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Author Topic: An unnoticed disease?  (Read 5776 times)

Offline ArmenArtist

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An unnoticed disease?
« on: 12/09/2006 09:52:28 »
Down Syndrome babies have a certain 'look', as do dwarfs and etc.  

But, there is another look that defies genetics.

I used to have a friend who looked nothing like his parents...he has a certain persanility to match his facial features, his smile...his eyes...  

He has this strange physical and mental connection to George Clooney, One of Sadoms sons that was  killed, Sean Connery, and random people ive seen on tv or in real life.

There is a similar personality and physical appeance, like down syndrome, and im curious to know if anybody has ever noticed this too?


 

Offline gecko

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Re: An unnoticed disease?
« Reply #1 on: 13/09/2006 20:11:34 »
sometimes, out of a group of 6 Billion people, some of them will look similar and have similar personalities.
 

Offline ArmenArtist

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Re: An unnoticed disease?
« Reply #2 on: 13/09/2006 21:39:43 »
Yes, but what i am talking about seems to be symptomatic, with abnormal dopamine levels possibly.  I guess it is because I am bipolar, and onetime, after having a natural high that was abnormal, then i could feel and smile and seem like these people, and i knew then, that this certain attitude and perspective on life was due to abnormal brain chemistry.
 

Offline iko

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Re: An unnoticed disease?
« Reply #3 on: 13/09/2006 22:00:58 »
The molecular mechanisms of bipolar disorder are unknown. A lot of studies are in progress...when something specific is found, it will probably explain those common characteristics that you noticed.
I read this interesting book about bipolar disorder, depression and diet. Andrew L. Stoll, a pharmacologist, wrote it just few years ago:
http://www.amazon.com/Omega-3-Connection-Groundbreaking-Anti-depression-Program/dp/0684871386
Did you read it by any chance? I found it quite interesting.
best wishes,
iko
« Last Edit: 14/09/2006 14:17:15 by iko »
 

another_someone

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Re: An unnoticed disease?
« Reply #4 on: 13/09/2006 22:40:33 »
There is an old, and largely discredited, discipline of phrenology.

On the other hand (in more ways than one):

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20050614-000004.html
quote:

Look down at your right hand. Is your ring finger longer than your index finger? Or vice versa? To be certain, take a ruler and measure from the bottom crease of each finger to the tip.
The measurements tell you something about the environment of your mother's womb just weeks after your conception, a time when your fingers, and more importantly, your brain, were developing. Because of the influx of sex hormones at this prenatal stage, men tend to have ring fingers that are slightly longer than their index fingers. In women, these fingers are usually the same length or the index digit is just a bit longer.
Digits are subtly affected by testosterone and estrogen produced in the womb by the fetus (not by the mother). Between weeks 8 and 14, tiny fetal testes, ovaries and adrenal glands secrete the baby's own supply of sex hormones. These chemical messengers, particularly testosterone, cause chain reactions in the body, spurring the growth of the genitals, encouraging and inhibiting growth in brain regions and causing changes in the fingers. Many scientists believe relative finger length—or digit ratio—is a marker for brain differences molded by hormones. Like a bit of prenatal graffiti, a longer ring finger says, "Testosterone was here."
John Manning, a biologist at the University of Liverpool, first identified digit length as a sign of prenatal hormones eight years ago. He believes digit ratio is an important, if indirect, tool for studying the fetal brain and the womb, an environment that's off-limits to scientists except for analysis by amniocentesis. (And even then, because sex hormones fluctuate hour by hour, amniocentesis is a poor indicator of testosterone exposure.)
"Early sex hormones have an organizing effect on the brain that's permanent," Manning says. But the differences between the sexes aren't all that interesting to biologists. More telling are the variations within each sex. Females with masculine digit ratios have more masculine behaviors, he says. Likewise, males with a typically female ratio exhibit more typically feminine behaviors.
A recent study of digit ratio in Scottish preschool children between the ages of 2 and 4 found strong relationships between digit ratio and gender-normative behavior. Girls with masculine-type finger ratios tend to have higher hyperactivity scores and more problems relating to their peers than do other girls. The same study, published in Early Human Development, found that boys with female-type finger lengths are on average more emotional than other boys. "They tended to be very sensitive," says Manning.
Except for genitalia, relative finger length is the only physical trait fixed at birth that is sexually dimorphic—meaning males and females show typical gender differences. Other sexually dimorphic traits, such as height and waist-to-hip ratio, don't appear until puberty.
"Everything you see as far as sex differences in the behavior of toddlers is an aftereffect of prenatal testosterone," says Dennis McFadden, a psychology professor at the University of Texas at Austin. Manning and others have linked finger length ratios to aggression, left-handedness, heart disease, autism and attention deficit disorder, all traits that are more common in men. (Studies indicate they are most common in men with longer than average ring fingers.) A "masculine" finger pattern seems to similarly mark girls predisposed to hyperactivity and autism.
Some scientists believe prenatal sex hormones are also part of the puzzle of homosexuality and that a high level of testosterone may wire the brain for attraction to the same sex. Intriguingly, research shows that a prenatal testosterone level is most strongly linked to homosexuality in women, according to a recent article in the Archives of Sexual Behavior. Lesbians are more likely than straight women to have a masculine finger ratio, says McFadden.



http://autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/2002_Manning_etal.pdf
quote:

It has been suggested that autism may arise as the result of exposure to high
concentrations of prenatal testosterone. There is evidence that the ratio of the lengths
of the 2nd and 4th digit (2D:4D) may be negatively correlated with prenatal
testosterone. We measured the 2D:4D ratio in 95 families recruited via the National
Autistic Society, U.K.. The sample included 72 children with autism (23 with
Asperger’s syndrome, AS), 34 siblings, 88 fathers, 88 mothers and their controls. We
found that the 2D:4D ratios of children with autism, their siblings, fathers and mothers
were lower than population norms. Children with AS, who share the social and
communicative symptoms of autism but have normal or even superior IQ, had higher
2D:4D ratios than children with autism but lower ratios than population norms. There
were positive associations between 2D:4D ratios of children with autism and the
ratios of their relatives. Children with autism had lower than expected 2D:4D ratios
and children with AS higher ratios than expected in relation to their father’s 2D:4D
ratio. We conclude that 2D:4D ratio may be a possible marker for autism which could
implicate prenatal testosterone in its aetiology.



http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/03/fingers_point_t.php
quote:

Canadian researchers say they’ve found a way to help ‘finger’ men with physically aggressive personalities.
A University of Alberta study finds that measuring a man’s index finger length relative to his ring finger length predicts his predisposition to being physically aggressive.
The shorter the index finger relative to the ring finger, the higher the amount of prenatal testosterone and the more likely the man will be physically aggressive, they researchers say.
In a prepared statement, study co-author Dr. Peter Hurd admitted he initially thought the finger-aggression link was “a pile of hooey,” until he reviewed the data.
According to the researchers, experts have known for a hundred years that the index-to-ring finger length ratio of men differs considerably from that seen in women. And more recently, research has suggested that the length of men’s fingers changes depending on their exposure to testosterone in the womb.



If all of this is from the length of fingers, then why not from other parts of the bodies – even maybe part of the information that is subtly used by palm readers.



George
 

Offline ArmenArtist

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Re: An unnoticed disease?
« Reply #5 on: 14/09/2006 00:55:01 »
I dont know how ring fingers relate...but i think even tupac had this look and personality type..

It is a kind of emotional connection that is different than most.... not good or bad, just different, and not in an 'everybody is different way,'  And this kind of thing makes people more attractive for some reason and memorable.

 

Offline gecko

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Re: An unnoticed disease?
« Reply #6 on: 14/09/2006 20:24:39 »
i dont buy it. its completely anecdotal who "acts agressive/masculine" and "acts sensitive/feminine". are the subjects self identifying as these things? or are researchers "observing" these traits from a simple interview? either way theres nothing concrete going on, its all a combination of opinions and loose interpretation.

of course it would be wonderful if all criminals had long ringfingers so we could just lock them up out of the womb. and if we could explain sexuality with finger length. so people are going to be gullible about this and want to believe it. all i see is speculation.

my right hands index is longer, and my lefts ringfinger is longer. i did notice my left hand acting a bit more masculine than my right.

as for palm reading- ive never heard of one palm reader who works with JUST HANDS. they insist on seeing you in person, because theyre really reading your face and voice- somethign that is an indication of your feelings. ask a succesful palm reader if you can send them a fax of a picture of your palm. ill guess 9/10 wouldnt do it.

you see, im acting AGRESSIVE so i must have had a hyper-dose of testosterone in the womb. no measurement took place, but because one confused primates interpretation of this confused primates behavior is "agressive", then it must be true. i must have just had a finger accident or something.
 

another_someone

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Re: An unnoticed disease?
« Reply #7 on: 14/09/2006 20:44:44 »
Criminality is very different from aggression.  A criminal is defined by the way an individual interacts with the law.  Not all criminals are aggressive, and not all people who have an aggressive streak will express that aggression in criminal behaviour.

Ofcourse, almost any personality trait has the problem that it is subjective in some degree.  Does this mean that any research into personality traits, whether related to genetic (twin studies), or with regard to correlation with physiological parameters (e.g. finger lengths) are all, without exception, invalid?



George
 

Offline iko

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Re: An unnoticed disease?
« Reply #8 on: 14/09/2006 23:06:27 »
Environment plays a major role too...
If an abused child becomes a child abuser and a criminal, well in this case the so called genetic profile is not important at all.
iko
« Last Edit: 14/09/2006 23:07:39 by iko »
 

Offline gecko

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Re: An unnoticed disease?
« Reply #9 on: 15/09/2006 04:03:02 »
i didnt mean what i said about criminality, i was being overly dramatic, and it wasnt really needed.

i actually would say that all studies of personality traits are invalid, or at least, have to have much more substantial proof than they already do. extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. and something like "people with long ringfingers are more agressive" is a pretty extraordinary claim.

ive been pretty anti-psychiatry since i became aware of the "science"(guesswork) in treating peoples personality "disorders"(quirks). i know this is a position few agree with, so maybe i shouldnt bother bringing it out.
 

another_someone

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Re: An unnoticed disease?
« Reply #10 on: 15/09/2006 13:14:30 »
quote:
Originally posted by gecko

i didnt mean what i said about criminality, i was being overly dramatic, and it wasnt really needed.

i actually would say that all studies of personality traits are invalid, or at least, have to have much more substantial proof than they already do. extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. and something like "people with long ringfingers are more agressive" is a pretty extraordinary claim.

ive been pretty anti-psychiatry since i became aware of the "science"(guesswork) in treating peoples personality "disorders"(quirks). i know this is a position few agree with, so maybe i shouldnt bother bringing it out.



But we have different situations – the precise assessment of an individuals personality, and the statistical assessment of a group of people.

We can tolerate a fair amount of approximation, and even error, when making a statistical assessment of a group; and if the results are sufficiently significant, they can then tolerate the error.  Ofcourse, if the statistical evidence is only marginal, then it will not be tolerant of any error, and your reason to be suspicious of the results is totally valid.

I cannot say what level of error the statistics I have given will tolerate.

It must be said that this problem not only applies to personality traits, but to many medical conditions for which there is no direct and unambiguous physical measurement (this includes diagnoses of diseases such as Alzheimer's or Parkinson's, except after a post mortem, but even diseases such as ME).



George
« Last Edit: 15/09/2006 13:19:28 by another_someone »
 

Offline gecko

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Re: An unnoticed disease?
« Reply #11 on: 16/09/2006 02:03:21 »
yeah, ive heard alzheimers and parkinsons are hard to diagnose for sure, because they are just a collection of symptoms with no absolute physical evidence. interesting

i do apologize that this has strayed so far off the original topic
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: An unnoticed disease?
« Reply #11 on: 16/09/2006 02:03:21 »

 

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