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Author Topic: Major Bombshell : Manifesto For A Post-Materialistic Science :  (Read 186598 times)

Offline DonQuichotte

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Cheryl :

Schwartz and Ben Libet : Volition as veto power:

  "...The mechanism that allows volition to be physically efficacious  is the one i called mental force .Similarly to what has been called  "mind as a force field " ,mental force also echoes what Ben Libet ,a
pioneer in the study of the neurobiology of volition , has named the "conscious mental field ".
I proposed in the final version of my JCS paper that mental force is a physical force generated  by mental effort.

 It is the physical expression of will,And it is physically efficacious.At the moment an OCD patient actively changes how he responds to the obsessive thoughts and compulsions that besiege him  , the volitional effort and refocusing of attention away from the passively experienced sympthoms of OCD and toward alternative thoughts and behaviors generate mental force.
Mental force acts on the physical brain by amplifying the new emerging brain circuitry responsible for healthy behavior and quieting the OCD circuit.

We know that directed mental effort causes measurable  changes in brain function ,the self-directed neuroplasticity discussed earlier .And we know that mental force is not reducible to brain action : hence the need for a new actor -mental force.

This notion of mental force fit an idea bout free will that Libet had long propounded ,one known  as the "free won't" version of volition.In a nutshell, "free won't " refers to the mind's veto power over brain generated urges -exactly what happens when OCD patients follow the four steps.

Since Libet served as a guest editor for the JCS volume , it didn't hurt that i was able to  acknowledge my intellectual debt to him .But it was hardly a stretch to make the connection to his  work : OCD symptoms can be viewed as high-powered , painfully persistent versions of the desultory mental events that pop into consciousness countless times each day.

.Most of these thoughts do not insist on action, because the will can ignore them rather easily,Libet  had argued.But in OCD patients the thoughts  aren't nearly this well mannered : they are as insistent as a nagging toddler.The discomfort they cause  demands attention.Making that attention mindful and wise  requires effort of the highest degree .That effort , i suspected , becomes causally efficacious on brain action through the mechanism of mental force .

I had discussed this possibility with Libet ,and now  it became part of my argument .The fact that willful refocusing of attention caused brain changes in patients with OCD had exciting  implications for the physics of mind-brain ...." End quote

Same source
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Cheryl :

OCD Faulty but well established circuitry :

In the case of OCD patients , the brain sends deceptive messages to the mind that takes them for granted as real and acts upon them (The origin of those deceptive messages can be traced back to childhood or later history of OCD patients) .OCD patients can then learn how to make the necessary effort to ignore those intrusive compulsory thoughts by trying to refocus away from them, relabel them , revalue them for what they are ( Brain faulty circuitry without any real power or reality ), through Schwartz' four -steps therapy :


Quote : "...A major question now arises. How does the OCD patient focus attention away from the false messages transmitted by the faulty but well-established OCD circuit (“Count the cans in the pantry again!”) and toward the barely whispered “true” messages (“No, go feed the roses instead”) that are being transmitted by the still-frail circuits that therapy is coaxing into existence? Later on, once the “true” messages have been attended to and acted on for several weeks, they will probably have affected the gating of messages through the caudate and be ever-easier to act on.

 But early in therapy this process is weak, even nonexistent. It is not at all obvious how a patient heeds the healthy signal, which is just taking shape in his cortex and beginning to forge a new neural pathway through his caudate, and ignores the much more insistent one being generated incessantly by his firmly entrenched and blazingly hyperactive orbital frontal cortex–basal ganglia “error message” circuitry.

And once appropriate attention has been paid, how does he activate the motor circuitry that will take him away from the pantry and toward the rose garden? This last is an especially high hurdle, given that movement toward the pantry followed by obsessive counting has been the patient’s habitual response to the OCD urge for years. As a result, the maladaptive motor response has its own very well established brain circuitry in the basal ganglia." End quote.

 

Offline DonQuichotte

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OCD as a Brain State :

Quote : "...In the buzz of cerebral activity inside the brain, our subjective sense tells us that there arise countless choices, some of them barely breaking through to consciousness. If only for an instant, we hold in our mind a representation of those possible future states—washing our hands or walking into the garden to do battle with the weeds. Those representations have real, physical correlates in different brain states. As researchers such as Stephen Kosslyn of Harvard University have shown, mental imagery activates the same regions of the brain that actual perception does.

Thus thinking about washing one’s hands, for instance, activates some of the same critical brain structures that actual washing activates, especially at those critical moments when the patient forms the mental image of standing at the sink and washing. “The intended action is represented…as a mental image of the intended action, and as a corresponding representation in the brain,” says Stapp. In a quantum brain, all the constituents that make up a thought—the diffusion of calcium ions, the propagation of electrons, the release of neurotransmitter—exist as quantum superpositions.

 Thus the brain itself is characterized by a whole slew of quantum superpositions of possible brain events. The result is a buzzing confusion of alternatives, a more complex version of Schrödinger’s alternative (alive or dead) cats. The alternative that persists longer in attention is the one that is caught by a sequence of rapid consents that activates the Quantum Zeno Effect." End quote .

Same source.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Still waiting, Don. Just one example.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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[author=dlorde link=topic=52526.msg445841#msg445841 date=1417654761]
dlorde :

Volitional effort is effort of attention.
Attention and volition are the effects of activity in particular (executive) areas of the brain.

I am talking here about the effort of attention that's the essence of volition .You have to make the difference between passive determined attention and the volitional one through effort thus .

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Effort of attention is thus the essential phenomenon of will :
Therefore will is neural activity. You, as a conscious aware individual, are the activity of your brain. That's what the evidence tells us.

The effort of attention is a conscious aware act of the will that  cannot be determined by neurophysiology , come on .

The effort of the will through the effort of attention that acts like some sort of a veto action that chooses which brain states , thoughts ...to focus on through sustained effort .

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My take on the free will issue can be inferred from the above , in the sense that we do choose from all those existing infinite possibilities...
That's a reasonable interpretation. Ironically, like quantum mechanics, free will is a matter of interpretation. Consider why you make a particular choice - you have some reason or preference. Such reasons and preferences are the unique result of the person you are at the time you make the choice; and the person you are is the unique result of a lifetime of experiences, perceptions, memories; filtered and assimilated, having their dynamic influence on the development and organisation of your brain.


After thinking some more about the above , i think that the essence of volition is the veto power : the will can choose to focus through the effort of attention on particular brain states , thoughts , ideas , feelings , emotions ...or not .

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If, by accident or design, relevant parts of your brain are damaged, stimulated or suppressed, your choices can change. Your preferences may change, your reasons may change, your personality may change, your morals and ethics may change (this kind of damage has been observed and these experiments have been done).

Well, that's just because the brain correlates in question are damaged ,and hence the related changes can be explained by a faulty brain circuitry , i guess .

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Whether the results of all this complex neural activity can be considered deterministic is dubious - a certain degree of reliability and repeatability is necessary for effective function, but QM apart, the brain uses noise in its processing which can introduce a degree of randomness. It's certainly inherently unpredictable (despite the surprisingly high general predictability of human activity) due to the complexity of the system and its multiple feedbacks (and a degree of chaotic activity).

I am only concerned here about the volitional effort of attention that cannot be determined by neurophysiology .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=dlorde link=topic=52526.msg445839#msg445839 date=1417652153]
Well, then read my above posted evidence to the contrary of what you were saying here above , to see for yourself : prepare yourself for a surprise, big time  :

Your baseless and blind confidence in all that related materialistic  non-sense on the subject will be shaken, big time :

It has been proved ,via many experiments mentioned here above and more , that the mind can alter the structure or anatomy and physiology of the brain through the effort of volition via the effort of attention or focus : that's called self-directed neuroplasticity .
All those studies are quite consistent with what I posted already. The areas of the brain controlling attention, focus, and volition have been identified and some of the mechanisms and pathways by which they effect their influence on other areas of the brain have been identified and, in some cases, traced. As already mentioned, the research was originally prompted by the observation of specific deficits of those functions by damage to the areas concerned or to their connectivity.

The conscious aware effort of attention cannot be determined by neurophysiology , as you have to make the difference between passive and active attention through effort .

The brain correlates such as those concerning attention (There is single center of attention in the brain ) are just brain states.The mindful volitional effort of attention can decide whether or not to pay effortful attention through them or not .

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That you are unable to conceive that your will and volition is neural activity in those executive areas of your brain is something we can't help you with. It is a counter-intuitive realisation on a par with that of the strangeness of quantum mechanics, but in both cases we must follow the evidence rather than intuition.

That's just materialistic non-sense , no empirical facts : the mind is no product of the brain or brain activity , and hence the brain correaltes of the mind are just that : brain correlates or brain states to which the mind can pay the necessary effortful volitional attention or not .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Cheryl, You were just repeating the refuted materialistic stuff on the subject ,and that before reading my posted evidence also .

You haven't read about all those mentioned experiments here above yet , so, how can you tell then ?
Those experiments just prove the causal efficacy of the effort of mindful and active volition through the effort of focus or attention in changing the neuronal correlates  accordingly (The mind can change the brain , can have causal effects on the brain ...) , a fact that has been denied as such by the intrinsic reductionistic epiphenomalism of materialism , in the sense that the mind cannot have any causal effects on the physical brain , let alone on the rest of the physical reality .

The evidence for which you were asking all along is there above : you can either deliberately choose to check it out while  paying the necessary effort of attention to it through your mindful effort of volition , or not .

That's entirely up to you then .

I know it takes quite some time to read all that , but it's worth it .


You are implying that I am rejecting a claim without adequately looking at your evidence, or not reading "carefully" enough, but what you don't seem to understand is that I am not rejecting the evidence itself. I am not rejecting the author's assertion that volitional acts can alter how information is perceived, or saying that the events observed in the experiments did not occur. I am objecting to the axiomatic assumption that volition requires the immaterial. As with Stapp, it's just assumed, not explained.
And oddly so, since their findings keep indicating that volition requires specific intact brain structures to effect any changes in neuroplasticity which are also required to create other changes in the expression of  will.

You just don't understand what they were saying , i guess .

Since the mind and consciousness cannot be the products of the brain or brain activity , and since the brain correlates are just the physical "circuitry " through which the mind and consciousness work , then , you can't assume that that "circuitry " is all what there is .

See my short new posted excerpts regarding how OCD patients can change their brains and hence their consciousness accordingly through volitional effort and more .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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.....James was scrupulously fair in giving equal time to the view that attention is a fully determined result of brain function rather than a causally efficacious force. As he notes, it is entirely plausible that attention may be “fatally predetermined” by purely material laws. In this view, the amount of attention we pay a stimulus, be it one from the world outside or an internally generated thought or image, is determined solely by the properties of that stimulus and their interaction with our brain’s circuits. If the words you hear or the images you see are associated with a poignant memory, for instance, then they trigger—automatically and without any active effort by you —more attention than stimuli that lack such associations. In this case, “attention only fixes and retains what the ordinary laws of association bring ‘before the footlights’ of consciousness,” as James put it.
That is, the stimuli themselves provoke neural mechanisms that cause them to be attended to and fixed on.
 This is the attention-as-effect school of thinking.
But James did not think that attention was always and only a fully determined effect of the stimuli that are its object...." 

Same source .

This paragraph would seem to illustrate the difference in interpretation quite well. Anti-materialists falsely attribute to neuroscience the view that the brain is a uniform, unvarying, unmodifiable structure, that should respond to the exact same stimulus the exact same way every time. It falsely assumes a materialist model of the brain that should only respond to the strongest stimuli without determining the significance or relevance of stimuli, based on prior knowledge or experience. It ignores prior knowledge and new information from the outside world which is updated continuously. It ignores the influence of transient emotional states on perception, or makes one response more likely than another.

When actually, neuroscience does not posit this static model at all, as I've already explained earlier. Topdown flow of information is as important as feed-forward pathways in the brain.

That 's just a simple way of addressing the issue of volitional effort of attention that needs not to talk about all what the brain does  .They know pretty well that the brain is exposed to a storm of "information " from the outside world as well as from the inside , via   the senses , via the inner biology , via the feedbacks of the mind ...
 

Offline cheryl j

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Cheryl, You were just repeating the refuted materialistic stuff on the subject ,and that before reading my posted evidence also .

You haven't read about all those mentioned experiments here above yet , so, how can you tell then ?
Those experiments just prove the causal efficacy of the effort of mindful and active volition through the effort of focus or attention in changing the neuronal correlates  accordingly (The mind can change the brain , can have causal effects on the brain ...) , a fact that has been denied as such by the intrinsic reductionistic epiphenomalism of materialism , in the sense that the mind cannot have any causal effects on the physical brain , let alone on the rest of the physical reality .

The evidence for which you were asking all along is there above : you can either deliberately choose to check it out while  paying the necessary effort of attention to it through your mindful effort of volition , or not .

That's entirely up to you then .

I know it takes quite some time to read all that , but it's worth it .


You are implying that I am rejecting a claim without adequately looking at your evidence, or not reading "carefully" enough, but what you don't seem to understand is that I am not rejecting the evidence itself. I am not rejecting the author's assertion that volitional acts can alter how information is perceived, or saying that the events observed in the experiments did not occur. I am objecting to the axiomatic assumption that volition requires the immaterial. As with Stapp, it's just assumed, not explained.
And oddly so, since their findings keep indicating that volition requires specific intact brain structures to effect any changes in neuroplasticity which are also required to create other changes in the expression of  will.

You just don't understand what they were saying , i guess .

Since the mind and consciousness cannot be the products of the brain or brain activity.....



But that wasn't what their experiments demonstrated. They leap frog over the causes or correlates of volition itself, and just demonstrate that volition, what ever "it" is, regardless of how or why it happens, can change other types of brain activity. I'm not disputing that at all, and I agree that neuroplasticity is a very interesting and useful topic.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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dlorde , Cheryl :

See the encounter above between Ben Libet and Schwartz , so to speak .

Concerning Libet's experiment , i guess, that showed that one gets aware of one's decision -making only after the fact can be maybe explained by the following :

The mind is exposed to an infinite number of possibilities , eventualities , probabilities ...as brain states and as inner states ,so, what the mind decides to focus on through the action of volitional effort is what gets actualized : that's the veto power of the active mindful volitional effort ,either way,  in total contrast with the passive determined attention .

Volitional effort triggers a mental force that acts on the neuronal correlates : a mental force that triggers a physical one  : see above  .

P.S.: Why did you ignore all those above displayed  experiments ? that clearly show that the mindful volitional effort can change the brain as Schwartz ' 4-steps therapy also proved ? in relation to OCD patients and others who could change their brain and hence overcome their OCD symptoms by changing the OCD faulty and well established circuitry of the brain through the self-directed neuroplasticity .

OCD patients , for example, changed their correlated neuronal faulty circuitry that was sending false and deceptive messages to their minds ,and hence changed also their minds .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg445885#msg445885 date=1417727089]


But that wasn't what their experiments demonstrated. They leap frog over the causes or correlates of volition itself, and just demonstrate that volition, what ever "it" is, regardless of how or why it happens, can change other types of brain activity. I'm not disputing that at all, and I agree that neuroplasticity is a very interesting and useful topic.
[/quote]

No, you're wrong about that , Cheryl, big time : neither you nor dlorde are able yet to understand the essence of those experiments and Schwartz' words .
Those experiments show that volitional effort of attention can strengthen its neuronal correlates and change the brain accordingly ,so, when one would regularly do that ,the new neural pathways override the old habitual ones .

Schwartz' 4-steps therapy can thus also help people get rid of their bad habits , addictions ...not just of OCD symptoms, anxiety ...

I have experienced that myself : i had some bad habits and intrusive thoughts ...
Schwartz therapy helped me get rid of all that successfully : i am one of the living proofs of the power and causal efficacy of the volitional effort of attention in relation to the brain , needless to add thus .

Come, on : you have been thinking and behaving , the both of you , as if the mind is a product of the brain : that's a materialistic false belief assumption or extension of materialism , no empirical fact : the brain does not wholly determin our behaviors .There is absolutely no empirical evidence whatsoever that supports the materialist production theory .

Since you, guys , cannot but think materialistically , then you can't but assume that the brain does all the work ,simply put , while you have been experiencing the power and causal efficacy of volitional effort in relation to the brain and body , in relation to the rest of the physical reality , and that on a daily basis , come on , materialism has been blinding and distorting your perception .

Your brains cannot wholly determin what you are doing here in this forum, for example .Are you nuts ? lol

Even science itself cannot even exist , let alone function or progress without the mind or consciousness .We can't understand the universe or ourselves without the former .

Better still : QM can never be understood without reference to the mind .

Science 's progress that started / starts and will start in the very minds of scientists through ideas , insights , volitional effort of attention , hard work , creativity, imagination ...

Even history and civilizations have been shaped partly by ideas , for example : no small part of the  so-called enlightenment itself was built upon ideas , thoughts ...that were produced in the minds of philosophers ,scientists , artists (Those ideas were not created from a vacuum , ok , but the minds of those thinkers and scientists , artists ...had something to do with all that at least , together with their brain circuitry , together with the social biological psychological economical cultural political and other factors .) ...

How can you deny the obvious power and causal efficacy of the mind through the action of volitional effort of attention in relation to the brain and body and in relation to shaping the rest of the physical reality around you .

You're no powerless or determined hardware run by software ,without any degree of free will : materialism has been turning you into irrational illogical incoherent paradoxical ...insane mindless people , no offense , come on .

You've been conditioned by materialism in the Pavlovian sense , i am afraid .

How can ethics , morality , the sense of responsibility and accountability accounted for by the deterministic insane materialism ,come on ...let alone the rest .

Materialism is so full of incoherent paradoxical non-sense , so full of holes , inconsitencies , faslehood,so full of sh1t lol, sorry ,  that one is extremely perplexed how can intelligent people like yourselves believe in materialism ...Amazing .

Materialism is a fraud , a false distortion of reality , to say the least ...

It gotta be kicked out of all sciences and of all other human activity as well , the sooner the better , for the benefit and progress of science and for those  of all mankind .

Amazing ...

Use your minds , people .
« Last Edit: 04/12/2014 21:53:51 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Cheryl :

OCD Faulty but well established circuitry :

In the case of OCD patients , the brain sends deceptive messages to the mind that takes them for granted as real and acts upon them (The origin of those deceptive messages can be traced back to childhood or later history of OCD patients) .OCD patients can then learn how to make the necessary effort to ignore those intrusive compulsory thoughts by trying to refocus away from them, relabel them , revalue them for what they are ( Brain faulty circuitry without any real power or reality ), through Schwartz' four -steps therapy :


Quote : "...A major question now arises. How does the OCD patient focus attention away from the false messages transmitted by the faulty but well-established OCD circuit (“Count the cans in the pantry again!”) and toward the barely whispered “true” messages (“No, go feed the roses instead”) that are being transmitted by the still-frail circuits that therapy is coaxing into existence? Later on, once the “true” messages have been attended to and acted on for several weeks, they will probably have affected the gating of messages through the caudate and be ever-easier to act on.

 But early in therapy this process is weak, even nonexistent. It is not at all obvious how a patient heeds the healthy signal, which is just taking shape in his cortex and beginning to forge a new neural pathway through his caudate, and ignores the much more insistent one being generated incessantly by his firmly entrenched and blazingly hyperactive orbital frontal cortex–basal ganglia “error message” circuitry.

And once appropriate attention has been paid, how does he activate the motor circuitry that will take him away from the pantry and toward the rose garden? This last is an especially high hurdle, given that movement toward the pantry followed by obsessive counting has been the patient’s habitual response to the OCD urge for years. As a result, the maladaptive motor response has its own very well established brain circuitry in the basal ganglia." End quote.



Well, I question the assumption that the compulsive thoughts are generated by the brain, but the desire not to act on them is not. Based on what evidence, when his fMRIs show that both events are accompanied by activity in certain areas of the brain?

There is nothing more material or immaterial about either type of thought, or at least he hasn't shown how they differ.  One could also interpret his findings as the frontal cortex recognizing that the action is unnecessary or possibly even harmful and suppressing another area, and it likely gets easier with practice.

If I eat before going to the grocery store because I know I shop more sensibly when I am not hungry, is that necessarily "my immaterial will" or is it the result of learned past experience? How does one prove that my thoughts about eating healthy or saving money are more immaterial than my thoughts that a chocolate cake might be great for desert tonight? Or is it my prefrontal cortex recognizing that in order to accomplish a long term goal, I have to sacrifice a short term one, and I am better able to do that if I can reduce other brain activity (but I'm hungry!And that looks good!)  that might override my prefrontal cortex's instructions while in the grocery store?

Mathematician John Nash said in later years that he refused to let himself think about politics or religion, because those topics seemed to lead to delusional or paranoid ideas. Even if the initial thought about those subjects seemed reasonable and benign, he just wouldn't "go there" and would distract himself with another topic. I'm sure non-schizophrenics use the same technique with memories that are emotionally traumatic or depressing.

Individuals have mixed emotions or conflicting views about many things, even topics  that do not involve compulsions or urges. Which are the "true" thoughts or the immaterial ones? How does Schwartz know? And what, as he asks, determines the winners?

« Last Edit: 05/12/2014 01:05:12 by cheryl j »
 

Offline cheryl j

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I am talking here about the effort of attention that's the essence of volition .You have to make the difference between passive determined attention and the volitional one through effort thus .



Define effort, and explain why effort is somehow equivalent with immaterial.
 

Offline cheryl j

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Since you like assigning reading, Don, here's an article for you.

An Integrative Theory Of Prefrontal Cortex Function
http://matt.colorado.edu/teaching/highcog/readings/mc1.pdf

The article addresses such things as attention, selective attention, complex goal directed behavior, the PFC's two way connections to virtually all the cortical sensory systems, motor systems, and many subcortical structures,  convergence and integration of information from different areas of the brain, as well as feed back to those areas, top down control of processing, behavioral inhibition, and neuroplasticity.

"Abstract: The prefrontal cortex has long been suspected to play an important role in cognitive control, in the ability to orchestrate thought and action in accordance with internal goals. Its neural basis, however, has remained a mystery. Here, we propose that cognitive control stems from the active maintenance of patterns of activity in the prefrontal cortex that represent goals and the means to achieve them. They provide bias signals to other brain structures whose net effect is to guide the flow of activity along neural pathways that establish the proper mappings between inputs, internal
states, and outputs needed to perform a given task. We review neurophysiological, neurobiological, neuroimaging, and computational studies that support this theory and discuss its implications as well as further issues to be addressed."

Enjoy!

« Last Edit: 05/12/2014 03:23:48 by cheryl j »
 

Offline dlorde

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I am talking here about the effort of attention that's the essence of volition .
The sensation of volitional effort is associated with the executive under unusual load, maintaining a sharp focus of attention, with the objective of maximizing relevant neural activity and suppressing irrelevant or distracting activity. The sensation typically involves the same perceptual areas as involved in feedback from physical exertion. The intensity of the activity, and so the sensation of effort, will generally be related to the assessed value of the goal. This can't be maintained for long periods, but can be improved with practice, and changes in the connectivity of the relevant executive areas can be seen as a result. See, for example, Perception of effort and movement-related cortical potential during weight lifting.   

The effects of such intense deliberative (System 2) activity are stressful and often spill over into subconscious (System 1) stress responses, such as tensing of facial muscles, and physical displacement activities. These responses add real physical feedback to the sensation of volitional effort even when it is not involved in intense physical activity. Training can also reduce these stress responses by refining focus and reducing spurious 'leakage' of neural activity and so reducing the sensation of effort.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg445893#msg445893 date=1417731350]

Well, I question the assumption that the compulsive thoughts are generated by the brain, but the desire not to act on them is not. Based on what evidence, when his fMRIs show that both events are accompanied by activity in certain areas of the brain?

Well, the brain usually sends messages to the mind from both the outside physical world as well as from the inner biological one,and gets feedbacks from the mind in return ,or not  .OCD is a psychological and biological disorder that occurs thanks to faulty brain "circuitry " that sends false or deceptive messages to the mind that takes them for granted as real and acts upon them .OCD patients can learn about that psychological and biological nature of OCD symptoms , learn how to relabel them for what they are in reality (just disorders ) ,learn how not to attribute them to the self , how to refocus away from them on a regular basis through informed trained effort , by refocusing on healthier thoughts and actions , and learn how to revalue them for what they are (just faulty brain circuitry and psychological disorders without any real reality or power ,  that can be traced back to certain past events  of OCD patients ) .

Furthermore , volitional effort of attention is irreducible to neurophysiological processes .It is a mental force that triggers a physical one through its neuronal correlates. The latter are just the "circuitry " through which the mind works .

Brain activity cannot account for volitional effort of attention thus .The latter is irreducible to the former .

Quote
There is nothing more material or immaterial about either type of thought, or at least he hasn't shown how they differ.  One could also interpret his findings as the frontal cortex recognizing that the action is unnecessary or possibly even harmful and suppressing another area, and it likely gets easier with practice.

Show me a thought then . How does it look like ? How can brain activity produce thoughts ?

Via computation ? Come on, get real . Quantitative neuronal correlates can never produce qualitative thoughts ...

Show me how the conscious and aware smell of a rose , taste of a pizza lol, love , ...can rise from just physics and chemistry  : you can't , simply because they are irreducible to the latter , even though they have neuronal correlates and senses to the brain through which they express themselves....

Volitional mental effort of attention is irreducible to neurophysiology , once again ,as the mind is irreducible to brain activity .

Quote
If I eat before going to the grocery store because I know I shop more sensibly when I am not hungry, is that necessarily "my immaterial will" or is it the result of learned past experience? How does one prove that my thoughts about eating healthy or saving money are more immaterial than my thoughts that a chocolate cake might be great for desert tonight? Or is it my prefrontal cortex recognizing that in order to accomplish a long term goal, I have to sacrifice a short term one, and I am better able to do that if I can reduce other brain activity (but I'm hungry!And that looks good!)  that might override my prefrontal cortex's instructions while in the grocery store?

I am a bit tired now , so, i am not thinking really straight , trying my best though through my volitional effort of attention lol ,seriously .

The mind and its thoughts ...are irreducible to brain activity , even though they need the latter of course through which they work : the mind needs a healthy brain and body .

When you are hungry , your brain and body are deprived of their energy through food , so, they can't work properly as mediums for the mind ,that's why one can't really think quite well when hungry , because the latter urge is so vital and  can  overrides the rest .... a matter of self-preservation ,or survival priority .

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Mathematician John Nash said in later years that he refused to let himself think about politics or religion, because those topics seemed to lead to delusional or paranoid ideas. Even if the initial thought about those subjects seemed reasonable and benign, he just wouldn't "go there" and would distract himself with another topic. I'm sure non-schizophrenics use the same technique with memories that are emotionally traumatic or depressing.

Ironically enough , maths are "matters " of the mind : they use  abstract logic through numbers , symbols, concepts ...and have no physical reality , but they nevertheless underlie the laws of physics ;

Jonathan Shear is his book about consciousness talked about the fact that maths that are high abstractions of the mind are incompatible with materialism , but they were incorporated in science anyway only thanks to their practical inescapable use and relevance  .QM is even highly mathematical .

Materialism  is  the major example of schizophrenic views of the world : denies the very existence and relevance , not to mention causality , of the most important feature of man : the mental one .

Yet without the real and fundamental causal efficacy and reality + power of the mind , no beliefs or world views such as materialism would exist , no science would exist , no understanding of ourselves and the universe would exist , no ethics , no politics , no economics , no religions , no ideas , no imagination, no intellect , no creativity, no awareness  ...just total darkness .

Do you see now how schizophrenic materialism and materialists are , no offense ? , not to mention the inescapable intrinsic cognitive dissonance of materialism and materialists .

Not only that , on top of that , materialism does reduce the mental part of man and the universe to just physics and chemistry , while it is irreducible to the latter .

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Individuals have mixed emotions or conflicting views about many things, even topics  that do not involve compulsions or urges. Which are the "true" thoughts or the immaterial ones? How does Schwartz know? And what, as he asks, determines the winners?

Getting rid of intrusive thoughts or at least trying not to act upon them is what can pave the way for one to be...come oneself .

OCD symptoms ,for example, distort the notion of the self , get mixed up with it and even prevent it from expressing itself .




 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Offline DonQuichotte

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I am talking here about the effort of attention that's the essence of volition .You have to make the difference between passive determined attention and the volitional one through effort thus .



Define effort, and explain why effort is somehow equivalent with immaterial.

Have you ever been in a marathon ,for example ?
The brain and body would scream at you to stop , yet you continue running thanks to your volitional effort only .

I am really tired today , so, i can't focus well , i will just refer you to the following that's been backed by many empirical evidence :


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/books/review/willpower-by-roy-f-baumeister-and-john-tierney-book-review.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.amazon.com/Willpower-Rediscovering-Greatest-Human-Strength/dp/0143122231/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1417815629&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=wellpower

 

Offline DonQuichotte

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dlorde :

Sorry, i am very tired today .Talk to you tomorrow : You're wrong , big time :

You are not your brain , as the mind is no product of the brain , and hence mindful volitional effort of attention is irreducible to its neuronal correlates , no matter what you or other materialists would try to say on the subject .

You're real schizophrenics ,guys ,no offense,  with a lots of cognitive dissonance problems to deal with also .

See also this great book by Schwartz too : OCD patients can never overcome their disorder without the mindful volitional effort of attention ...that's irreducible to neurophysiology : you're all just confusing materialism with science :

http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Lock-Yourself-Obsessive-Compulsive-Behavior/dp/0060987111

« Last Edit: 05/12/2014 22:00:31 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline dlorde

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Well, the brain usually sends messages to the mind from both the outside physical world as well as from the inner biological one,and gets feedbacks from the mind in return ,or not  .
Lol! How can the physical brain 'send messages' outside the physical world? what does that even mean? where's your evidence?

It's unfalsifiable nonsense.
 

Offline dlorde

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You're real schizophrenics ,guys ,no offense,
Ah, no. We're the ones saying that the brain is an integrated physical whole and the mind is its activity; you're the one invoking a non-physical consciousness that magically interacts with the physical brain.

p.s. have you realised yet that the conscious collapse version of the Copenhagen interpretation is just billions of years of Many Worlds with eventual conscious interference? The wavefunction of the universe evolves, superposition on superposition, for billions of years (Many Worlds), until consciousness finally evolves and unexplainedly collapses it - quite unnecessarily (evolution of consciousness is a gradual process - at what point did it gain that ability?); far simpler to let the wavefunction continue evolving as it has done for billions of years, including the evolved consciousness in its superpositions - as in Many Worlds. That's why MW is preferred by Ockham's Razor.
 

Offline cheryl j

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Well, the brain usually sends messages to the mind from both the outside physical world as well as from the inner biological one,and gets feedbacks from the mind in return ,or not  .OCD is a psychological and biological disorder that occurs thanks to faulty brain "circuitry " that sends false or deceptive messages to the mind that takes them for granted as real and acts upon them .OCD patients can learn about that psychological and biological nature of OCD symptoms , learn how to relabel them for what they are in reality (just disorders ) ,learn how not to attribute them to the self , how to refocus away from them on a regular basis through informed trained effort , by refocusing on healthier thoughts and actions , and learn how to revalue them for what they are (just faulty brain circuitry and psychological disorders without any real reality or power ,  that can be traced back to certain past events  of OCD patients ) .

You would appear to be claiming that some thoughts (the deceptive ones, or the unhealthy ones) are the result of "faulty brain circuity" but other kinds of thoughts are the result of immaterial will. But for the past year you've been saying that no kind of thought, no kind of subjective experience, no experience involving qualia can be generated by the brain. Now suddenly certain kinds can?

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Furthermore , volitional effort of attention is irreducible to neurophysiological processes .It is a mental force that triggers a physical one through its neuronal correlates. The latter are just the "circuitry " through which the mind works .
Brain activity cannot account for volitional effort of attention thus .The latter is irreducible to the former .

Did you even bother to read the article about the prefrontal cortex that I posted? Any response to it?
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Show me a thought then . How does it look like ? How can brain activity produce thoughts ?
Well, evidently, it can, since the OCD thought "I need to wash my hands again", or "I must turn around three times when I walk out the door" wasn't produced by the immaterial will, so it had to be produced by something. How does circuitry itself produce a fully formed thought, irrational or otherwise, if you insist it can't produce thoughts at all?

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Quantitative neuronal correlates can never produce qualitative thoughts ...

You seemed to have painted yourself into a corner.

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When you are hungry , your brain and body are deprived of their energy through food , so, they can't work properly as mediums for the mind ,that's why one can't really think quite well when hungry , because the latter urge is so vital and  can  overrides the rest .... a matter of self-preservation ,or survival priority .
Hunger, and the taste of pizza, and pain from a marathon, and the smell of a rose that you mentioned earlier, are all subjective experiences with qualia, which you keep insisting are irreducible to brain activity. Now you're claiming those things are just urges, signals in the brain circuitry representing the body's needs or state, that the immaterial will can ignore. What's your basis now for saying the subjective experience of hunger or pain or "intrusive thoughts" is a material process of circuitry, and other kinds of thoughts are not?






« Last Edit: 06/12/2014 05:29:09 by cheryl j »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Show me a thought then . How does it look like ?

We describe consciousness as an "experience" an event in time and use all sorts of verbs to describe different processes associated with it, like thinking, feeling, believing, reasoning.

I could name any number of physical processes that are not "a thing" you can point to, and most people have no trouble recognizing that they are physically based, despite being events or interactions.

Why do you expect the neural code to physically resemble what it codes for? We have no trouble accepting that computers do not work that way, and language does not work that way, and DNA doesn't work that way, and musical recordings do not work that way. What is about brains that makes people insist that unless there are teeny, tiny replicas of a banana or kangaroo or Jennifer Aniston inside my neurons, then "a thought" has to be immaterial?

Is it possible that the first time I experience something, it is coded, and when I recall it, I re-experience it by playing back that code?
« Last Edit: 06/12/2014 07:12:19 by cheryl j »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Quote
author=dlorde link=topic=52526.msg445956#msg445956 date=1417824638]
Well, the brain usually sends messages to the mind from both the outside physical world as well as from the inner biological one,and gets feedbacks from the mind in return ,or not  .
Lol! How can the physical brain 'send messages' outside the physical world? what does that even mean? where's your evidence?

Well, consciousness and the mind are non-local,so.
Maybe they work through entanglement with the brain as well , who knows ?

As Popper used to say : physical-physical interaction is not the only kind of interaction .There is nothing that can make us assume that the non-physical cannot interact with the physical, and vice versa .


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It's unfalsifiable nonsense.

Don't think via your "gastric brain " , dlorde lol :

Ironically enough : QM can never be understood without reference to the mind .QM that's highly mathematical too .Maths as a product of the mind , remember , but maths  nevertheless underlies the laws of physics ...

How can you even make maths compatible with ...materialism ?:they are not ,as Jonathan Shear said in his consciousness explained book .

Explain to me the very origin of maths then : it is  a highly  abstract non-physical product of the mind .

Reminds me of a scientific article i have read ,during my teen -age , in a French scientific magazine (Science & Vie ) where they attempted to answer the question of the origin of maths and whether it is a product of nature or that of biology (As a mainstream materialist magazine , it cannot but a -priori assume that the mind is just brain activity , so ) : they couldn't link maths to nature , so, they tried to prove the biological origin (Absurd false materialistic premise that assumes that the mind is just neurophysiology, for which there is absolutely no empirical evidence whatsoever to support it, once again  ) ,they tried to prove the so-called biological origin of maths .They used clever reasoning in the sense that our minds tend to see or project regularities everywhere and that our reality is mainly a mental construct ...Long story .
« Last Edit: 06/12/2014 19:46:35 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=dlorde link=topic=52526.msg445960#msg445960 date=1417825316]
You're real schizophrenics ,guys ,no offense,
Ah, no. We're the ones saying that the brain is an integrated physical whole and the mind is its activity; you're the one invoking a non-physical consciousness that magically interacts with the physical brain.

Brain activity can never account for the mind ,awareness or consciousness (They can never rise from matter , let alone that they can be just a property of matter,like mass , charge  are ...since they are different in kind   from matter ,and hence they are irreducible to the latter ) , come on .When are you gonna grasp this simple fact , dlorde ?

How can you believe in such non-sense such as that of Graziano on the subject , in the sense that the mind is just a simulation computed by the brain , an illusory one that feels real though , a useful illusory survival strategy ,or in the materialistic belief assumption that consciousness can rise from the fundamental physical fields such as electromagnetism lol ...consciousness as a property of matter ( materialistic property dualism lol and materialistic panpsychism in disguise too )

Not to mention that the materialistic related production theory has been supported by no empirical evidence whatsoever = a big zero : correlations are no causations , needless to add .
You, guys, have been just confusing materialism with science ,and have been not able to see  the  'tree  " that hides the  "forest ": neuronal correlates of the mind are not identical with the mind : you have to let go of your impoverished and limited positivism too .

How can an intelligent scientist such as yourself believe in such insane absurd paradoxical materialistic non-sense?

Quote
p.s. have you realised yet that the conscious collapse version of the Copenhagen interpretation is just billions of years of Many Worlds with eventual conscious interference? The wavefunction of the universe evolves, superposition on superposition, for billions of years (Many Worlds), until consciousness finally evolves and unexplainedly collapses it - quite unnecessarily (evolution of consciousness is a gradual process - at what point did it gain that ability?); far simpler to let the wavefunction continue evolving as it has done for billions of years, including the evolved consciousness in its superpositions - as in Many Worlds. That's why MW is preferred by Ockham's Razor.

Quote :


"In the beginning there were only probabilities.
The universe could only come into existence if someone observed it. It does not matter that the observers turned up several billion years later.
The universe exists because we are aware of it."
End quote .
— Martin Rees
« Last Edit: 06/12/2014 20:11:14 by DonQuichotte »
 

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