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Offline thebrain13

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Creationism and death
« on: 14/09/2006 02:41:00 »
There are two major views of creationism and death. There is the religous and the scientific. Religions answer is god created everything, and when you die you go to the afterlife. Sciences answer for creationism is the big bang, and their answer for death is the disturbing, rot for eternity, and well thats it. You shall be engulfed in nothingness for all time.

Now Im not religous so I ruled out the first scenario. And for the second unsettling scenario, I've ruled that out as well. I just dont understand how that can be considered logical. Lets think about what we know for sure, with one hundered percent certainty, for a second. We know scientifically speaking that life can evolve, and that we have evolved, and we are alive right now. So why does everybody think that our existance, now, is such a fluke? Why do people think that? I would assume just the opposite.

This is what I assume. Time cant end, there can always be a next year, even if the earth explodes, the universe stops moving, all the energy is used up, there will always be a next thousand, million, billion, trillion on and on and on years. Time is infinite. So given that time is infinite, what are the chances that we exist at only this one specific point in time? I guess the equation would be our lifespan divided by infinity, in otherwords that chance is infinantly small, or that thought (which is assumed by everyone) is impossible.

So the only way, I believe, that we can perceive our life as happening, at this specific moment in time, is if we shall exist an infinite amount of times more, and have existed an infinate amount of times. And why is this scenario so hard to believe? We know it has happened, why do we assume that it can't happen again, and why do we assume it hasn't happened before?

So this is what happens when you die. You cant feel touch see hear or think. So you cant perceive the passage of time. And perception is what makes you alive. So when you die time will pass infinately fast, relative to you of course, since you cant observe it passing. And when time is passing infinetly fast, eventually, eventually the right amounts of carbon nitrogen oxygen hydrogen etc will collect on earth, the sun will burn just hot enough and you will exist once again, even if it takes a trillion trillion trillion trillion years.

So thats how I know einstein, me, you, and george washington cant truely die. They existed once, and they will exist again.

Come on you didnt really think that all everything in its entirety was just going to end did you?


 

Offline gecko

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #1 on: 14/09/2006 20:32:43 »
The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out,
The worms play pinochle on your snout.
They eat your eyes, they eat your nose,
They eat the jelly between your toes.

A great big worm with rolling eyes,
Crawls in your stomach and out your eyes,
Your stomach turns a slimy green,
And pus pours out like whipping cream.

You spread it on a slice of bread,
And that's what worms eat when you're dead.


this is what i choose to believe. NO PROOF CAN DENY MY FAITH!
 

another_someone

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #2 on: 14/09/2006 22:15:40 »
Firstly, there are many theories that assume that time is not actually infinite, but that time started at the point of the Big Bang, and will finish in a Big Crunch.

Even if one assumes that time is infinite, are there not an equally infinite arrangement of the energy that exists in the universe.

Evolution assumes that once there were Tyrannosaurus Rex once roamed this planet, yet would you suggest that once a particular individual Tyrannosaurus Rex died, it would be reincarnated over and over again?  Why so?  Why would there not be an infinite variety of other life, and non-life, forms that would evolve, but not ever by necessity the same form twice?



George
 

Offline thebrain13

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #3 on: 15/09/2006 02:16:59 »
Whatever particular trex existed in the past, will eventually exist again exact weight height color personality and environment, he will die the same and be reborn over and over and over. Whatever has happened can and will happen again.

Whatever event occurs, means that, that event is possible. Granted, that it is possible, that it happened before, guarentees that it can happen again, over a long enough period of time.

An infinite amount of life forms is impossible. Lets say, you take a lifeform that has a horse head, dolphin fins, a human brain, and 17 arms. That particular combination will probably never happen. I guess its possible, it could theoretically exist. All I know is if it did exist, it would exist an infinite amount of times more and if it never existed, it will never exist.

Eventually all tiny differences will be exhausted, somewhere down the line the events of the universe will have to repeat itself, just by meer chance. That very moment it repeats itself given a completely deterministic set of physical laws(which I believe in) will cause the inevitable repetition of previous events for all time. And hence your brief existence in an infinite amount of time becomes a possible.
 

another_someone

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #4 on: 15/09/2006 13:55:57 »
quote:
Originally posted by thebrain13
Whatever particular trex existed in the past, will eventually exist again exact weight height color personality and environment, he will die the same and be reborn over and over and over. Whatever has happened can and will happen again.

Whatever event occurs, means that, that event is possible. Granted, that it is possible, that it happened before, guarentees that it can happen again, over a long enough period of time.

An infinite amount of life forms is impossible. Lets say, you take a lifeform that has a horse head, dolphin fins, a human brain, and 17 arms. That particular combination will probably never happen. I guess its possible, it could theoretically exist. All I know is if it did exist, it would exist an infinite amount of times more and if it never existed, it will never exist.

Eventually all tiny differences will be exhausted, somewhere down the line the events of the universe will have to repeat itself, just by meer chance. That very moment it repeats itself given a completely deterministic set of physical laws(which I believe in) will cause the inevitable repetition of previous events for all time. And hence your brief existence in an infinite amount of time becomes a possible.



I think you have too narrow a view of what is possible, even with regard to life.

What is life?  Is not life simply information - i.e. genetic information (not necessarily DNA, but any means by which complex information can evolve).  The question is not about how the heads or hands an animal may have not all life forms have either; but how many permutations of genetic information can be generated (this even assuming that all universes must have some life in them).



George
 

Offline thebrain13

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #5 on: 15/09/2006 21:55:09 »
it doesnt matter what form of complexity you choose to look at, wether it is heads and arms, genetic permutations, anything you choose. Complexity always has a limit. Eventually, only eventually, a Banana will run out of ways to taste.
 

another_someone

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #6 on: 15/09/2006 22:07:28 »
quote:
Originally posted by thebrain13

it doesnt matter what form of complexity you choose to look at, wether it is heads and arms, genetic permutations, anything you choose. Complexity always has a limit. Eventually, only eventually, a Banana will run out of ways to taste.



This is only true if one has a finite number of components, and a finite number of positions in which they can be located.  If one assumes that time is infinite, then why not the other parameters - and if they are infinite, then the number of permutations must also be infinite.

There are two currently favoured scenarios with the Big Bang theory (although it is by no means certain that this theory will be the final model of cosmology).  One theory assumes the universe will expand perpetually, in which case we shall never come back to where we are, because the future universe will always be bigger (and thus cooler) then the current universe.  The other theory assumes assumes that the universe will end in a Big Crunch, but that there may be future Big Bangs but even if there are future Big Bangs, they are unlikely to have exactly the same energy as the previous Big Bang, and so the universe they create will contain different energy, and the history of the universe will be different.



George
« Last Edit: 15/09/2006 22:13:36 by another_someone »
 

Offline thebrain13

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #7 on: 16/09/2006 00:59:13 »
I think one of the hardest questions in physics to answer is, how does the universe become "lumpy" in the first place.

I believe whatever theory eventually will guide "lumpyness" will be bound by the same principle I discussed earlier. There will eventually run out of ways to be different even in a universe with infinite components and places to put them. The universe can only be so lumpy.

Even though the universe may have an infinite amount of material and an infinite amount of places, there will eventually run out of ways to distribute it differently, so eventually everything will just have to repeat itself, in a perfectly semetrical manner. For example I believe that in a given distance and direction say 9 trillion lightyears to my left, there is a person typing this very instant, thinking, moving, and looking exactly like me. And because there is someone 9 trillion lightyears to my left, means there is also someone 9 trillion lightyears to my right. We are one in the same.

It is impossible for me to ever encounter my other being, and it is impossible for us to affect or break our simmetry because we are the same, hence we do the same. If I head off in a spaceship to go meet myself, Ill be dissapointed when I arrive, to find that, he had the same idea and left awhile ago.

So even though the universe is infinite by definition you could say that it is finite in nature, because when you really think about, there is no difference between this scenario and the one where there is one universe, and it just loops on itself, like walking around the earth, to arrive where you just started.
 

Offline gecko

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #8 on: 16/09/2006 02:16:51 »
you say that eventually a banana will run out of ways to taste.

in an infinite universe, i dont think thats true.

however, you sort of proove your point if you instead say:

in an infinite universe, eventually a banana will taste the same twice

get it?

sorry guys this is way past my limits.
 

another_someone

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #9 on: 16/09/2006 03:20:02 »
quote:
Originally posted by thebrain13
I think one of the hardest questions in physics to answer is, how does the universe become "lumpy" in the first place.

I believe whatever theory eventually will guide "lumpyness" will be bound by the same principle I discussed earlier. There will eventually run out of ways to be different even in a universe with infinite components and places to put them. The universe can only be so lumpy.



I don't see it.

Even if the principles by which the universe becomes lumpy are the same, if the environment in which this principle applies is different, then the lumps will be different (just as two different stars may be superficially similar by the mechanisms the operate, but the different masses of the stars will cause those stars to follow different histories, so too with two different universes that are even slightly different in mass).

quote:

Even though the universe may have an infinite amount of material and an infinite amount of places, there will eventually run out of ways to distribute it differently, so eventually everything will just have to repeat itself, in a perfectly semetrical manner. For example I believe that in a given distance and direction say 9 trillion lightyears to my left, there is a person typing this very instant, thinking, moving, and looking exactly like me. And because there is someone 9 trillion lightyears to my left, means there is also someone 9 trillion lightyears to my right. We are one in the same.



But, if such a hypothetical person who lives 9 trillion light years to your left will look up at the sky, he will see to his right the mirror image of the stars to see to your left, and because he sees the mirror image, and because that is to his right what is to your left, so his view of his universe is not exactly the same as your view of your universe so you no longer have an exact copy.  The fact that the sky surrounding this person is different to the sky surrounding you will also mean that he may be exposed to different cosmic radiation, and this may cause subtle random differences on his planet to the things happening on ours planet.  All of these will prevent his planet, and thus his environment, and thus his life, from being totally identical to your life.





George
 

Offline thebrain13

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #10 on: 16/09/2006 22:24:45 »
I dont understand why there would be any subtle difference, both skys are exactly the same over each persons head.

Gecko, thats exactly my point. eventually in an infinite universe, two bananas will taste exactly the same. I think I meant to say a banana will eventually run out of ways to taste(different). Which is essentially the same thing.
 

another_someone

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #11 on: 16/09/2006 22:55:08 »
quote:
Originally posted by thebrain13

I dont understand why there would be any subtle difference, both skys are exactly the same over each persons head.



Let me give you a simplistic analogy.

If there is a road running east-west, and two men are sitting a mile apart on the north side of the road, and each facing south.  Because of the design of the road, the scene they see ahead of them is absolutely identical.

A car travels from east to west along the road.  As the car passes the first man, it continues until it reaches the halfway point between the two men, mile for each man.

The man on the east end of the road will see the back of the car receding from his right, while the man on the west end of the road will see that same car from the front, and approaching from his left.



George
 

Offline Simmer

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #12 on: 17/09/2006 15:10:10 »
quote:
Originally posted by thebrain13


This is what I assume. Time cant end, there can always be a next year, even if the earth explodes, the universe stops moving, all the energy is used up, there will always be a next thousand, million, billion, trillion on and on and on years. Time is infinite. So given that time is infinite, what are the chances that we exist at only this one specific point in time? I guess the equation would be our lifespan divided by infinity, in otherwords that chance is infinantly small, or that thought (which is assumed by everyone) is impossible........

...... eventually the right amounts of carbon nitrogen oxygen hydrogen etc will collect on earth, the sun will burn just hot enough and you will exist once again, even if it takes a trillion trillion trillion trillion years.

So thats how I know einstein, me, you, and george washington cant truely die. They existed once, and they will exist again......



Interesting argument but IMO it falls down by assuming too many infinites.  

I'm not sure whether time will end or not but I do think there is a finite amount of energy/matter in an expanding universe.  Therefore eventually, in fact quite soon by your timescales, there will be no suns and therefore no life as we know it (Jim).  

Probably no matter either in the 10^48 years you estimate this might take to come about, the half life of the atomic neutron is thought to be less than a trillionth of that! http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/particles/proton.html
 

Offline thebrain13

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #13 on: 18/09/2006 04:14:15 »
To another someone, your analogy is not what im talking about. your assuming there are only two people one road and one car. If my truly identical people were viewing a road, they would both view a car coming from the left, and they would both view a car receading to the right. your distance 1 half mile between the two (identical men) were sitting would prove to be an important number. The guy to the right, would see a man, half a mile to the right of him as well. In fact he would (if he could) view an infinite amount of men spaced 1 half mile apart for eternity.

This analogy is much more accurate, picture a street where all the houses are identical, each house has the exact same view of each others neighbors.

And to simmer, to say I assume too many things are infinite, kind of defeats my entire point. There is absolutely nothing, I believe which is not infinite. You cant say, well time is infinite but energy is not, space may have a finite dimention, but the matter in it is limited, but.... no you cant pick and choose. I am saying absolutely nothing that exists today is finite, it has to be infinite, if it wasnt, why didnt it run out a long time ago?...... think about that

Wether or not the universe is expanding(right now) or not, I could not answer. But I know, that if you wait long enough the universe will inevitably become static.


For example if there was a big bang, a big crunch, a big bang, and over and over, each with equal magnitude. You could say that is ultimately static, for the universe wouldnt change, from the time period of each cycle to the next.

THE UNIVERSE IS NO FLUKE!

 

another_someone

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #14 on: 18/09/2006 04:34:05 »
quote:
Originally posted by thebrain13
To another someone, your analogy is not what im talking about. your assuming there are only two people one road and one car. If my truly identical people were viewing a road, they would both view a car coming from the left, and they would both view a car receading to the right. your distance 1 half mile between the two (identical men) were sitting would prove to be an important number. The guy to the right, would see a man, half a mile to the right of him as well. In fact he would (if he could) view an infinite amount of men spaced 1 half mile apart for eternity.

This analogy is much more accurate, picture a street where all the houses are identical, each house has the exact same view of each others neighbors.



I was assuming that the street would have each house being identical.

What I was saying is that however far apart the two people are, there must be some point in between them that is equidistant from both of them, and for that point, there can not be an identical view that both observers have (if fact, even if the point is not equidistant between them, if that point exists on a line somewhere between the two observers, then the two observers cannot have the same view of that point).

I was not assuming that there are only two people, I am only assuming that there must be at least two people, and we can take as an example what those two people will see.  Whatever can be shown to be true for those two people, can be extrapolated to all the other people that may exist in our two worlds.



George
 

Offline bostjan

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #15 on: 18/09/2006 08:22:03 »
When you die you stop living.  What makes you you is your genetics and your environment.  If another creature had the same genetics and environment as you, it would be you, and behave as you are right now.  But with no way to distinguish the time you exist from the other time you exist, they must be the same.  Thus, you live once and then you die, and that's the end of you.  Everything in the universe has to deal with it's finite nature and so do we, it's simple logic, really.  It's not unfortunate nor ugly.  It's a beautiful thing and it is very fortunate that we have this life to enjoy, so stop worrying about death, which is inevitable, and just have a good time with life, which you have now. ;)
 

another_someone

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #16 on: 18/09/2006 11:49:45 »
quote:
Originally posted by bostjan
What makes you you is your genetics and your environment.  If another creature had the same genetics and environment as you, it would be you, and behave as you are right now.  But with no way to distinguish the time you exist from the other time you exist, they must be the same.  Thus, you live once and then you die, and that's the end of you.  Everything in the universe has to deal with it's finite nature and so do we, it's simple logic, really.  It's not unfortunate nor ugly.  It's a beautiful thing and it is very fortunate that we have this life to enjoy, so stop worrying about death, which is inevitable, and just have a good time with life, which you have now. ;)



But, as you say, a key part of what makes us is our environment, and a key part of our environment is made up of other human beings, so whether by the influence upon the genetics of others, or by influence upon the environment of others, our future influence does not wholly die with the death of our body.

But that is trailing off the subject.



George
 

Offline thebrain13

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #17 on: 18/09/2006 18:36:51 »
Another someone, if there was a point equidistant between two observers my universe. Only one could look at that specific point directly, unless somebody has eyes in the back of their head. All observers would be looking in the same direction at all times. If one of the observers is looking specifically at the point, and then continues to look a little farther, he would see the back of another mans head, if he could peer through his head, he would see another point the same distance away from the other man as it is from him. Every observer has the same view.

To Bostjan, I disagree that the universe is finite. And I assure you Im not worried about death, cause I know that cant happen. And I am trying to have a good time with this life, that way I dont mess it up for eternity.
 

Offline thebrain13

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #18 on: 16/09/2006 22:24:45 »
I dont understand why there would be any subtle difference, both skys are exactly the same over each persons head.

Gecko, thats exactly my point. eventually in an infinite universe, two bananas will taste exactly the same. I think I meant to say a banana will eventually run out of ways to taste(different). Which is essentially the same thing.
 

another_someone

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #19 on: 16/09/2006 22:55:08 »
quote:
Originally posted by thebrain13

I dont understand why there would be any subtle difference, both skys are exactly the same over each persons head.



Let me give you a simplistic analogy.

If there is a road running east-west, and two men are sitting a mile apart on the north side of the road, and each facing south.  Because of the design of the road, the scene they see ahead of them is absolutely identical.

A car travels from east to west along the road.  As the car passes the first man, it continues until it reaches the halfway point between the two men, mile for each man.

The man on the east end of the road will see the back of the car receding from his right, while the man on the west end of the road will see that same car from the front, and approaching from his left.



George
 

Offline Simmer

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #20 on: 17/09/2006 15:10:10 »
quote:
Originally posted by thebrain13


This is what I assume. Time cant end, there can always be a next year, even if the earth explodes, the universe stops moving, all the energy is used up, there will always be a next thousand, million, billion, trillion on and on and on years. Time is infinite. So given that time is infinite, what are the chances that we exist at only this one specific point in time? I guess the equation would be our lifespan divided by infinity, in otherwords that chance is infinantly small, or that thought (which is assumed by everyone) is impossible........

...... eventually the right amounts of carbon nitrogen oxygen hydrogen etc will collect on earth, the sun will burn just hot enough and you will exist once again, even if it takes a trillion trillion trillion trillion years.

So thats how I know einstein, me, you, and george washington cant truely die. They existed once, and they will exist again......



Interesting argument but IMO it falls down by assuming too many infinites.  

I'm not sure whether time will end or not but I do think there is a finite amount of energy/matter in an expanding universe.  Therefore eventually, in fact quite soon by your timescales, there will be no suns and therefore no life as we know it (Jim).  

Probably no matter either in the 10^48 years you estimate this might take to come about, the half life of the atomic neutron is thought to be less than a trillionth of that! http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/particles/proton.html
 

Offline thebrain13

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #21 on: 18/09/2006 04:14:15 »
To another someone, your analogy is not what im talking about. your assuming there are only two people one road and one car. If my truly identical people were viewing a road, they would both view a car coming from the left, and they would both view a car receading to the right. your distance 1 half mile between the two (identical men) were sitting would prove to be an important number. The guy to the right, would see a man, half a mile to the right of him as well. In fact he would (if he could) view an infinite amount of men spaced 1 half mile apart for eternity.

This analogy is much more accurate, picture a street where all the houses are identical, each house has the exact same view of each others neighbors.

And to simmer, to say I assume too many things are infinite, kind of defeats my entire point. There is absolutely nothing, I believe which is not infinite. You cant say, well time is infinite but energy is not, space may have a finite dimention, but the matter in it is limited, but.... no you cant pick and choose. I am saying absolutely nothing that exists today is finite, it has to be infinite, if it wasnt, why didnt it run out a long time ago?...... think about that

Wether or not the universe is expanding(right now) or not, I could not answer. But I know, that if you wait long enough the universe will inevitably become static.


For example if there was a big bang, a big crunch, a big bang, and over and over, each with equal magnitude. You could say that is ultimately static, for the universe wouldnt change, from the time period of each cycle to the next.

THE UNIVERSE IS NO FLUKE!

 

another_someone

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #22 on: 18/09/2006 04:34:05 »
quote:
Originally posted by thebrain13
To another someone, your analogy is not what im talking about. your assuming there are only two people one road and one car. If my truly identical people were viewing a road, they would both view a car coming from the left, and they would both view a car receading to the right. your distance 1 half mile between the two (identical men) were sitting would prove to be an important number. The guy to the right, would see a man, half a mile to the right of him as well. In fact he would (if he could) view an infinite amount of men spaced 1 half mile apart for eternity.

This analogy is much more accurate, picture a street where all the houses are identical, each house has the exact same view of each others neighbors.



I was assuming that the street would have each house being identical.

What I was saying is that however far apart the two people are, there must be some point in between them that is equidistant from both of them, and for that point, there can not be an identical view that both observers have (if fact, even if the point is not equidistant between them, if that point exists on a line somewhere between the two observers, then the two observers cannot have the same view of that point).

I was not assuming that there are only two people, I am only assuming that there must be at least two people, and we can take as an example what those two people will see.  Whatever can be shown to be true for those two people, can be extrapolated to all the other people that may exist in our two worlds.



George
 

Offline bostjan

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #23 on: 18/09/2006 08:22:03 »
When you die you stop living.  What makes you you is your genetics and your environment.  If another creature had the same genetics and environment as you, it would be you, and behave as you are right now.  But with no way to distinguish the time you exist from the other time you exist, they must be the same.  Thus, you live once and then you die, and that's the end of you.  Everything in the universe has to deal with it's finite nature and so do we, it's simple logic, really.  It's not unfortunate nor ugly.  It's a beautiful thing and it is very fortunate that we have this life to enjoy, so stop worrying about death, which is inevitable, and just have a good time with life, which you have now. ;)
 

another_someone

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Re: Creationism and death
« Reply #24 on: 18/09/2006 11:49:45 »
quote:
Originally posted by bostjan
What makes you you is your genetics and your environment.  If another creature had the same genetics and environment as you, it would be you, and behave as you are right now.  But with no way to distinguish the time you exist from the other time you exist, they must be the same.  Thus, you live once and then you die, and that's the end of you.  Everything in the universe has to deal with it's finite nature and so do we, it's simple logic, really.  It's not unfortunate nor ugly.  It's a beautiful thing and it is very fortunate that we have this life to enjoy, so stop worrying about death, which is inevitable, and just have a good time with life, which you have now. ;)



But, as you say, a key part of what makes us is our environment, and a key part of our environment is made up of other human beings, so whether by the influence upon the genetics of others, or by influence upon the environment of others, our future influence does not wholly die with the death of our body.

But that is trailing off the subject.



George
 

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Re: Creationism and death
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