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Author Topic: Major Bombshell : Manifesto For A Post-Materialistic Science :  (Read 187628 times)

Offline DonQuichotte

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Real Life Show : Caught on Candid Camera :

I wanted to surprise our dear friends here below ,so, i planted some undetectable mini cams all over  the place where they were gathering to celebrate the holidays ahead of time .

They were having some drinks after dinner.... ,while listening to music .It was a cozy and relaxed atmosphere , when Ethos suddenly told them to be quiet , because he heard someone on tv saying,on History channel, in the other room that a certain weird guy was so scared  of the inquisition  that he left (his ) the mind to the church ,and the physical world to science ."Weird" said Ethos : "How was science supposed to be studying the physical world without the mind then ? "

Ethos thought that Descartes was a clever guy indeed ,after all,  not a coward, but he wanted to discuss other more important matters with alancalverd .

So, he went back to the living room where the rest of our friends were having a drink and a laugh,while listening  to soft music in the background  .


Ethos : You know ,Alan .I think that QM can explain why Sint-Claus can be in many places at once .Seriously.

Alan : Cut the crap, man .You're a grown up man and you still believe in that crap.Science is not about whys .Oh, wait a minute .Your theory has predictive powers indeed .It can also be falsified .What a scientific mind you have , dear Ethos , unlike that silly mystic Don who  wants to introduce ghosts and spirits to science .Insane .Let me play some Jazz instead .

Ethos : Exactly what i thought, Alan , unless Sint Claus has a mind .Forget about that superstitious guy for a minute.

Alan : Bullocks .Define mind . Mind is irrelevant .Who needs one? .Physicists don't at least .The mind is just weird dances or oscillations vibrations of neurons .

Ethos : Yes , Alan ,but , look i have been thinking lately about QM .The brain is also made of atoms, electrons .....so, electrons might play a role in all that through those elusive calcium ions via the synapses .
You know , neurotransmitters and all the other stuff that's going on in the brain .It has been discovered that there is a lots of nanotechnology taking place in cells .

Alan : Look, i am only concerned with healing the sick through my hi-tech quantum devices .I am not  interested in that mind stuff, Ok, Ethos ?

Ethos : Ok, Alan,That was just a thought .Chill .Oh ,yeah, i just heard that Descartes left (his ) the mind to the church and the physical world to science .How was science supposed to study the physical world without the mind that was left to the church ?.
We have a problem here , Alan.

Alan : Really ? I don't see no problem in that .That's  what a good scientist should do indeed .Oh, crap .The mind is just a material process .
Let the church have fun with its imaginary immaterial spirit then .

Ethos : That's what honest science is all about indeed .Honest science ,something Don will never grasp.

dlorde : Cartesian dualistic dichotomy between mind and matter and that they are allegedly different separate from each other substances was a false one indeed anyway .Descartes was a clever guy though  .Our modern world is Cartesian ,despite the flaws of Cartesian  thought  .

Cheryl : Don still believes in that  dualism  lol I am making a painting about that . lol

dlorde : Don believes in another kind of dualism in fact, the poor guy  : mind and matter are 2 different substances mutually interacting with
each other via magic lol .He's so schizophrenic that he projects that on us , while stubbornly refusing to  learn from our posted prevailing materialistic wisdom .I think he's afraid to find out about the truth like i did .He's afraid of education, knowledge ,afraid of science ,afraid to discover that he has been living a big lie .I know , i have been there , you know .I can understand where he's coming from  , but he's got to try to muster enough
courage to face the music like i did .When you give him a link to a certain PDF that proves that  the perception of effort is just the conscious awareness of the motor command to the muscles that originates from the related brain's discharge ,he tells you :

How can the motor command be conscious or aware ? lol .He either did not understand what that PDF said .or his English needs some improvement . He was just tired and confused maybe .I think that what he actually wanted to say is that that experiment did not explain  how the conscious awareness of the motor command to the muscles  that originates in the brain 's related discharge ,arises in the first place to begin with .
What specific mechanism, if any , as David Cooper would put it (The latter seemed absorbed in some mechanistic dream of his ) in the system would be responsible for that conscious aware perception of effort ?

Well, that's just the illusory conscious aware perception of effort that feels real though , just a useful illusory  simulation computed by the brain exactly like Graziano said : no need for a ghost in the machine thus .Maybe is Don not evolved enough to grasp that simple fact .He's got to get rid of his old superstitions .He says sometimes that he's neither a dualist nor an idealist , weird ,he's not a materialist either lol , so what can we call him on the subject ? .

Science is all about dispelling dogmas , superstitions like that .
That's why we are here : to help people like Don to set themselves free from their  pre-scientific  superstitions.

Cheryl : Indeed, dlorde : magic .That's why i saved that related post of yours ,really.How can the immaterial mind interact with the physical brain ?: that's superstition.Who needs that Cartesian theater ? Regardless of whether the particular hypotheses we have outlined accurately
describe PFC function, they offer an example of how neurally plausible mechanisms can exhibit the properties of self-organization and self-regulation required to account for cognitive control without recourse to a “homunculus.”

Alan : what are you talking about , guys , wasting your time on rubbish .The mind is irrelevant .Who needs one? .Physicists don't at least .
What predictive power has the mind anyway? ,nothing .I have been asking this question to Don ,on many occasions .Don makes it sound as if science and ourselves have been run by the mind .Who needs the mind ?, even though maths are just products of the mind that happen to underlie the laws of physics : that's no conclusive proof for the power of the mind .Who needs the mind to "shut up and calculate " anyway ? .I don't .

I did tell him that QM is just simple algebra indeed (not done by the mind , mind you , but by deterministic mindless neurons lol ) ,and that there is no such thing as the wave/particle duality either .The latter is just in the mind .I see neither a problem regarding the latter , nor that there is what can be called the interpretation or measurement problem in QM  .There is no problem at all, i am telling him .

dlorde : "  Alan : the mind is just a property of matter (Just overlook this paradoxical materialistic property dualism and panpsychism in disguise ,Don is not here to hear about that anyway, he wouldn't understand  ) .
The mind just arises from electromagnetism, you know .Don says interesting things sometimes,otherwise he's a total waste of time  : That clever  guy Descartes was so scared  of the medieval christian inquisition 
that he left (his) the mind to the church ,and the physical world to
science . Was he out of his mind ?I don't think so.He knew exactly what he was doing .Who needs a mind to study the physical world scientifically or otherwise anyway ? :  deterministic mindless neurons do the job on our behalf ,without us having any say on the matter whatsoever ,so what 's the fuss all about ?
Cartesian dualistic  dichotomy between mind and body and that they are allegedly separate different substances was a false Cartesian legacy .There is no mind as such , no free will as such , just illusions ,evolutionary useful ones that feel real though as Graziano said .
The whole universe is deterministic , so .We're mindless machines , hardware run by software .

Ethos : " How was science supposed to study the physical world
without the mind then ? if Descartes left the mind to the church . How do you study science without your mind ? Note that i do believe both in the church and more in science."

dlorde : "Ethos , Are you out of your mind ? How can you believe in religion since all is matter,including the mind ,while believing in science too that says that religion or God were just created by the brain through evolution ?."

Ethos : " Why not , dlorde ? I suffer from multiple personality disorder .One of my personalities believes in religion,and the other one in materialistic science .They never meet each other though .So, what's your problem ? "

Cheryl : " You're right about that , Ethos .You can believe in both and be both at the same time :they are one anyway .
Ramachandran says that God is in the brain, so.I just don't understand that weird guy Don .Why does he feel the need or rather obsessive-compulsive  urge to introduce ghosts into the machine ? I will never understand him ."

Ethos : " Exactly , Cheryl .That's exactly my point .Don is mentally ill .My christian feeling of charity or compassion goes to him , especially during Christmas times .Poor lad , i told him to go see a shrink ,but i think i was too hard on him.
I shouldn't have said that .He might get worse as a result .I really feel guilty about that .I think i should make a confession to a priest ."

Cheryl : " You have already done that .See me as your priest Ramachandran says that it's healthy to confess anyway , to anyone .
It's all in the brain, you know ."

dlorde : " Oh, Cheryl, please .Stop misleading Ethos .I have no respect for such mysticism.I have been there , believe me .


Cheryl : dlorde , i meant that in a materialistic way , you know .

dlorde : Oh, materialistic mysticism, you mean .Ok, sorry ,I can live with that .Sean Caroll seems to have approved of that .

Alan : This is a science forum, guys .Show me some predictions  .

Ethos : I predict that Don is motivated by religious secret agendas .He's a danger to science .He threatens to send back science to the dark ages.

RD and PmbPhy who were late and just entered the living room overheard the latest sentence , then RD said : I will provide Don with some relevant links , like the ones that show that some damage to the brain can even alter consciousness significantly by changing the self-identity personality and more of the unfortunate persons who suffered such calamities .

dlorde replied to that by saying : I have already mentioned that to him , but he replied that that was just the result of faulty brain "circuitry " due either to biological or psychological damage or both ,  and that the mind has to work through its neuronal correlates anyway , the healthy ones at least ,so, any changes or damages of  the related neuronal correlates has to affect consciousness accordingly....something like that .

PmbPhy then said : well, life goes on .I see no science in what that guy has been saying anyway .I just went to that main link of this thread : just cranks there who talk about some non-materialistic stuff , no science .

David Cooper who remained silent all that time ,while he seemed to be absorbed in some contemplative  computer  computations of his , suddenly intervened by saying :
Guys , your materialistic inexplicable magic is no less magical than that of Don : where is the alleged mechanism in the system that makes it aware or conscious , that makes it self-aware or self-conscious ? .Unless you can show me where exactly in the system and what specific mechanism is involved in it that makes the system aware conscious or self aware self-conscious , there is no way i am gonna continue listening to this magic of yours .Then, he stormed out of the living room , but , before he exited the door , he added :
I will be following the progress, if any , of your debate , but i will not take any part in it anymore ,unless someone can show me the above .

The resulting intense silence that took possession of the place dictated its terms for quite some time , before our remaining friends in the living room went back to resuming their activity and talk , as if what David Cooper said or did has never taken place  .

............

"What is mind ? No matter
What is matter ? Never mind " T.H.Key

« Last Edit: 09/12/2014 20:46:07 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline cheryl j

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What are you talking about ? How do you know that ?Didn't we go through all that , on many occasions ?

Stapp based his quantum theory of consciousness on the non-mechanical instantaneous causal efficacy  of consciousness ,without any transfer of energy whatsoever ,on the physical brain through the observer effect interpretation of QM, at the level of calcium ions through the quantum Zeno effect ( Volitional effort of attention can maintain and sustain certain brain states in place , like when certain regularly observed or measured sub-atomic processes do not decay as a result , and thus remain in their initial state .) ,as well as through Hebb's law that states that neurons that fire together wire together : Schwartz ' non-materialist successful cognitive psychology or 4-steps therapy is based upon all the above and more , and it has been proved to work empirically : scanned brains of patients who underwent that therapy , before and after the therapy thus , showed significant changes in their brains accordingly through self-directed neuroplasticity .



Physicist Matthew Donald of Cambridge said in his critique of Stapp's theory:
  ”In Stapp (1993 §1.10), Stapp states that his theory “makes consciousness causally effective, yet it is fully compatible with all known laws of physics, including the law of conservation of energy.” Stapp does not justify this statement. In general, energy is not conserved in individual quantum jumps. Average total energy may be conserved if the projections involved commute with the global Hamiltonian. Leaving aside the commutation question, however, this would require that “causal effectiveness” produces the same averages as conventional quantum probabilities. In Stapp (1995),Stapp admits that, “No attempt is made here to show that the quantum statistical laws will hold for the aspects of the brain’s internal dynamics controlled by conscious thoughts”.


 Stapp’s whole theory seems to rest on the idea of consciousness using the Zeno effect to stack the quantum mechanical deck so to speak, to not simply collapse the wave, but to do it in a way that produces one result over another. How does this not violate conservation of energy?

What's more, Stapp does not even attempt to explain on what information the conscious agency bases it's choices, or how this information is maintained.
 

Offline RD

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... the brain is an ever changing theater thanks to neuropalsticity and self-directed neuroplasticity .
... the assumption that the mind and its memories ...are just brain activity , and hence  memories can be stored in the brain....is just a materialistic extension of the materialistic fundamental intrinsic claim that all is matter , including the mind = no empirical evidence .

Why is brain-growth and neuroplasticity necessary if the brain is a dumb terminal communicating with a remote cloud database ?.
 
I could see, hear, walk & remember some information when I was 5 years old , why did I need to grow a bigger brain as I became an adult ?.  Answer: because memories are stored in the brain, not remotely. If the data storage [memory] was in a remote location a child-sized brain would be more than sufficient to get through life.
« Last Edit: 09/12/2014 21:09:15 by RD »
 

Offline cheryl j

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4122207/
The Biological Function of Consciousness

 I found his final conclusion somewhat unsatisfying, but the discussion leading up to it was thought provoking, and there may be links to interesting studies.
And I think comparing conscious processes with unconscious ones, asking about the function of qualia, or what is special about processes or curcuits that generate qualia (since most don't) is a good approach.
 

Offline dlorde

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Don't be silly : Carter just used that specific Popper's quote in relation to the fact that not only likes can act upon like..
Silly? I asked for the specific context of that Popper quote, and you offered an extract from Carter's book that doesn't have a Popper quote in it - though you still seem to think it does - don't you understand what a 'quote' is?

Nevertheless, the Carter quote you posted about Popper agrees with the interactive property dualist interpretation I gave for the original Popper quote, not the substance dualism you were arguing, so thanks for the support  8D
 

Offline dlorde

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Real Life Show : Caught on Candid Camera :
...
dlorde : Cartesian dualistic dichotomy between mind and matter and that they are allegedly different separate from each other substances was a false one indeed anyway .Descartes was a clever guy though  .Our modern world is Cartesian ,despite the flaws of Cartesian  thought  .


I realise this is probably a childish prank, but I'd appreciate you not attributing fictitious quotes to me. I imagine the other members feel the same. False attribution of quotes is not funny or clever.


I would report it, but the moderators here appear to be blind, deaf, and dumb. You can babble to yourself from now on; I'm out.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Real Life Show : Caught on Candid Camera :

I wanted to surprise our dear friends here below ,so, i planted some undetectable mini cams all over  the place where they were gathering to celebrate the holidays ahead of time .



Sir Don.......I must confess that I did enjoy your little melodrama. Much better than traditional soap opera I must say.

What truly astounds me is that someone as intelligent as you respectfully are could have such a mental block to what is so very obvious to the rest of us. Nothing in this world, will ever be fully understood or documented without the measure of observation by means of material resource, which by the way includes the brain.

When you constantly refer to "the immaterial" please ask yourself how the immaterial reconciles with even quantum physics. Even the quantum realm requires attention to material objects such as the smallest atomic units of mass and charge. If we leave out material, what is left? Nothingness

Even the wave forms are disturbances in the fabric of space/time. And space/time can't ever be considered as immaterial.

How can you honestly reconcile this immaterial logic of yours with the material universe?


« Last Edit: 09/12/2014 22:45:44 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline dlorde

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Sir Don.......I must confess that I did enjoy your little melodrama. Much better than traditional soap opera I must say.

Dang it! you just had to go and spoil my melodramatic flounce out! have you no consideration?

But you do ask sensible questions - which won't be answered with anything approaching rational argument because there is no rational response.
 

Offline cheryl j

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http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098221200320X

This is a shorter article, more narrow in scope, the basic premise of which is "qualia can be analysed and characterised. Such an attempt is the first step towards scientific investigation of qualia." One functional aspect considered includes the degree of vividness of qualia for distinguishing between objects in the here and now, compared to objects in imagination.
Philosophers of consciousness treat qualia as if it were a subjective no man's land, but this article is a reminder that qualia is tightly linked to perception, which has been studied extensively. The article's examples of qualia fusion, metamers, and binding of perceptual cues are indicators of qualia's neurological basis. 
I liked the comment at the end, "Thomas Nagel's seemingly intractable question ‘what it's like to be a bat’ might be addressed by examining the microcircuits involved in echolocation. At least, we can quantitatively evaluate the similarity between the circuitry for the echolocation and that for vision or audition, allowing us to infer if qualia for echolocation would be closer to visual or auditory qualia."
 

Offline cheryl j

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Qualia and Spandrels:
an Engineering Perspective

http://www.infres.enst.fr/~jld/papers/Dessalles_01082301.pdf

Another functional look at qualia.
While people talk about qualia as being ineffable and holistic, this article argues that qualia does have a certain structure and orderliness (continuity, directionality, regularity, dynamic range) The concept of qualitative space is interesting. The article might not address the "feelyness" of qualia, but I still think it's role in enhancing discrimination and minimizing noise is significant. Also, a good argument against, or at least restricting, the inverted quale scenario, which I was always skeptical of.
I also found it ironic that an engineering approach seems ot offer a good response to both dualists like Chalmers, and and someone like Dennett.
 

Offline cheryl j

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... can you care to enlighten us about how such qualitative subjective memories that are a matter of qualitative subjective experiences , taste , preferences , aesthetics , morality , ethics ... can you tell us how they can be quantified or computed by the related or correlated quantitative brain activity ?

 Brain-damaged individuals can undergo a personality change,
becoming aggressive and/or libidinous
...

Quote from: caring.com
... some people with AD [ Alzheimer's Disease] do things that are totally uncharacteristic of personality before the disease. Swearing (yes, even precious sweet elderly ladies!), spitting, becoming socially inept and impulsive with inappropriate words or actions, and sexual advances may appear for some folks.
https://www.caring.com/questions/dementia-and-personality-change

 So their moral judgement has been modified by deactivation [destruction] of part of their brain .

And of course persons suffering from dementia lose their memory. 


We've talked about disease and disorder changing not only function and ability but Don sees it as being like a broken radio that no longer receives or transmits the true, nonlocal consciousness. Aside from lack of evidence for a receiver model, it's hard to explain changes to personality or morality, which Don also sees as attributes of the immaterial will. It's even harder to explain changes to qualitative conscious experience itself, as reported by the individual with a neurological disorder. (You aren't really confused, hallucinating, or having trouble remembering things, you only think you are. The real you is somewhere, doing just fine.)

But one thing we haven't talked about much is development which you also referred to. And it's interesting because it highlights not only changes in structure, plasticity, but the influence of learning and experience. Why should the expression of the immaterial mind change so predictably with physiological development?
« Last Edit: 10/12/2014 15:13:47 by cheryl j »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Quote
author=Ethos_ link=topic=52526.msg446260#msg446260 date=1418164079]
Real Life Show : Caught on Candid Camera :

I wanted to surprise our dear friends here below ,so, i planted some undetectable mini cams all over  the place where they were gathering to celebrate the holidays ahead of time .

Sir Don.......I must confess that I did enjoy your little melodrama. Much better than traditional soap opera I must say.

Sir Ethos : I thought so .No need to confess once again .You have already done that lol .Good  to know that you have a sense of humour. Thanks .


Quote
What truly astounds me is that someone as intelligent as you respectfully are could have such a mental block to what is so very obvious to the rest of us. Nothing in this world, will ever be fully understood or documented without the measure of observation by means of material resource, which by the way includes the brain.

Thanks, man . Anyway , science is not about the right of the majority though : it would have to take only one single scientist to turn science upside down .
The whole materialistic mainstream scientific community is simply wrong , big time, you have no idea , wrong about equating science with materialism at least , and hence the mind cannot be in the brain or brain activity , cannot be a material process...memories cannot be stored in the brain ...

Furthermore , empirical  evidence can be inferred ,indirectly, from other empirical evidence , like the fact that consciousness is a non-physical and non-local process ,a fact that can be inferred , indirectly , form other related empirical evidence on the subject .

Quote
When you constantly refer to "the immaterial" please ask yourself how the immaterial reconciles with even quantum physics. Even the quantum realm requires attention to material objects such as the smallest atomic units of mass and charge. If we leave out material, what is left? Nothingness

Ironically enough, QM can never be understood without reference to the mind ,simply because they are inseparably and inescapably intertwined with each other ,or as a prominent physicist said ,or in words to that same effect at least :

Will it not turn out that ,with the development of science , any progress in the study of the universe will be impossible without that in the study of consciousness ...since both are inseparably linked to each other .

Quote
Even the wave forms are disturbances in the fabric of space/time. And space/time can't ever be considered as immaterial.

See above . The very notions of space and time , space -time , gravity , mass,time , causality , reality , locality  ...would be turned on their heads ,if you only would take a look at them from the observer effect interpretation of QM where consciousness plays a central role in shaping the physical reality ,while getting influenced by the latter .
The mind of the observer cannot be separated from the observed so-called objective reality .There is no such thing as the independent observer or the independent observed objective reality ,since both are inseparable from each other ,as the mind cannot but exert a causal effect on its physical environment  ,while being influenced by the latter : our "reality " is just the product of that mutual interaction between our minds and our environments through our senses and brains and beyond .There is also what can be called extra-sensory perception, but that's another story .

Quote
How can you honestly reconcile this immaterial logic of yours with the material universe?

The universe is not   exclusively material or physical , as materialism wanna make you believe it is ,and hence materialism is false .The universe is also mental and the latter is irreducible to matter .
Better still : the mental is the key component or key 'building block " of the universe , a primary one at that , that is , no wonder that 0,000000...1 % of the universe , including ourselves thus , is "matter "....The latter is almost nothing in the universe: almost insignificant and irrelevant  .The whole population of earth can be contained within  an apple ,for example , if one would take all that empty space out of it .
« Last Edit: 10/12/2014 17:49:03 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=RD link=topic=52526.msg446249#msg446249 date=1418156225]
... the brain is an ever changing theater thanks to neuropalsticity and self-directed neuroplasticity .
... the assumption that the mind and its memories ...are just brain activity , and hence  memories can be stored in the brain....is just a materialistic extension of the materialistic fundamental intrinsic claim that all is matter , including the mind = no empirical evidence .

Why is brain-growth and neuroplasticity necessary if the brain is a dumb terminal communicating with a remote cloud database ?.

Neuroplasticity is a vital must that has to cope with the ever changing experiences , with the ever changing storm of information or whatever both from the outside world and from within ...with learning new things , new skills ....to cope with the ever changing environment .

A kid's brain can't cope with growing up, simply put , unless neuroplasticity is there to change it through learning , experience and more .

You're applying the computer model to consciousness , that's why you can't think outside of that box .

The brain is no computer or machine , it does not code for anything , does not store anything , does not compute anything : that's just the projection of materialists .
Quote
 
I could see, hear, walk & remember some information when I was 5 years old , why did I need to grow a bigger brain as I became an adult ?.  Answer: because memories are stored in the brain, not remotely. If the data storage [memory] was in a remote location a child-sized brain would be more than sufficient to get through life.

It's exactly the other way around : makes no biological sense that memories can be stored in the brain .There has to be a non-physical and non-local "place " for memories thus .


Excerpt From " The Biology of Belief , Unleashing the Power of Consciousness ... " By Biologist Bruce Lipton, Chapter 6 : "Growth and Protection " : 

Quote : "Evolution has provided us with lots of survival mechanisms. They can be roughly divided into two functional categories: growth and protection. These growth and protection mechanisms are the fundamental behaviors required for an organism to survive. I’m sure you know how important it is to protect yourself. You may not realize though that growth is vitally important for your survival as well —even if you’re an adult who has reached your full height. Every day billions of cells in your body wear out and need to be replaced. For example, the entire cellular lining of your gut is replaced every seventy-two hours. In order to maintain this continuous turnover of cells, your body needs to expend a significant amount of energy daily.

By now you won’t be surprised to learn that I first became aware of how important growth and protection behaviors are in the laboratory where my observations of single cells have so often led me to insights about the multicellular human body. When I was cloning human endothelial cells, they retreated from toxins that I introduced into the culture dish, just as humans retreat from mountain lions and muggers in dark alleys. They also gravitated to nutrients, just as humans gravitate to breakfast, lunch, dinner, and love. These opposing movements define the two basic cellular responses to environmental stimuli. Gravitating to a life-sustaining signal, such as nutrients, characterizes a growth response; moving away from threatening signals, such as toxins, characterizes a protection response. It must also be noted that some environmental stimuli are neutral; they provoke neither a growth nor a protection response.

My research at Stanford showed that these growth/protection behaviors are also essential for the survival of multicellular organisms such as humans. But there is a catch to these opposing survival mechanisms that have evolved over billions of years. It turns out that the mechanisms that support growth and protection cannot operate optimally at the same time. In other words, cells cannot simultaneously move forward and backward. The human blood vessel cells I studied at Stanford exhibited one microscopic anatomy for providing nutrition and a completely different microscopic anatomy for providing a protection response. What they couldn’t do was exhibit both configurations at the same time. (Lipton, et al, 1991).

In a response similar to that displayed by cells, humans unavoidably restrict their growth behaviors when they shift into a protective mode. If you’re running from a mountain lion, it’s not a good idea to expend energy on growth. In order to survive—that is, escape the lion—you summon all your energy for your fight or flight response. Redistributing energy reserves to fuel the protection response inevitably results in a curtailment of growth.

In addition to diverting energy to support the tissues and organs needed for the protection response, there is an additional reason why growth is inhibited. Growth processes require an open exchange between an organism and its environment. For example, food is taken in and waste products are excreted. However, protection requires a closing down of the system to wall the organism off from the perceived threat.

Inhibiting growth processes is also debilitating in that growth is a process that not only expends energy but is also required to produce energy. Consequently, a sustained protection response inhibits the creation of life-sustaining energy. The longer you stay in protection, the more you compromise your growth. In fact, you can shut down growth processes so completely that it becomes a truism that you can be “scared to death.”

Thankfully, most of us don’t get to the “scared to death” point. Unlike single cells, the growth/protection response in multicellular organisms is not an either/or proposition—not all of our 50 trillion cells have to be in growth or protection mode at the same time. The proportion of cells in a protection response depends on the severity of the perceived threats. You can survive while under stress from these threats but chronic inhibition of growth mechanisms severely compromises your vitality. It is also important to note that to fully experience your vitality it takes more than just getting rid of life’s stressors. In a growth-protection continuum, eliminating the stressors only puts you at the neutral point in the range. To fully thrive, we must not only eliminate the stressors but also actively seek joyful, loving, fulfilling lives that stimulate growth processes."End Quote .
« Last Edit: 10/12/2014 18:14:22 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Excerpt From "The Biology of Belief ..." By Biologist Bruce Lipton , Chapter 5 : "Biology and Belief " , " Mind over Body " :


Quote :"Let’s review what we know about cells. We learned in earlier chapters that the functions of cells are directly derived from the movements of their protein “gears.” The movement generated by assemblies of proteins provides the physiologic functions that enable life. While proteins are the physical building blocks, complementary environmental signals are required to animate their movement. The interface between environmental signals and behavior-producing cytoplasmic proteins is the cell’s membrane. The membrane receives stimuli and then engages the appropriate, life-sustaining cellular responses.

 The cell membrane operates as the cell’s “brain.” Integral membrane receptor-effector proteins (IMPs) are the fundamental physical subunits of the cellular brain’s “intelligence” mechanism. By functional definition, these protein complexes are “perception switches” that link reception of environmental stimuli to response-generating protein pathways.
Cells generally respond to an assortment of very basic “perceptions” of what’s going on in their world.

 Such perceptions include whether things like potassium, calcium, oxygen, glucose, histamine, estrogen, toxins, light, or any number of other stimuli are present in their immediate environment. The simultaneous interactions of tens of thousands of reflexive perception switches in the membrane, each directly reading an individual environmental signal, collectively create the complex behavior of a living cell.

For the first three billion years of life on this planet, the biosphere consisted of free-living single cells such as bacteria, algae, and protozoans. While we have traditionally considered such life forms as solitary individuals, we are now aware that signal molecules used by individual cells to regulate their own physiologic functions, when released into the environment, also influence the behavior of other organisms.

Signals released into the environment allow for a coordination of behavior among a dispersed population of unicellular organisms. Secreting signal molecules into the environment enhanced the survival of single cells by providing them with the opportunity to live as a primitive “community.”
The single-celled slime mold amoebas provide an example of how signaling molecules lead to community. These amoebas live a solitary existence in the soil foraging for food.

 When available food in the environment is consumed, the cells synthesize an excess amount of a metabolic by-product called cyclic AMP (cAMP), much of which is released into the environment. The concentration of the released cAMP builds in the environment as other amoebas face starvation. When secreted cAMP signal molecules bind to cAMP-receptors on the cell membranes of other slime mold amoebas, it signals them to activate a swarming behavior wherein the amoebas congregate and form a large multicellular “slug.” The slug community is the reproductive stage of slime mold. During the “famine” period, the community of aging cells shares their DNA and creates the next generation of offspring.

The new amoebas hibernate as inactive spores. When more food is available, the food molecules act as a signal to break the hibernation, releasing a new population of single cells to start the cycle over again.
The point is that single-celled organisms actually live in a community when they share their “awareness” and coordinate their behaviors by releasing “signal” molecules into the environment.
Cyclic AMP was one of evolution’s earliest forms of secreted regulatory signals that controls cell behavior.

 The fundamental human signal molecules (e.g., hormones, neuropeptides, cytokines, growth factors) that regulate our own cellular communities were once thought to have arisen with the appearance of complex multicellular life forms. However, recent research has revealed that primitive single-celled organisms were already using these “human” signal molecules in the earliest stages of evolution. Through evolution, cells maximized the number of IMP “awareness” proteins their membranes could hold. To acquire more awareness, and therefore increase their probability of surviving, cells started to assemble, first into simple colonies and later into highly organized cellular communities.

As described earlier, the physiologic functions of multicellular organisms are parceled out to specialized communities of cells forming the body’s tissues and organs. In communal organizations, the cell membrane’s intelligence processing is carried out by the specialized cells of the organism’s nervous and immune systems.
It was only 700 million years ago, recent in regard to the time frame of life on this planet, when single cells found it advantageous to join together in tightly knit multicellular communities, organizations we recognize as animals and plants.

The same coordinating signal molecules used by free-living cells were used in these newly evolved closed communities. By tightly regulating the release and distribution of these function-controlling signal molecules, the community of cells would be able to coordinate their functions and act as a single life form. In the more primitive multicellular organisms, those without specialized nervous systems, the flow of these signal molecules within the community provided an elementary “mind,” represented by the coordinating information shared by every cell. In such organisms, each cell directly read environmental cues and personally adjusted its own behavior.
However, when cells came together in community, a new politic had to be established.

In community, each cell cannot act as an independent agent that does whatever it wants. The term “community” implies that all of its members commit to a common plan of action. In multicellular animals, individual cells may “see” the local environment outside of their own “skin,” but they may
have no awareness of what is going on in more distant environments, especially those outside of the whole organism itself.

 Can a liver cell buried in your viscera, responding to its local environmental signals, make an informed response regarding the consequence of a mugger that jumps into your environment? The complex behavior controls needed to ensure a multicellular organization’s survival are incorporated within its centralized information processing system.
As more complex animals evolved, specialized cells took over the job of monitoring and organizing the flow of the behavior regulating signal molecules. These cells provided a distributed nerve network and central information processor, a brain.

The brain’s function is to coordinate the dialogue of signal molecules within the community. Consequently, in a community of cells, each cell must acquiesce control to the informed decisions of its awareness authority, the brain. The brain controls the behavior of the body’s cells. This is a very important point to consider as we blame the cells of our organs and tissues for the health issues we experience in our lives."End quote .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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"How the Mind Controls the Body"

From the same above mentioned source and chapter :


Quote : "My insights into how beliefs control biology are grounded in my studies of cloned endothelial cells,
the cells that line the blood vessels. The endothelial cells I grew in culture monitor their world closely and change their behavior based on information they pick up from the environment. When I provided nutrients, the cells would gravitate toward those nutrients with the cellular equivalent of open arms.

When I created a toxic environment, the cultured cells would retreat from the stimulus in an effort to wall themselves off from the noxious agents. My research focused on the membrane perception switches that controlled the shift from one behavior to the other.

The primary switch I was studying has a protein receptor that responds to histamine, a molecule that the body uses in a way that is equivalent to a local emergency alarm. I found that there are two varieties of switches, H1 and H2, that respond to the same histamine signal. When activated, switches with H1 histamine receptors evoke a protection response, the type of behavior revealed by cells in toxin-containing culture dishes. Switches containing H2 histamine receptors evoke a growth response to histamine, similar to the behavior of cells cultured in the presence of nutrients.

I subsequently learned that the body’s system-wide emergency response signal, adrenaline, also has switches sporting two different adrenaline-sensing receptors, called alpha and beta. The adrenaline receptors provoked the exact same cell behaviors as those elicited by histamine. When the adrenal alpha-receptor is part of an IMP switch, it provokes a protection response when adrenaline is perceived. When the beta-receptor is part of the switch, the same adrenaline signal activates a growth response. (Lipton, et al, 1992).

All that was interesting, but the most exciting finding was when I simultaneously introduced both histamine and adrenaline into my tissue cultures. I found that adrenaline signals, released by the central nervous system, override the influence of histamine signals that are produced locally.

 This is where the politics of the community described earlier come in to play. Suppose you’re working in a bank. The branch manager gives you an order. The CEO walks in and gives you the opposite order.
Which order would you follow? If you want to keep your job you’ll snap to the CEO’s order. There is a similar priority built into our biology, which requires cells to follow instructions from the head honcho nervous system, even if those signals are in conflict with local stimuli.

I was excited by my experiments because I believed that they revealed on the single-cell level a truth for multicellular organisms—that the mind (acting via the central nervous system’s adrenaline) overrides the body (acting via the local histamine signal). I wanted to spell out the implications of my experiments in my research paper, but my colleagues almost died from apoplexy at the notion of injecting the body-mind connection into a paper about cell biology. So I put in a cryptic comment about understanding the significance of the study, but I couldn’t say what the significance was.

 My colleagues did not want me to include these implications of my research because the mind is not an acceptable biological concept. Bioscientists are conventional Newtonians—if it isn’t matter, it doesn’t count. The “mind” is a non-localized energy and therefore is not relevant to materialistic biology. Unfortunately, that perception is a “belief” that has been proven to be patently incorrect in a quantum mechanical universe!" End quote .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=RD link=topic=52526.msg446249#msg446249 date=1418156225]
... the brain is an ever changing theater thanks to neuropalsticity and self-directed neuroplasticity .
... the assumption that the mind and its memories ...are just brain activity , and hence  memories can be stored in the brain....is just a materialistic extension of the materialistic fundamental intrinsic claim that all is matter , including the mind = no empirical evidence .

Why is brain-growth and neuroplasticity necessary if the brain is a dumb terminal communicating with a remote cloud database ?.

Neuroplasticity is a vital must that has to cope with the ever changing experiences , with the ever changing storm of information or whatever both from the outside world and from within ...with learning new things , new skills ....to cope with the ever changing environment .

A kid's brain can't cope with growing up, simply put , unless neuroplasticity is there to change it through learning , experience and more .

You're applying the computer model to consciousness , that's why you can't think outside of that box .

The brain is no computer or machine , it does not code for anything , does not store anything , does not compute anything : that's just the projection of materialists .
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I could see, hear, walk & remember some information when I was 5 years old , why did I need to grow a bigger brain as I became an adult ?.  Answer: because memories are stored in the brain, not remotely. If the data storage [memory] was in a remote location a child-sized brain would be more than sufficient to get through life.

It's exactly the other way around : makes no biological sense that memories can be stored in the brain .There has to be a non-physical and non-local "place " for memories thus .


Excerpt From " The Biology of Belief , Unleashing the Power of Consciousness ... " By Biologist Bruce Lipton, Chapter 6 : "Growth and Protection " : 

Quote : "Evolution has provided us with lots of survival mechanisms. They can be roughly divided into two functional categories: growth and protection. These growth and protection mechanisms are the fundamental behaviors required for an organism to survive. I’m sure you know how important it is to protect yourself. You may not realize though that growth is vitally important for your survival as well —even if you’re an adult who has reached your full height. Every day billions of cells in your body wear out and need to be replaced. For example, the entire cellular lining of your gut is replaced every seventy-two hours. In order to maintain this continuous turnover of cells, your body needs to expend a significant amount of energy daily.

By now you won’t be surprised to learn that I first became aware of how important growth and protection behaviors are in the laboratory where my observations of single cells have so often led me to insights about the multicellular human body. When I was cloning human endothelial cells, they retreated from toxins that I introduced into the culture dish, just as humans retreat from mountain lions and muggers in dark alleys. They also gravitated to nutrients, just as humans gravitate to breakfast, lunch, dinner, and love. These opposing movements define the two basic cellular responses to environmental stimuli. Gravitating to a life-sustaining signal, such as nutrients, characterizes a growth response; moving away from threatening signals, such as toxins, characterizes a protection response. It must also be noted that some environmental stimuli are neutral; they provoke neither a growth nor a protection response.

My research at Stanford showed that these growth/protection behaviors are also essential for the survival of multicellular organisms such as humans. But there is a catch to these opposing survival mechanisms that have evolved over billions of years. It turns out that the mechanisms that support growth and protection cannot operate optimally at the same time. In other words, cells cannot simultaneously move forward and backward. The human blood vessel cells I studied at Stanford exhibited one microscopic anatomy for providing nutrition and a completely different microscopic anatomy for providing a protection response. What they couldn’t do was exhibit both configurations at the same time. (Lipton, et al, 1991).

In a response similar to that displayed by cells, humans unavoidably restrict their growth behaviors when they shift into a protective mode. If you’re running from a mountain lion, it’s not a good idea to expend energy on growth. In order to survive—that is, escape the lion—you summon all your energy for your fight or flight response. Redistributing energy reserves to fuel the protection response inevitably results in a curtailment of growth.

In addition to diverting energy to support the tissues and organs needed for the protection response, there is an additional reason why growth is inhibited. Growth processes require an open exchange between an organism and its environment. For example, food is taken in and waste products are excreted. However, protection requires a closing down of the system to wall the organism off from the perceived threat.

Inhibiting growth processes is also debilitating in that growth is a process that not only expends energy but is also required to produce energy. Consequently, a sustained protection response inhibits the creation of life-sustaining energy. The longer you stay in protection, the more you compromise your growth. In fact, you can shut down growth processes so completely that it becomes a truism that you can be “scared to death.”

Thankfully, most of us don’t get to the “scared to death” point. Unlike single cells, the growth/protection response in multicellular organisms is not an either/or proposition—not all of our 50 trillion cells have to be in growth or protection mode at the same time. The proportion of cells in a protection response depends on the severity of the perceived threats. You can survive while under stress from these threats but chronic inhibition of growth mechanisms severely compromises your vitality. It is also important to note that to fully experience your vitality it takes more than just getting rid of life’s stressors. In a growth-protection continuum, eliminating the stressors only puts you at the neutral point in the range. To fully thrive, we must not only eliminate the stressors but also actively seek joyful, loving, fulfilling lives that stimulate growth processes."End Quote .
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=Ethos_ link=topic=52526.msg446260#msg446260 date=1418164079]
Real Life Show : Caught on Candid Camera :

I wanted to surprise our dear friends here below ,so, i planted some undetectable mini cams all over  the place where they were gathering to celebrate the holidays ahead of time .

Sir Don.......I must confess that I did enjoy your little melodrama. Much better than traditional soap opera I must say.

Sir Ethos : I thought so .No need to confess once again .You have already done that lol .Good  to know that you have a sense of humour. Thanks .


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What truly astounds me is that someone as intelligent as you respectfully are could have such a mental block to what is so very obvious to the rest of us. Nothing in this world, will ever be fully understood or documented without the measure of observation by means of material resource, which by the way includes the brain.

Thanks, man . Anyway , science is not about the right of the majority though : it would have to take only one single scientist to turn science upside down .
The whole materialistic mainstream scientific community is simply wrong , big time, you have no idea , wrong about equating science with materialism at least , and hence the mind cannot be in the brain or brain activity , cannot be a material process...memories cannot be stored in the brain ...

Furthermore , empirical  evidence can be inferred ,indirectly, from other empirical evidence , like the fact that consciousness is a non-physical and non-local process ,a fact that can be inferred , indirectly , form other related empirical evidence on the subject .

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When you constantly refer to "the immaterial" please ask yourself how the immaterial reconciles with even quantum physics. Even the quantum realm requires attention to material objects such as the smallest atomic units of mass and charge. If we leave out material, what is left? Nothingness

Ironically enough, QM can never be understood without reference to the mind ,simply because they are inseparably and inescapably intertwined with each other ,or as a prominent physicist said ,or in words to that same effect at least :

Will it not turn out that ,with the development of science , any progress in the study of the universe will be impossible without that in the study of consciousness ...since both are inseparably linked to each other .

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Even the wave forms are disturbances in the fabric of space/time. And space/time can't ever be considered as immaterial.

See above . The very notions of space and time , space -time , gravity , mass,time , causality , reality , locality  ...would be turned on their heads ,if you only would take a look at them from the observer effect interpretation of QM where consciousness plays a central role in shaping the physical reality ,while getting influenced by the latter .
The mind of the observer cannot be separated from the observed so-called objective reality .There is no such thing as the independent observer or the independent observed objective reality ,since both are inseparable from each other ,as the mind cannot but exert a causal effect on its physical environment  ,while being influenced by the latter : our "reality " is just the product of that mutual interaction between our minds and our environments through our senses and brains and beyond .There is also what can be called extra-sensory perception, but that's another story .

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How can you honestly reconcile this immaterial logic of yours with the material universe?

The universe is not   exclusively material or physical , as materialism wanna make you believe it is ,and hence materialism is false .The universe is also mental and the latter is irreducible to matter .
Better still : the mental is the key component or key 'building block " of the universe , a primary one at that , that is , no wonder that 0,000000...1 % of the universe , including ourselves thus , is "matter "....The latter is almost nothing in the universe: almost insignificant and irrelevant  .The whole population of earth can be contained within  an apple ,for example , if one would take all that empty space out of it .
 

Offline alancalverd

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the mental is the key component or key 'building block " of the universe , a primary one at that

so what does it predicate (never mind predict) that isn't consistent with the material? 
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg446296#msg446296 date=1418224294]
... can you care to enlighten us about how such qualitative subjective memories that are a matter of qualitative subjective experiences , taste , preferences , aesthetics , morality , ethics ... can you tell us how they can be quantified or computed by the related or correlated quantitative brain activity ?

 Brain-damaged individuals can undergo a personality change,
becoming aggressive and/or libidinous
...

Quote from: caring.com
... some people with AD [ Alzheimer's Disease] do things that are totally uncharacteristic of personality before the disease. Swearing (yes, even precious sweet elderly ladies!), spitting, becoming socially inept and impulsive with inappropriate words or actions, and sexual advances may appear for some folks.
https://www.caring.com/questions/dementia-and-personality-change

 So their moral judgement has been modified by deactivation [destruction] of part of their brain .

And of course persons suffering from dementia lose their memory. 


We've talked about disease and disorder changing not only function and ability but Don sees it as being like a broken radio that no longer receives or transmits the true, nonlocal consciousness. Aside from lack of evidence for a receiver model, it's hard to explain changes to personality or morality, which Don also sees as attributes of the immaterial will. It's even harder to explain changes to qualitative conscious experience itself, as reported by the individual with a neurological disorder. (You aren't really confused, hallucinating, or having trouble remembering things, you only think you are. The real you is somewhere, doing just fine.)

It's hard to explain the qualitative personality and its related morality , memory and other changes that happen to people afflicted with dementia ,Alzheimer ...but that's no conclusive evidence for the materialistic intrinsic belief assumption that consciousness is just brain activity .

Well, consciousness has to work through its brain , so, any damage or changes to the related neuronal correlates can trigger changes in consciousness accordingly, and vice versa . .

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But one thing we haven't talked about much is development which you also referred to. And it's interesting because it highlights not only changes in structure, plasticity, but the influence of learning and experience. Why should the expression of the immaterial mind change so predictably with physiological development?

See above the excerpts from a certain book of biologist Bruce Lipton concerning growth and protection on the subject and more .

When an individual grows up , he/she undergoes many experiences , learns many things and skills, is exposed to many information from the outside as well as from the inside worlds , exposed to many psychological and other challenges ,traumas ....so, his/her brain and the rest of his /her biology must cope with all that through biological changes , through neuroplasticity or through self-directed neuroplasticity ...
« Last Edit: 10/12/2014 19:02:24 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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the mental is the key component or key 'building block " of the universe , a primary one at that

so what does it predicate (never mind predict) that isn't consistent with the material?

Predict lol : This has become your signature , Alan, together with ...Jazz .

It predicates that the mind is more primordial and powerful than "matter "  can ever be (0,000000...1 % of the universe , including ourselves, is made of "matter " = the latter is the one that's almost  insignificant and almost irrelevant , not the mind , even though matter and mind are inseparable , in this life at least. ): the mind plays a central role in shaping its environment,including the brain and body ,  ,and the mind gets influenced by its "external " environment as well , including by the brain and body  , unlike that materialistic intrinsic absurd unscientific paradoxical belief assumption that the mind is just an irrelevant side effect or by-product of evolution without any causal effects on the physical reality , including on the brain , and that the mind is just a simulation , an evolutionary  illusory useful one computed by the brain , a simulation that feels real though = bullshit .

Without your mind , the features of which that do not obey the laws of physics at least , you wouldn't have been able to be conscious or aware , let alone become a physicist who likes to play or listen to Jazz lol

Jazz is too sad by the way , Alan, the blues at least  . How come you like it ? Jazz that's an African -American product .
« Last Edit: 10/12/2014 19:39:43 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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There are many theories of consciousness , some are  more or less plausible or scientific than the rest   : Take your pick :
I think that materialistic theories of consciousness must be discarded and eliminated totally ,since they all assume a -priori that consciousness is just the product of brain activity , a materialistic intrinsic  assumption that's false and that has been supported by a big zero empirical evidence: Looking for consciousness or the mind in the brain is a dead -end street  .
We're still almost in total darkness regarding how the mind works through the brain though .
Better still : we still do not know much about the brain itself , let alone about the mind :

Journal of Consciousness Studies :

http://www.imprint.co.uk/jcs.html
« Last Edit: 10/12/2014 20:17:38 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline Ethos_

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Will it not turn out that ,with the development of science , any progress in the study of the universe will be impossible without that in the study of consciousness ...since both are inseparably linked to each other .


Are you suggesting that consciousness and the universe can't exist one without the other? If that is your position, I suggest that you consider the following question:

Where was consciousness at the Big Bang event. And we really don't need to go clear back to this time in history. Where was consciousness before the earth came into being? And even later in the historical record, where was consciousness before life first appeared upon this planet?

I suggest that consciousness is dependent upon the universal environment which gave us the material brain which developed over many millions of years. But the material environment was here long before that conscious intelligence developed. So consciousness and the universe were not inseparably linked from the beginning. Consciousness developed later in this story.

If you have evidence to prove otherwise, please present it to us.
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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author=Ethos_ link=topic=52526.msg446329#msg446329 date=1418243145]

Will it not turn out that ,with the development of science , any progress in the study of the universe will be impossible without that in the study of consciousness ...since both are inseparably linked to each other .


Are you suggesting that consciousness and the universe can't exist one without the other?


Descartes left his and our minds to the church , remember , and the physical universe to science : how are we supposed to study the former through the latter without our minds lol

I am using this joke to illustrate the fact that materialism also says that the mind has no causal effects on the physical reality , let alone on the brain .Yet , without the causal efficacy of the mind on the physical brain and body , no science would exist , let alone the rest .

All i am saying is that since scientists, who  are also a part of this universe ,cannot but study the universe through their consciousnesses via the scientific method ,the latter that's a product of the mind in its mutual interactions with its environment , then consciousness cannot but be involved in all that ,cannot be separated from the observed so-called objective reality or observed universe,since consciousness does make part of this universe (The latter that cannot be just material or physical thus , but has to be also mental ) : they are intertwined with each other ,so, any real progress in the study of the universe might turn out ,some day , to be impossible without that in the study of consciousness : we see that happening already in QM, for example , QM that can  never be understood without reference to the mind , once again .

See Bell's theorem and its related experiments done by Aspect , Clauser and others that proved non-locality , introduced the limited notion of free will at the level of the kinds of measurements that physicists choose to apply , challenged the very foundations of reality ...

We must try to answer the major questions thus regarding how we are able to be aware or conscious of the universe and of ourselves, how come that we can try to understand the universe and ourselves , when or how consciousness emerged , what is its origin .,,,

Clearly , biological evolution cannot account for consciousness , since the latter cannot be reduced to material , neurophysiological or biological processes .

There are a lot more  unanswered questions on the subject we should try to explore as well , but the main problem is : we are stuck within our consciousnesses , in the sense that we are trying to study the subject through the subject , the subject trying to study itself .

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If that is your position, I suggest that you consider the following question:
Where was consciousness at the Big Bang event. And we really don't need to go clear back to this time in history. Where was consciousness before the earth came into being? And even later in the historical record, where was consciousness before life first appeared upon this planet?

I don't know , but i think that the physical universe prior to life's and to man's appearance in it did exist as just probabilities , possibilities , eventualities ...waiting to be actualized , or as a scientist said :

It doesn't matter that the universe did exist billions of years before man entered its stage ,the universe exists because we are aware of it .

But then again , i am not sure about the above , who is ?

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I suggest that consciousness is dependent upon the universal environment which gave us the material brain which developed over many millions of years. But the material environment was here long before that conscious intelligence developed. So consciousness and the universe were not inseparably linked from the beginning. Consciousness developed later in this story.

That's the chicken-egg question lol : which one existed first .

See above : biological evolution cannot account for consciousness, since the latter cannot be material or physical .

Materialism puts the horse behind the chariot lol : assumes that matter is primordial ( 0,00000...1 % of the universe, including ourselves thus ,  is made of "matter " though lol ) and the mind is just a by-product or side -effect of the so-called evolution of  the physical brain , and without any causal effects on the latter (Absurd paradoxical false intrinsic materialistic assumptions)  but the opposite  might be more plausible, i don't know ,since the mind is the one that's primordial ,and since materialism is false .

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If you have evidence to prove otherwise, please present it to us.

lol I have more evidence for the fact that Sint Claus can be in many places at once lol, than for the above :

No one has any evidence  : QM might help clarify all that , to some extent at least , by proving the central role of consciousness in it , but how can we either prove or falsify the real nature of reality at the sub-atomic level at least when we are not observing or measuring it ? You tell me , Ethos .I don't know .

QM might also get superseded in its turn someday , who knows ?
« Last Edit: 10/12/2014 21:19:30 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline DonQuichotte

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Ethos :

Source : "Quantum Enigma , Physics encounters consciousness : "

http://quantumenigma.com/

"According to Bell:
In his arguments with Bohr, Einstein was wrong in all the details.
Bohr understood the actual manipulation of quantum mechanics much better than Einstein. But still, in his philosophy of physics and his idea of what it is all about and what we are doing and should do, Einstein seems to be absolutely admirable. . . . [T]here is no doubt that he is, for me, the model of how one should think about physics."

.......


"Bell’s theorem and the experiments it fostered are responsible. They
did more than confi rm the weird predictions of quantum theory. The
experiments showed that no future theory could ever explain our actual
world as a “reasonable” one. Any correct future theory must describe a world in which objects do not have properties that are separately their own, independent of their “observation.” In principle, that applies to all objects. Even to us?"

............

Bell’s theorem has been called “the most profound discovery in science in
the last half of the twentieth century.” It has rubbed physics’ nose in the weirdness of quantum mechanics. Bell’s theorem and the experiments it stimulated answered what was supposedly a “merely philosophical question” in the laboratory. We now know Einstein’s “spooky actions” actually exist. Even events at the edge of the galaxy instantly influence what happens at the edge of your garden. We quickly emphasize that such influences are undetectable in any normally complex situation.Nevertheless, What are now called “EPR-Bell influences,” or entanglement, now get attention in industrial laboratories for their potential to allow incredibly powerful computers. They already provide the most secure encryption for confidential communication. Bell’s theorem has renewed interest in the foundations of quantum mechanics, and dramatically displays physics’ encounter with consciousness."

..........

.."When the experiments were done, Bell’s inequality was violated. Assumptions of reality and separability yielded a wrong prediction in our actual world.

Bell’s straw man was knocked down, as Bell expected it would be. Our world therefore does not have both reality and separability. It’s in this sense, an “unreasonable” world.
We immediately admit not understanding what the world lacking “reality” might mean. Even what “reality” itself might mean. In fact, whether or not reality is indeed required as a premise in Bell’s theorem is in dispute.
However, we need not deal with that right now.

 For our derivation of a Bell inequality, we assume a straightforward real world. Later, when we discuss the consequences of the violation of Bell’s inequality in our actual world, we’ll define a “reality” implicitly accepted by most physicists. It will leave us with a strangely connected world."

P.S : My emphasis : In short :

What we take  for granted as the physical universe or physical reality, through our mindful perception of it at least , might be just a mental construct of ours = the universe might be ...mental .

In other words : What we take for granted as reality or as the physical universe thus might be just a mental illusion .

I can't even imagine what that means .I can't even picture that or imagine that .Who can ?

That sounds insane to all of us indeed , but that's what QM has been saying anyway : Bell's theorem and its related experiments just supported and proved that fact more clearly than ever before .

Don't leave your mind to ...materialism then, Ethos lol , like Descartes did by leaving (  his) the mind to the church , metaphorically speaking then  lol .Use it to grasp the above and more .Your mind is not powerless .It is powerful , more powerful than you can ever imagine, you have no idea ,my friend Ethos .

That turns all what materialistic science has been saying about the origin of the universe , the origin of life , the evolution of life ...upside down, to say the least .

Welcome to the "real " world .Cheers.
« Last Edit: 10/12/2014 21:59:56 by DonQuichotte »
 

Offline Ethos_

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In other words : What we take for granted as reality or as the physical universe thus might be just a mental illusion .


That might be true if I were the only observer Don. But I'm not! I have support from millions of other people that experience the same observations. And this is why we test and observe and qualify those observations as genuine realities. The only other conclusion one could draw is that we are alone in our illusions and may be ourselves, nothing more than an illusion.

So humanity is left with a decision. Do I believe what I observe or do I invent my own reality. I think you'll remember what I said the latter course leads one to, it's called insanity. So you have a choice Don as each and everyone of us also has. Accept the evidence of observation or declare your very existence as an illusion.

Science chooses to take all reasonable information either observed by experiment or understood thru mathematics. It's all the evidence we have to judge this world by. And if, as you speculate, it's only an illusion, all the conclusions we will ever be able to draw from those illusions are also nothing more than only illusions! So why draw any conclusions at all?

I prefer the reality that is in agreement with others of my own kind and the world around me.
« Last Edit: 10/12/2014 22:25:12 by Ethos_ »
 

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