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Author Topic: Does length contraction actually exist?  (Read 18225 times)

Offline NUFOIB

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #25 on: 03/11/2014 10:06:00 »
An easy way to understand length contraction, is to first think about reality itself.

Picture yourself having no education within the field of physics at all. However, you are interested in the concept of motion. And so if you then bother to independently analyze the idea of absolute motion that takes place within an absolute 4 dimensional environment known as Space-Time, this eventually leads you to Special Relativity and the derivation of all of its mathematical equations. Anyone can figure it out on their own, if they simply bother to try. This ever so simple analysis of motion, provides you with a full understanding of length contraction, time dilation, velocity addition, and Lorentz transformations.

A casual presentation of this analysis of motion, which starts from scratch, and its outcome, can be found at
list=PL3zkZRUI2IyBFAowlUivFbeBh-Mq7HdoQ
As shown within the videos, length contraction is due to rotaion within the 4 dimensional Space-Time environment.

Objects are constantly on the move within Space-Time. The speed of this constant motion is the same magnitude of motion as is the speed of light moving across space. In the above diagram we see motion vectors c and v. We also see an object and its length, thus lengths, stacked in the very same geometry. Thus when v is changed, so is the objects spatial length. From this we create 2 identical right angle triangles. This allows us to pass information from the vector triangle on over to the length triangle. As sown in the videos, it also allows us to create the velocity addition equation, and the Lorentz Transformation equations. It also allows us to determine clock offsets such as the clock offset occurring if located at the (R)ear and the (F)ront of the object.
« Last Edit: 03/11/2014 10:12:34 by NUFOIB »
 

Offline phyti39

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #26 on: 03/11/2014 16:55:54 »
I think I need to go and derive a mass equation.
The cycle time for a photon exchange over a distance d at rest is d/c=t.
The cycle time for a photon exchange over a distance d moving is d'/c=t'= γt (time dilation).
The em force f = Q/d^2.
The effective distance d'= γd.
The effective force f' = Q/(γd)^2 = f/γ^2 < f.
Since f' is equal in x and p (any perpendicular) direction, and the acceleration is in x, this allows compression in x.
Td and lc both result from extended spatial paths for photons, which results from object motion.

What about motion through a gravitational field? This takes account of velocity or acceleration without regard to a gravitational field external to the moving mass.
Acceleration regardless of its source changes speed which produces td and lc. In a uniform g field, an object should react as in an inertial frame. In the case of non uniform g fields, there are the tidal effects.
Beyond the basics of black holes, I have no knowledge based response to your question.
 

Offline joepierson

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #27 on: 05/11/2014 00:31:42 »
Length contraction is a perspective quality, we have no intrinsic length, so to speak, when length is measured using a clock and two time events in a reference frame.
 

Offline NUFOIB

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #28 on: 13/11/2014 17:52:33 »
Length contraction is based upon rotation taking place within the 4 dimensional Space-Time environment.

If you have two identical pencils, (A) and (B), and both extend across space only, if you rotate pencil (A) such that it begins to extend across the dimension of time, less of it now extends across the dimension of space. Hence a spatial length contraction of pencil (A) has occurred.

Since the two pencils are no longer oriented in the same manner within Space-Time, if you look at pencil (B) from pencil (A's) point of view, it appears as though pencil (B) has experienced spatial length contraction, even though it had not.

 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #29 on: 14/11/2014 14:14:19 »
:)
Heh.

Then explain muons,  particle accelerator experiments, etc, NUFOIB, aka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Length_contraction#Experimental_verifications 

 "it appears as though pencil (B) has experienced spatial length contraction, even though it had not."

I think you need to read up some more on how a observer dependency is defined, and relativity.

(Btw: I can spot Newtonian views of the universe miles away, eh, observer dependently naturally:)
==

Think you need to correct this guy too, not only the rest of those 'crazed' physicists imagining things :)
http://www.askamathematician.com/2011/01/q-why-does-relativistic-length-contraction-lorentz-contraction-happen/

« Last Edit: 14/11/2014 14:23:22 by yor_on »
 

Offline NUFOIB

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #30 on: 16/11/2014 00:15:51 »
Hey yor_on.

My understanding can't be much bigger.

I, during my spare time, kept analyzing "motion", and did so by looking at its completeness. Due to leaving school and having branched out into the world of electronics, and moving my way up the ladder, I had no education in the field of physics. But despite that, I was curious as to why others did not seem to be able to be aware of the bizarre properties of motion.

But I kept on moving. Soon I figured out what was really going on, rather than what a mere eye tells you is going on, concerning motion. This was easy to then convert into a simple geometric representation. The geometric representation then allowed me to convert all of which I now understood about motion into equations. I was tickled pink to find out that my equations were identical to those known today as the Lorentz-Fitzgerald Length Contraction equation, the Time Dilation equation, the Lorentz Transformation equations, and the Velocity Addition equation.

All this I did with no education in the field of physics at all.

Now if my understanding produces all of the same equations, what could be in error?

A casual presentation of my analysis of motion, which starts from scratch, and moves on to a full understanding of Special Relativity and the production of the equations, can be found at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKAwpEetJ-Q&list=PL3zkZRUI2IyBFAowlUivFbeBh-Mq7HdoQ [nofollow]
( Total length 1 hr 39min. , thus it sits beyond today's typical human attention span. )
« Last Edit: 16/11/2014 00:19:08 by NUFOIB »
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #31 on: 16/11/2014 00:42:21 »
Length contraction is based upon rotation taking place within the 4 dimensional Space-Time environment.

If you have two identical pencils, (A) and (B), and both extend across space only, if you rotate pencil (A) such that it begins to extend across the dimension of time, less of it now extends across the dimension of space. Hence a spatial length contraction of pencil (A) has occurred.

Since the two pencils are no longer oriented in the same manner within Space-Time, if you look at pencil (B) from pencil (A's) point of view, it appears as though pencil (B) has experienced spatial length contraction, even though it had not.

Now this is a very interesting conclusion.
 

Offline NUFOIB

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #32 on: 16/11/2014 02:45:50 »
Well like I have said, if you watch my videos you will have a whole new understanding of Special Relativity. So if you grab a coffee and maybe watch it on youtube on TV, you will be fascinated at what brings Special Relativity into reality being in the first place.
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #33 on: 16/11/2014 03:00:11 »
Well like I have said, if you watch my videos you will have a whole new understanding of Special Relativity. So if you grab a coffee and maybe watch it on youtube on TV, you will be fascinated at what brings Special Relativity into reality being in the first place.

It would be better if you stated your theory here in the new theories section. I have better things to do than sit through long videos.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #34 on: 16/11/2014 10:28:53 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
Well like I have said, if you watch my videos you will have a whole new understanding of Special Relativity. So if you grab a coffee and maybe watch it on youtube on TV, you will be fascinated at what brings Special Relativity into reality being in the first place.

It would be better if you stated your theory here in the new theories section. I have better things to do than sit through long videos.
That statement deserves a lot of praise. So many people who come here and post videos. I simply don't have time to watch a video. I'm either thinking or working + walking. Not time to watch videos on my computer.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #35 on: 16/11/2014 11:10:54 »
Quote from: NUFOIB
Well like I have said, if you watch my videos you will have a whole new understanding of Special Relativity. So if you grab a coffee and maybe watch it on youtube on TV, you will be fascinated at what brings Special Relativity into reality being in the first place.
I'm saying this given the fact that I haven't seen the video. I believe that there is no substitution of reading a textbook in SR and working out some problems in the text to make sure that you have grasped the theory rather than merely looking at a video. There is simply no substitution for hard work.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #36 on: 16/11/2014 11:19:37 »
Quote from: NUFOIB
As shown within the videos, length contraction is due to rotation within the 4 dimensional Space-Time environment.
I corrected your spelling of "rotation" in that comment. I hope I corrected it correctly. Did I??? :o

The process with this technology is that it can lead to confusion. Did you mean to actually say that "Objects are constantly on the move within Space-Time."?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #37 on: 16/11/2014 11:54:41 »
Nufoib :)

A geometric definition is what relativity use today. Wasn't Einsteins though, but a later description adopted. The real point is whether one accept it those observer dependencies to be real, or believe them to be a illusion. If I read you right you see it as a illusion. Those links I gave you, especially the last, does not.

"In 1911 Vladimir Varićak asserted that length contraction is "real" according to Lorentz, while it is "apparent or subjective" according to Einstein. Einstein replied:

    The author unjustifiably stated a difference of Lorentz's view and that of mine concerning the physical facts. The question as to whether length contraction really exists or not is misleading. It doesn't "really" exist, in so far as it doesn't exist for a comoving observer; though it "really" exists, i.e. in such a way that it could be demonstrated in principle by physical means by a non-comoving observer.
    —Albert Einstein, 1911

Einstein also argued in that paper, that length contraction is not simply the product of arbitrary definitions concerning the way clock regulations and length measurements are performed. He presented the following thought experiment: Let A'B' and A"B" be the endpoints of two rods of same proper length. Let them move in opposite directions with same speed with respect to a resting coordinate x-axis. Endpoints A'A" meet at point A*, and B'B" meet at point B*, both points being marked on that axis. Einstein pointed out that length A*B* is shorter than A'B' or A"B", which can also be demonstrated by one of the rods when brought to rest with respect to that axis."

So Einstein did see it too. It would have been weird if he didn't, after all, it was his idea to define 'c' the way he did. If you look up Norton you will see him using geometry too, to explain relativity in a simple way. What I don't agree too is you assuming it to be illusionary.

 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #38 on: 16/11/2014 12:08:45 »
And yes, you should present your idea as simple as you can, break it down in steps, and if you find it to differ from main stream physics, you should consider moving it to 'New Theories' instead of here. There's a lot of smart guys (and gals) already using that section so you would be in good company.  Utube is no replacement for a discussion.
 

Offline lightarrow

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #39 on: 16/11/2014 14:51:22 »
Well like I have said, if you watch my videos you will have a whole new understanding of Special Relativity. So if you grab a coffee and maybe watch it on youtube on TV, you will be fascinated at what brings Special Relativity into reality being in the first place.
I watched a video and you start from various unexpressed assumptions. If you tried to put all of them in a well expressed form, you will probably conclude that SR is simpler.
Anyway, write down the postulates/hypothesis/assumptions in a very clear form.

--
lightarrow
 

Offline NUFOIB

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #40 on: 18/11/2014 00:18:28 »
WELL LOOK AT IT THIS WAY.....
For one thing, I do not venture into such things such as theories, nor do I create them.
Instead, I just analyze, via the use of pure logic, and do so from ground zero, rather than rest my work upon the previous work of others.

Simply put, any question I have seen on the internet, concerning the full understanding of Special Relativity and thus knowing of its entirety, is answered within the videos.
This includes many questions that were handed to physicists, where even the physicists were unable to provide answers.

So, .... don't want, ....then don't watch.

If you simply do not want to see the entirety concerning SR, then just stick to talking about length contractions, time dilation, relative synchronicity, Lorentz transformations, Lorentz boosts, etc., meaning keep SR shattered into these separate pieces rather than choose to see its entirety.

Sorry for wanting to share things with you. It is just the way I am.
Despite being unemployed, I still shared enough of my money with others, to save the lives of children, and I managed to take a street person off the streets as well.
Again.....My apologies for being this kind of a person.
« Last Edit: 18/11/2014 00:32:18 by NUFOIB »
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #41 on: 18/11/2014 07:09:41 »
Quote from: NUFOIB
WELL LOOK AT IT THIS WAY.....
For one thing, I do not venture into such things such as theories, nor do I create them.
Instead, I just analyze, via the use of pure logic, and do so from ground zero, rather than rest my work upon the previous work of others.
Then what you're doing is not physics so why bring it to a physics forum. If you want to learn what physics is and how it works you'll have to do more than sit at home and think since mere logic is insufficient to do physics. One has to know what nature is doing so one has to learn the observations made my scientists. Without studying the results of such experiments and observations and as well as knowing current theories and how they came to be that way then you really talking about science.

If you want to study/do physics then I suggest that you read these two papers:
http://home.comcast.net/~peter.m.brown/ref/philosophy_physics.pdf
http://home.comcast.net/~peter.m.brown/ref/what_is_science.pdf
 

Offline NUFOIB

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #42 on: 19/11/2014 22:35:00 »
Quote from: NUFOIB
WELL LOOK AT IT THIS WAY.....
For one thing, I do not venture into such things such as theories, nor do I create them.
Instead, I just analyze, via the use of pure logic, and do so from ground zero, rather than rest my work upon the previous work of others.
Then what you're doing is not physics so why bring it to a physics forum. If you want to learn what physics is and how it works you'll have to do more than sit at home and think since mere logic is insufficient to do physics. One has to know what nature is doing so one has to learn the observations made my scientists. Without studying the results of such experiments and observations and as well as knowing current theories and how they came to be that way then you really talking about science.

If you want to study/do physics then I suggest that you read these two papers:
http://home.comcast.net/~peter.m.brown/ref/philosophy_physics.pdf [nofollow]
http://home.comcast.net/~peter.m.brown/ref/what_is_science.pdf [nofollow]
What the heck ????

I thought about what was required to make motion possible, and did so by analyzing the concept of motion itself. The outcome of my independent analysis of motion was a full understanding of Special Relativity along with me having independently created all of the SR equations. Now I suppose if a person is not that bright, then they may need further assistance, as you have suggested, but I don't think that it should be demanded that we ALL be stupid. I don't think that it should be a must.

If a person such as myself can start from pure scratch, and independently come up with Special Relativity and all of its equations, yet meanwhile others think that such a person doesn't know what he or she is doing due to having achieved such a stupendous outcome, then what can one say accept,  WHAT THE HECK ?????

My analysis of motion is seen at 
list=PL3zkZRUI2IyBFAowlUivFbeBh-Mq7HdoQ
( Total length 1 hr 39min. , thus it sits beyond today's typical human attention span. )
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #43 on: 20/11/2014 22:40:16 »
Be cool my friend, we all have our own way. You're brave but maybe you need to put it where it belongs, New Theories. That doesn't mean that people won't read you, and argue :)

But, that's life, isn't it?
 

Offline NUFOIB

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #44 on: 21/11/2014 03:36:28 »
Be cool my friend, we all have our own way. You're brave but maybe you need to put it where it belongs, New Theories. That doesn't mean that people won't read you, and argue :)

But, that's life, isn't it?
Since when did "Special Relativity" become a "New Theory" ?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #45 on: 06/12/2014 19:13:03 »
Special relativity is confirmed, so is the fact of a actual length contraction, observer defined. That's where you seem to differ in your thoughts N. Doesn't mean you can't argue for your interpretation in which, as I read you? Where "Since the two pencils are no longer oriented in the same manner within Space-Time, if you look at pencil (B) from pencil (A's) point of view, it appears as though pencil (B) has experienced spatial length contraction, even though it had not."

I would say that the last statement needs to be proved, and also that this type of new definitions correct place are in New Theories. There's no insult intended from any of us, it's just the way we do it here. Also that you should be able to describe it without a movie involved, I'm sure you have the material somewhere at hand to do so, considering the amount of time you seem to have put into thinking about it. And remember, it's not only you that meet this form of answer, it has happened to most of us, at some time or other.

Lightarrows definition works for me "Anyway, write down the postulates/hypothesis/assumptions in a very clear form."
 

Offline NUFOIB

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #46 on: 30/04/2015 18:03:55 »
When dealing with Special Relativity, the "theory" of Special Relativity itself appears to be all that most people are interested in.

Most people are quite happy with this limited reach. They can only see the structure of SR from the inside. Thus, being trapped on the inside, they can not see SR "Absolutely", since they can not see SR from the outside as a whole. In turn, they can not understand Special Relativity in an absolute sense.

On the other hand, if you see SR from the outside, and thus see it as a singularity, then you can see it at work with your mind, and do so with merely a single image within your mind. With this single image, you can derive each and every one of the SR equations within mere minutes. See http://goo.gl/fz4R0I [nofollow] However, incompleteness becomes a must when it comes to satisfaction for most folk, so they are just not interested in absolute understanding of SR.

 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #47 on: 30/04/2015 18:33:18 »
NUFOIB - Everything in your post is totally incoherent. I'll explain below.

Quote from: NUFOIB
When dealing with Special Relativity, the "theory" of Special Relativity itself appears to be all that most people are interested in.
That makes no sense at all. Special relativity and the theory of special relativity mean identically the same exact thing. So what on earth are you talking about?

Quote from: NUFOIB
Most people are quite happy with this limited reach.
What is this "limit" that you're talking about?

Quote from: NUFOIB
They can only see the structure of SR from the inside.
Inside what?

Quote from: NUFOIB
Thus, being trapped on the inside, they can not see SR "Absolutely",
What do you mean by seeing SR "Absolutely"?

Quote from: NUFOIB
In turn, they can not understand Special Relativity in an absolute sense.
Oh really? And who says so? I know SR quite well and have an extremely good understanding of it.

Quote from: NUFOIB
On the other hand, if you see SR from the outside, and thus see it as a singularity,
That makes no sense either. What do you mean by the term "singularity" in this context?

Quote from: NUFOIB
then you can see it at work with your mind, and do so with merely a single image within your mind. With this single image, you can derive each and every one of the SR equations within mere minutes. See http://goo.gl/fz4R0I However, incompleteness becomes a must when it comes to satisfaction for most folk, so they are just not interested in absolute understanding of SR.
I watched the first video and it's crap. That guy knows nothing about Einstein and next to nothing about SR. He made a serious mistake thinking that those equations are all there are to SR. SR is about the laws of physics. Not merely how to use the Lorentz transformation to obtain the velocity transformation, time dilation and Lorentz contraction. First off he left out the equations for the transformation of acceleration, force, energy and mass. He left out the expression for relativistic mass too as well as the 4-position, 4-velocity, 4-acceleration, 4-momentum, 4-force and the stress-energy-momentum tensor.

Ignore those videos folks. They're most likely as misleading as the first one.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #48 on: 30/04/2015 19:20:56 »
Length contraction? 

You mean like a spring compressing right or a telescopic pole being un-extended?

 

Offline EEK

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #49 on: 04/05/2015 00:39:10 »
Please read content #11: I don't see any Length Contraction in the following ?? in the following link. it may or may not help.

newbielink:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Length_contraction/Archive_1#I_don.27t_see_any_Length_Contraction_in_the_following_.3F.3F [nonactive]
 

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Re: Does length contraction actually exist?
« Reply #49 on: 04/05/2015 00:39:10 »

 

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