect one that's consistent with what Schwartz and other non-materialist scientists have been saying on the subject ,and that's consistent also with our daily experiences also, to mention just that .

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Looking for a non-physical, non-local consciousness, you're just chasing redundant phantasmic figments. You're not in a dark room looking for a black cat; neuroscience has turned the light on and there's no cat there; a few dark shadows, perhaps, but nowhere for a cat to hide. If you take off your dark glasses, you can see that for yourself.

Sweet dreams, Alice in your own materialistic magical wonderland .

That's just a matter of opinion or interpretation of what neuroscience has been saying , neuroscience that's been more consistent with the above than with that materialistic non-sense .

Materialistic neuroscience has been just stuck within the fundamentally false and superseded by QM deterministic mechanical classical Newtonian world view , while the non-materialist neuroscience is more consistent with QM ...


 

Offline dlorde

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How can you learn , practice exercises or training, meditation, mindfulness, brain training , brain exercises , biofeedback training  ...without mindful focus or  attention and action of your conscious  will ? : you're just talking rubbish , dlorde ,and i am not  gonna say sorry this time,not even out of politeness or courtesy,  simply because you are ,big time, as a matter of fact .
LOL! the argument from incredulity and insult... yet again. Sadly predictable.

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We're not determined computers or machines , no hardware run by software .Materialism cannot intrinsically but say we are , but that's no empirical fact , just materialist bullshit : see the difference ?
I can see that you find the idea that you are the complex product of your genetic endowment and your life experiences distressing, but, ironically, that's the complex product of your genetic endowment and your life experiences  ;)
New life experiences can help you get over it.

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What about biofeedback training ? ,when one can voluntarily take control of some aspects of one's own  autonomic nervous system:
That's a great example of what I was talking about - you just need to think through the chain of motivations behind that voluntary control.

[hint: when trying to rebut or refute an argument, it helps to understand that argument. If you don't understand it, ask questions until you do. Unsupported assertion is just childish and reflects lack of understanding.]
« Last Edit: 30/11/2014 18:54:13 by dlorde »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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dlorde, Cheryl :

Watch this 2014 movie : perfectly in line with materialism lol :

"We will be able" to upload lol consciousness and the mind of deceased loved ones to a computer : bullshit : nice movie though :

Trailer :
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=dlorde link=topic=52526.msg445591#msg445591 date=1417373005]
How can you learn , practice exercises or training, meditation, mindfulness, brain training , brain exercises , biofeedback training  ...without mindful focus or  attention and action of your conscious  will ? : you're just talking rubbish , dlorde ,and i am not  gonna say sorry this time,not even out of politeness or courtesy,  simply because you are ,big time, as a matter of fact .
LOL! the argument from incredulity and insult... yet again. Sadly predictable.

Wrong on all accounts : see above .

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We're not determined computers or machines , no hardware run by software .Materialism cannot intrinsically but say we are , but that's no empirical fact , just materialist bullshit : see the difference ?
I can see that you find the idea that you are the complex product of your genetic endowment and your life experiences distressing, but, ironically, that's the complex product of your genetic endowment and your life experiences  ;)
New life experiences can help you get over it.

Genetic determinism has been refuted and it does make no biological sense whatsoever either , not to mention epigenetics ....
As for the rest of this post of yours , i see you still can't make the difference between deterministic mechanical materialism (that was built upon the fundamentally false deterministic mechanical classical Newtonian world view )and between science yet , if ever .

New life experiences might make you reject your false materialism someday , who knows , if ever ,

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What about biofeedback training ? ,when one can voluntarily take control of some aspects of one's own  autonomic nervous system:
That's a great example of what I was talking about - you just need to think through the chain of motivations behind that voluntary control.

Yeah, right ...only if we would live in a deterministic mechanical  universe that is : we don't .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Guys :
You can't access the full version of this  following amazing article of the new scientist unless you subscribe to the latter :

Meh - read it when it was first published. It's just a melodramatic popular science version of the MIT introduction to quantum superposition lecture I posted earlier. Isn't QM weird?  ::) (yeah, we know).

The argument from incredulity is a persistent human failing - as continually demonstrated by the new knowledge we acquire. Likewise the associated magical thinking, e.g. the attribution of magical ('non-physical') influences to account for poorly understood mechanisms. Together they account for too much nonsense and too many fantasy belief systems. Discovering the real world is far more interesting.

Yeah , right :
Whenever something wouldn't fit into your absurd outdated paradoxical superseded and false materialistic secular dogmatic  religion , well, just ignore it , deny it as such or just try to explain it away that way .

Way to go, scientist.
 

Offline dlorde

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"We will be able" to upload lol consciousness and the mind of deceased loved ones to a computer : bullshit : nice movie though :
Theoretically this could be done - it's the same level of technology as the Star Trek transporter, and as far as I can tell, it doesn't break any fundamental laws of physics. I used to think it might be achievable someday, but I now think it's technically near-as-dammit impossible (to capture a sufficiently detailed snapshot of all the relevant information in a specific human brain, potentially to molecular level). However, I'm pretty sure it will be possible to create a generic neuromorphic computer emulation of a human brain - the US and European Union are funding just such a project.

However, as a thought experiment, like the Star Trek transporter, it is a rich and fascinating source of Ship-of-Theseus-type philosophical puzzles about the nature of identity.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg445559#msg445559 date=1417311316]
Cheryl :

Here is a totally different conception of the mind-brain relationship ( In total contrast with that outdated and refuted mindless Skinner's behaviorism that used to deny the very existence of consciousness or the mind as such .) , that's consistent with the available data , that has been scientifically demonstrated as well ,that's close to our own awareness of our daily experiences  and it does work too  : i have tried it myself with success :  The non-materialist cognitive psychology or therapy :





You missed the point entirely. Not surprised.

He was not denying the "existence" of consciousness. His argument was that if the sensory processes are material, the mapping of them to the brain certainly can be as well; that everything we think "about" is ultimately derived from them and replicates them. His second point is that thinking is a process, an event, something I've argued as well.  When an anti-materialist says "point to an idea in the brain," one could just as easily say, "show me where walking is in the legs" or explain how a bird can fly when none of its individual cells can. Tell me where a tornado goes when it's finished being a tornado. States and processes are material based, even if they are less tangible.

And cognitive therapy can be explained, (actually better explained,) from a neuroscience perspective. If the brain does have modules that approach or solve problems in different ways, like a team of rivals, there is no reason why one part cannot, with practice, compensate for the deficiencies, or over ride the impulses of another part. But that actually makes no sense if you view immaterial consciousness as a discrete, uniform entity, in which case it really is boot strapping.
[/quote]

Does Skinner's behaviourism not deny the very existence of the subjective inner experiences, emotions , will ,consciousness ,the mind ...as such ? Get real.

Furthermore, you're just confusing materialism with science still : non-materialist neuroscience and non-materialist cognitive psychology , the latter that relies on the former , are  both consistent with QM ,not to mention that the non-materialist neuroscience is the best interpretation so far of the empirical evidence that has been delivered by neuroscience and is consistent with the latter's findings  , while the materialistic neuroscience 's model or theory of consciousness has been supported by absolutely no =zero  empirical evidence whatsoever, and while materialistic neuroscience is still stuck within the fundamentally false and superseded outdated deterministic mechanical classical Newtonian world view upon which materialism was built , ironically enough .

In short :

What conclusive empirical evidence is  there that  proves that the universe,including ourselves , is just exclusively physical or material , and hence it can be explained and accounted for by just material processes ? None = a big zero : that's just materialism , no science .

Better still , and once again to ad nausea lol as RD said , i repeat the following for the millionth time :

The major anomaly of them all : consciousness , has been breaking the classical dry deterministic mechanical neck of materialism by proving it to be false , simply because materialism can never intrinsically account for consciousness and all its related processes and anomalies , let alone explain them, and hence the universe , including ourselves , is not exclusively material or physical = it cannot be accounted for , let alone explained , by just material processes .

Better still : the 2 major enigmas ever : consciousness and QM have been encountering each other : none of them can be understood , accounted for or explained without reference to the other ,since they are both inseparably and inescapably intertwined with each other,which means that any scientific understanding of the universe , including ourselves , is inseparable from the nature and role of consciousness in it ,and cannot be done without it as well  .
« Last Edit: 30/11/2014 19:41:41 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline dlorde

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Genetic determinism has been refuted and it does make no biological sense whatsoever either , not to mention epigenetics ....
Epigenetics is the influence of the environment on gene expression - didn't you know?  ;)

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As for the rest of this post of yours , i see you still can't make the difference between deterministic mechanical materialism (that was built upon the fundamentally false deterministic mechanical classical Newtonian world view )and between science yet , if ever .
Although the Many Worlds interpretation resolves the apparently stochastic nature of QM, I'm happy to concede QM uncertainty until we can be sure which interpretation is the best model of reality. But there's no doubt that, at a macro scale, the world is deterministic to a high-level approximation - if it wasn't, neither our modern technology nor biology, nor the cosmological universe itself, would function as it does. As noted elsewhere, this doesn't mean it's predictable; chaos and emergence sees to that.

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New life experiences might make you reject your false materialism someday
Possible, but unlikely.

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That's a great example of what I was talking about - you just need to think through the chain of motivations behind that voluntary control.

Yeah, right ...only if we would live in a deterministic mechanical  universe that is : we don't .
Strictly speaking perhaps not, but see above. Furthermore, we know very precisely what QM predicts about our observations - its not a wild card, which is why the world around us behaves so deterministically at macro scales - and why Newton's Laws still apply at everyday human scales (after all, he derived them from empirical grounds).
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=dlorde link=topic=52526.msg445600#msg445600 date=1417376135]
Genetic determinism has been refuted and it does make no biological sense whatsoever either , not to mention epigenetics ....
Epigenetics is the influence of the environment on gene expression - didn't you know?  ;)

I know : The refuted genetic determinism (See the lecture ,for example, of James A.Shapiro on the subject on youtube : "21st century evolution revisited " ) cannot be reconciled with epigenetics and with the fact that we can even turn our genes off and on,change or physiology,  just via placebo effects or beliefs thoughts , with the fact that we can change our brains through self-directed neuroplasticity , through meditation , brain training ,...and cannot be reconciled with the fact that we can control some aspects of the autonomic brain .....

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As for the rest of this post of yours , i see you still can't make the difference between deterministic mechanical materialism (that was built upon the fundamentally false deterministic mechanical classical Newtonian world view )and between science yet , if ever .
Although the Many Worlds interpretation resolves the apparently stochastic nature of QM, I'm happy to concede QM uncertainty until we can be sure which interpretation is the best model of reality. But there's no doubt that, at a macro scale, the world is deterministic to a high-level approximation - if it wasn't, neither our modern technology nor biology, nor the cosmological universe itself, would function as it does. As noted elsewhere, this doesn't mean it's predictable; chaos and emergence sees to that.

Yeah right : the observer effect interpretation of QM is the most simple , the best and most plausible one so far ,and thus makes room for relative free will: see also Bell's theorem and all its related experiments  (relative free will in relation to the kinds of measurements  ,experiments , experiments' design ...scientists can decide to conduct regarding  the quantum level at least )  in total contrast with that absurd untestable MW theory that's just a materialistic desperate attempt to rescue the  deterministic false materialism  ,and hence since the conscious active power of the human will through the power of attention focus and action cannot but be relatively free , then, the universe cannot be deterministic or mechanical.

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New life experiences might make you reject your false materialism someday
Possible, but unlikely.

Unlikely ?: you know that already he lol .No need for new life experiences for you then . lol

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That's a great example of what I was talking about - you just need to think through the chain of motivations behind that voluntary control.

Yeah, right ...only if we would live in a deterministic mechanical  universe that is : we don't .
Strictly speaking perhaps not, but see above. Furthermore, we know very precisely what QM predicts about our observations - its not a wild card, which is why the world around us behaves so deterministically at macro scales - and why Newton's Laws still apply at everyday human scales (after all, he derived them from empirical grounds).

I thought the whole universe was/is quantum "mechanical " ,that physicists  still can't understand QM while using it so successfully ,and that both relativity theories still can't be unified with QM , not to mention that  99,99999999 % of the universe is made of "empty space " and the remaining 0,00000000000 1 % is made of cloudy spooky weird wave/particle duality , not to mention that so-called renormalization of QM maths just to make room for the alleged existence of the unknown dark matter and unknown dark energy which  allegedly  "occupy " 96 % of the universe .

What makes you so sure of yourself then as to assert the above ? Nothing , just a -priori held materialistic thin-air beliefs, no empirical evidence  .

Way to go, scientist.
« Last Edit: 30/11/2014 20:15:16 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline RD

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... and once again to ad nausea lol as RD said ...

However I did spell it correctly : "ad nauseam" , ( in Reply #595 ).
« Last Edit: 30/11/2014 20:21:13 by RD »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=dlorde link=topic=52526.msg445598#msg445598 date=1417374783]
"We will be able" to upload lol consciousness and the mind of deceased loved ones to a computer : bullshit : nice movie though :
Theoretically this could be done - it's the same level of technology as the Star Trek transporter, and as far as I can tell, it doesn't break any fundamental laws of physics. I used to think it might be achievable someday, but I now think it's technically near-as-dammit impossible (to capture a sufficiently detailed snapshot of all the relevant information in a specific human brain, potentially to molecular level). However, I'm pretty sure it will be possible to create a generic neuromorphic computer emulation of a human brain - the US and European Union are funding just such a project.

Beware of confusing sci-fic with science , even though the former can sometimes become the latter :

Ok, they can create a s-emulation of the human brain , that can be done , simply because the brain is a physical or material process , but that will not tell them much about how consciousness shapes the brain , work through it ,how consciousness shapes the illusory physical reality ...., let alone about the origin or emergence of consciousness , simply because consciousness is a non-capturable non-local and non-physical process that can neither be s-emulated nor "uploaded " to any computer or machine , let alone to any other man's brain  lol .

Concerning the latter , we all "upload-download " to-from each other some aspects of our consciousnesses lol by communicating with each other , exchanging ideas with each other ...

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However, as a thought experiment, like the Star Trek transporter, it is a rich and fascinating source of Ship-of-Theseus-type philosophical puzzles about the nature of identity.

Maybe .
Identity or self-identity is an elusive dynamic process that might turn out to be fully illusory .
Teleportation is yet another fascinating subject : some say some ancient civilizations could do that , i don't know .Scientists have even succeeded in teleporting some particles lol
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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... and once again to ad nausea lol as RD said ...

However I did spell it correctly : "ad nauseam" , ( in Reply #595 ).

Ok, whatever grammar-vocabulary teacher . Have something relevant to say ?
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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dlorde :

Maybe ,the blue brain project will be delivering just what the genome project and the decade of the brain have been delivering , despite their bombastic talk ,i don't know .
I hope they can come up with something enlightening and useful .

P.S.: I had a relatively bad day today , sorry .Thanks for your interesting replies and time .Cheers.
« Last Edit: 30/11/2014 21:00:46 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline dlorde

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What makes you so sure of yourself then as to assert the above ? Nothing , just a -priori held materialistic thin-air beliefs, no empirical evidence  .

Way to go, scientist.
Ask NASA - they used Newtonian dynamics to direct their tours of the solar system. Are you suggesting they didn't happen?

The large-scale electronics in the device you use to post to these forums uses deterministic electronics, the microprocessor uses that and the precise predictability of quantum mechanics to function reliably. Your own body's biochemistry relies on predictable, repeatable reactions. The structure and behaviour of matter itself is determined by the interacting forces so precisely modelled by quantum field theory.

By all means carry on believing it's all down to immaterial, non-physical magic. That's entirely your decision. You've been given enough information to understand should you wish to. The universe doesn't care what you believe, and science and the acquisition of knowledge will continue happily on its way without any need to invoke your redundant hypothesis.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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There he goes again with his NASA and classical physics lol
Gotta go, bye ,good night , thanks .
 

Offline cheryl j

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Does Skinner's behaviourism not deny the very existence of the subjective inner experiences, emotions , will ,consciousness ,the mind ...as such ? Get real.



Uh no, he never did. At the time he did his research, there weren't MRIs, PETs, and much less was known about brain anatomy and biochemistry. Skinner just focused on what he could measure and test, which was observable behavior. But every new science has to start somewhere and his decision to start with that was a reasonable one. Even when models change, good data is still good data.
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Furthermore, you're just confusing materialism with science still : non-materialist neuroscience and non-materialist cognitive psychology , the latter that relies on the former , are  both consistent with QM ,not to mention that the non-materialist neuroscience is the best interpretation.....



"Non materialist neuroscience"?? Did I really just read that????
That's hilarious, Don.
« Last Edit: 30/11/2014 23:23:26 by cheryl j »
 

Offline Ethos_

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"Non materialist neuroscience"?? Did I really just read that????
That's hilarious, Don.
LOL,.................I'd appreciate an explanation for that one myself!!!

Come on Don!! Define "Non materialist neuroscience" without referencing the human nervous system. I double dog dare you!
 

Offline alancalverd

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Still waiting, Don. Just one piece of evidence, please, that whatever you advocate delivers a more accurate prediction than whatever it is that you decry.
 

Offline cheryl j

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How can you learn , practice exercises or training, meditation, mindfulness, brain training , brain exercises , biofeedback training  ...without mindful focus or  attention and action of your conscious  will ?



There's nothing about attention that makes it extra magical or incompatible with neuroscience. Is though, an interesting topic, if you'd like to discuss it more in detail.
For starters, here's some comments from wikipedia:

Neural correlates

Most experiments show that one neural correlate of attention is enhanced firing. If a neuron has a certain response to a stimulus when the animal is not attending to the stimulus, then when the animal does attend to the stimulus, the neuron's response will be enhanced even if the physical characteristics of the stimulus remain the same.

In a 2007 review, Knudsen[46] describes a more general model which identifies four core processes of attention, with working memory at the center:

    Working memory temporarily stores information for detailed analysis.
    Competitive selection is the process that determines which information gains access to working memory.
    Through top-down sensitivity control, higher cognitive processes can regulate signal intensity in information channels that compete for access to working memory, and thus give them an advantage in the process of competitive selection. Through top-down sensitivity control, the momentary content of working memory can influence the selection of new information, and thus mediate voluntary control of attention in a recurrent loop (endogenous attention).[47]
    Bottom-up saliency filters automatically enhance the response to infrequent stimuli, or stimuli of instinctive or learned biological relevance (exogenous attention).[47]

Neutrally, at different hierarchical levels spatial maps can enhance or inhibit activity in sensory areas, and induce orienting behaviors like eye movement.

    At the top of the hierarchy, the frontal eye fields (FEF) on the dorsolateral frontal cortex contain a retinocentric spatial map. Microstimulation in the FEF induces monkeys to make a saccade to the relevant location. Stimulation at levels too low to induce a saccade will nonetheless enhance cortical responses to stimuli located in the relevant area.
    At the next lower level, a variety of spatial maps are found in the parietal cortex. In particular, the lateral intraparietal area (LIP) contains a saliency map and is interconnected both with the FEF and with sensory areas.
    Certain automatic responses that influence attention, like orienting to a highly salient stimulus, are mediated subcortically by the superior colliculi.
    At the neural network level, it is thought that processes like lateral inhibition mediate the process of competitive selection.

In many cases attention produces changes in the EEG. Many animals, including humans, produce gamma waves (40–60 Hz) when focusing attention on a particular object or activity.[48][49][50][51]

Another commonly used model for the attention system has been put forth by researchers such as Michael Posner divides attention into three functional components: alerting, orienting, and executive attention.[52][53]

    Alerting is the process involved in becoming and staying attentive toward the surroundings. It appears to exist in the frontal and parietal lobes of the right hemisphere, and is modulated by norepinephrine.[54][55]
    Orienting is the directing of attention to a specific stimulus.
    Executive attention is used when there is a conflict between multiple attention cues. It is essentially the same as the central executive in Baddeley's model of working memory. The Eriksen flanker task has shown that the executive control of attention may take place in the anterior cingulate cortex[56]
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=dlorde link=topic=52526.msg445609#msg445609 date=1417381397]
What makes you so sure of yourself then as to assert the above ? Nothing , just a -priori held materialistic thin-air beliefs, no empirical evidence  .

Way to go, scientist.
Ask NASA - they used Newtonian dynamics to direct their tours of the solar system. Are you suggesting they didn't happen?

I've already explained  to you, earlier on, that the fact that the classical deterministic mechanical Newtonian world view or classical physics,the fact that it  is approximately correct and fundamentally false does not mean that it doesn't work on the large scale .

Any idiot who would say otherwise must try to jump from a building  to "test " gravity lol

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The large-scale electronics in the device you use to post to these forums uses deterministic electronics, the microprocessor uses that and the precise predictability of quantum mechanics to function reliably. Your own body's biochemistry relies on predictable, repeatable reactions. The structure and behaviour of matter itself is determined by the interacting forces so precisely modelled by quantum field theory.

That's all about the physical universe ,who said otherwise ?

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By all means carry on believing it's all down to immaterial, non-physical magic. That's entirely your decision.

I was talking about the top-down active non-mechanical causation of the human mindful  will through the power of attention and focus only in that context , and in the context that QM can never be understood without reference to the mind , because they seem so inseparably and inescapably intertwined with each other ,and in the context that ,as science gets more advanced , it will turn out that any progress in the study of the universe will be impossible without that in the study of consciousness , as a certain prominent physicist said whose similar quote i have posted , on many occasions .


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You've been given enough information to understand should you wish to. The universe doesn't care what you believe, and science and the acquisition of knowledge will continue happily on its way without any need to invoke your redundant hypothesis.

Ironically enough , this thread is all about a certain manifesto for a post-materialistic science ,since materialism is false ,and hence the universe cannot be just physical or material = the universe , including ourselves cannot be explained by material processes only .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=Ethos_ link=topic=52526.msg445613#msg445613 date=1417390863]


"Non materialist neuroscience"?? Did I really just read that????
That's hilarious, Don.
LOL,.................I'd appreciate an explanation for that one myself!!!

Ironically enough , this whole thread is all about a certain manifesto for a post-materialistic science that embraces both the material and the immaterial in nature , since materialism is false ,and hence the universe , including ourselves ,cannot be just physical or material = the universe , including ourselves thus , cannot be explained by material processes only,that's why all sciences for that matter must become non-materialist in the above mentioned sense ,by rejecting materialism,  including neuroscience  .

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Come on Don!! Define "Non materialist neuroscience" without referencing the human nervous system. I double dog dare you!

See above : the non-materialist neuroscience embraces both the material or physical brain and body , together with the rest of the physical environment or reality + embraces the  non-physical and non-local consciousness ,the mind and their related anomalies and processes as well .
 

Offline cheryl j

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Don't behave as if you have just heard that,don't be silly  :  (This whole thread is all about a certain manifesto for a post-materialistic science ,including for a post-materialistic neuroscience , remember .) i have even posted some excerpts of some books of non-materialist neuroscientist Mario Beauregard ,an excerpt from "The brain and the mind " by Jeffrey Schwatrz and Sharon Begley : a non-materialist cognitive psychology approach , to mention just that  .


Yeah, and it's identical to dualism. They've just renamed it.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Cheryl :


You haven't done your homework well , Cheryl :

The following is a very short excerpt from Encyclopedia Britannica regarding behaviourism :  no need to display the whole long text thus :

Quote : " a highly influential academic school of psychology that dominated psychological theory between the two world wars. Classical behaviourism, prevalent in the first third of the 20th century, was concerned exclusively with measurable and observable data and excluded ideas, emotions, and the consideration of inner mental experience and activity in general. In behaviourism, the organism is seen as “responding” to conditions (stimuli) set by the outer environment and by inner biological processes." End quote .

Not to mention that positivism that 's all about just observable phenomena does hold no water either,as i said to dlorde , earlier on .

Try to apply positivism to QM lol

By the way , reductionist materialism does not only deny the very existence of human subjective experiences or psyche , emotions , the mind ....as such , it does worse than that : materialism reduces all that to just (neuro) physiological processes .Worst : that materialist production theory regarding brain and mind has not been supported by any empirical evidence whatsoever .

If you have paid attention to what Graziano's theory was all about , for example, you would have noticed that he basically says that consciousness ,psyche ,the mind , free will , ...are just elaborate illusions : just computed by the brain simulations : useful illusions or useful illusory pragmatic survival strategies : illusions or brain simulations that feel real though : that's what the materialist logic says in fact when pushed to its limits .

Furthermore ,Skinner's mechanistic behaviourism school of psychology was mainly influenced by the work of Pavlov ,in the sense that one can know all about animal and human behaviour through only stimuli and response , without having to pay attention , to take into consideration , or to acknowledge the existence or relevance of the human inner subjective experiences or psyche or that of the mind ...: it concerns itself only with the observable behaviour through stimuli and response  .

Behaviourism does in fact see no difference between man and the brute ,simply put : they are all allegedly just deterministic physiology interacting with the physical world  , nothingelse .

Behaviourism was already rejected and refuted by the advances of neuroscience , by its related cognitive psychology ....

............


Don't behave as if you have just heard that,don't be silly  :  (This whole thread is all about a certain manifesto for a post-materialistic science ,including for a post-materialistic neuroscience , remember .) i have even posted some excerpts of some books of non-materialist neuroscientist Mario Beauregard ,an excerpt from "The brain and the mind " by Jeffrey Schwatrz and Sharon Begley : a non-materialist cognitive psychology approach , to mention just that  .
« Last Edit: 01/12/2014 18:41:55 by DonQuichotte »
 

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