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Author Topic: FAO Exodus  (Read 14784 times)

another_someone

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #25 on: 23/09/2006 12:59:38 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
The death penalty will remain so everyone needs to get used to it.



The death penalty will remain somewhere in the world, not least in those countries that cannot afford to build lots of prisons (so much cheaper storing corpses than trying to keep people locked up for decades), but equally there are an increasing number of wealthy countries who do not have the death penalty.

Ofcourse, pseudo States, such as the Mafia, and other organisations that consider they have their own judicial process but cannot imprison people, will exclusively rely on the death penalty.  Beyond that, we also see countries such as the USA and Israel relying on extra-judicial executions; so yes, in the wider context, there is no doubt that the death penalty will remain part of the judicial process of most European countries.



George
 

Offline Gaia

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #26 on: 23/09/2006 13:29:12 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28

As an adult you have to take responsibilty. If you are foolish enough to murder someone while being fully aware of the consequences i think death is nothing more than you deserve. I do, however, think that it is wrong that some people get the death penalty and others get life. I would like to see capital crimes dealt with by death everytime and very swiftly. I think it's wrong to keep someone incarcerated for years before carrying out the sentence of death. That is no better than torture.



What about miscarriages of justice? And would you then charge the people responsible for the prosecution with manslaughter?

Gaia  xxx
 

Offline Karen W.

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #27 on: 23/09/2006 13:37:01 »
I hate the idea of anyone taking a life I know it's a fact and it happens but that doesn't mean I agree. There was a time in my life when I felt it was acceptable but as I have come round in my own self evolution so to speak, I find the taste bitter and unacceptable to palate... It imposes too much on others to do what we are punishing the offender for ,, Humaine  I don't think so and I like to think the best way to teach is through modeling and setting an examples!

Karen
 

Offline Gaia

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #28 on: 23/09/2006 13:56:37 »
I am SO glad that we don't have the death penalty in the UK!!! Actually, I vaguely remember that we might still have it for treason. The USA has an appalling record, not least Texas, home of Dubbya. Karen, you're brave in facing up to and question your own personal beliefs/views, it was a courageous thing to do.

Gaia  xxx
« Last Edit: 23/09/2006 16:26:23 by Gaia »
 

Offline Karen W.

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #29 on: 23/09/2006 14:12:22 »
You guys don't have the death penalty there.. Wow Thats cool! I hate Killing Makes me physically ill, even in movies and I know full well  they aren't real, but the effect on me might as well be... Did you ever see pulp fiction...John Travolta... Yikes gruesome sick demented.. I puked for hours it was horrible and scarey that that could be entertaining..

Karen
 

Offline Andy28

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #30 on: 23/09/2006 15:56:56 »
quote:
Originally posted by Gaia

quote:
Originally posted by Andy28

As an adult you have to take responsibilty. If you are foolish enough to murder someone while being fully aware of the consequences i think death is nothing more than you deserve. I do, however, think that it is wrong that some people get the death penalty and others get life. I would like to see capital crimes dealt with by death everytime and very swiftly. I think it's wrong to keep someone incarcerated for years before carrying out the sentence of death. That is no better than torture.



What about miscarriages of justice? And would you then charge the people responsible for the prosecution with manslaughter?

Gaia  xxx



Miscarriages of justice occur very rarely these days since the introduction of DNA. It does remain a sad fact of life that someone who is innocent will occasionally be put to death though.
 

another_someone

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #31 on: 23/09/2006 16:06:40 »
quote:
Originally posted by Gaia

I am SO glad that we don't have the death penalty in the UK!!! Actually, I vaguely remember that we might still have it for treason. The USA has an appalling record, not least Texas, home of Dubbya. Karen, you're brave in facing up to and questioning your own personal beliefs/views, it was a courageous thing to do.

Gaia  xxx



No, I think treason was the last thing to go (not that long ago), but I think it has gone (in fact, for a while I think there remained an exception for treason during time of war, but I think it was the current Government that actually removed that last one).



George
 

Offline Andy28

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #32 on: 23/09/2006 16:11:15 »
Karen you say you hate killing but that is what the death penalty was brought in to prevent.  The idea was to scare murderers into not commiting the act. The reason that it has failed is it is'nt mandatory - Some killers are handed the death sentence and some are'nt. If it was Known that the penalty for murder was death every time and the method was the electric chair straight after conviction, i bet there would be very few murders.
 

another_someone

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #33 on: 23/09/2006 16:14:58 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
Miscarriages of justice occur very rarely these days since the introduction of DNA. It does remain a sad fact of life that someone who is innocent will occasionally be put to death though.



This is naοve to say the least.  All that DNA (which is itself only as good as the technicians who use it) tells you is that someone was at the scene of the crime, it does not tell you what they did, and in many cases there is simply no DNA.

Are you suggesting that a person accused of murder should be acquitted in the absence of DNA evidence?  A great number of murderers would be let free on that basis?

But often the issue with murder is not even what the person did, but what was their intent (a little analogous with rape) – were they acting in self defence?  Was it an accident?   Was it natural causes (just look at some of the parents convicted of killing their children based not on positive evidence, but upon the absence of any alternative evidence to murder)? Were they in a state of mind to be responsible for their actions?  Were they merely a witness to something they did not take part in?  DNA can rarely give the answers to these questions.  And then there are people who have been convicted of murder when there has been no body found, and the supposed scene of the crime is unknown – what will DNA tell you about that?



George
 

another_someone

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #34 on: 23/09/2006 16:37:12 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
Karen you say you hate killing but that is what the death penalty was brought in to prevent.  The idea was to scare murderers into not commiting the act. The reason that it has failed is it is'nt mandatory - Some killers are handed the death sentence and some are'nt. If it was Known that the penalty for murder was death every time and the method was the electric chair straight after conviction, i bet there would be very few murders.



The death penalty (to be honest, this is probably true about much of the system of judicial punishment) is about judicial vengeance – none of it has ever been effective as a deterrent, and of all things, the death penalty is the least effective of all.  In a sense, while one may be scornful of judicial vengeance, it has its value insofar as it is intended to deter people from taking the law into their own hands (i.e. in the old days, many crimes lead to family feuds and perpetual vendettas and massive casualties amongst members of the families involved – the idea of judicial punishment was to take the element of vendetta out of the hands of individuals, and place it in the hands of the State, and so break the cycle of vendetta).

Judicial punishment will almost never act as a deterrent, at least not of itself, firstly because those criminals who do commit the kind of crime where they look at a judicial profit and loss sheet, would not anticipate getting caught – however harsh the punishment might be, it is useless if people do not expect to get punished at all.  The reality is that the vast majority of violent crime is committed when people are in some way under stress, or under the influence of alcohol, and they simply do not make judicial profit and loss assessment (in fact, it is not uncommon in cases of murder for the perpetrator, having committed the crime under a state of stress, to then hand himself in to the police, and be quite happy at the thought of joining in death the person whose life they took – and quite possibly, since most murders happen within the family, the victim was someone they loved despite having taken their life).  How would the death penalty help against people who murder, and then commit suicide?

The way combat crimes of violence is to teach people to manage and deal with stress.  Threat of punishment only tries to add to that stress by giving the person even more to fear, rather than giving them a way to deal with their lives without fear.  In the end, adding more fear into the life of a person who is already at breaking point will not work.

Ofcourse, this is very different from using punishment as a deterrent against crimes of profit, but these are mostly white collar crimes, and crimes of property; they are not in the most part crimes of violence (although I am not saying that violence has never been used for profit – but most acts of violence that are actually committed are not for profit).

One final point – the murder rate in the UK did not rise after the abolition of the death penalty (that was something that was carefully monitored at the time, when the death penalty was initially suspended in 1964, and the death penalty was only abolished 1969 after it was seen to have no discernible effect upon the murder rate.



George
« Last Edit: 23/09/2006 16:45:36 by another_someone »
 

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #35 on: 23/09/2006 16:59:03 »
I understand with what it tried to establish, and I understand  why it went wrong.. the only reason I hate it is that it takes another's life and puts the executioner in the roll of delivering the penalty,, really creepy I like life and still don't like the death penalty,,

Karen
« Last Edit: 25/09/2006 06:20:12 by Karen W. »
 

Offline Gaia

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #36 on: 23/09/2006 17:48:03 »
This thread is titled FAO Exodus. Did Exodus (I assume that's a user name) ever read the thread? Shows how nosey/interested the rest of us are [:I] Mind you, it is a public forum.

Gaia  xxx
 

another_someone

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #37 on: 23/09/2006 19:03:12 »
quote:
Originally posted by Gaia

This thread is titled FAO Exodus. Did Exodus (I assume that's a user name) ever read the thread? Shows how nosey/interested the rest of us are [:I] Mind you, it is a public forum.

Gaia  xxx


It also shows that you have not yet learn't tro use the features of the site. :)

Look up the members list, and find Exodus, and you will find he has not logged on since 11th August this year (and thus thread was created on the 19th Septemver - need I say more). [:p]



George
« Last Edit: 23/09/2006 19:03:57 by another_someone »
 

Offline Gaia

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #38 on: 23/09/2006 20:27:26 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

quote:
Originally posted by Gaia

This thread is titled FAO Exodus. Did Exodus (I assume that's a user name) ever read the thread? Shows how nosey/interested the rest of us are [:I] Mind you, it is a public forum.

Gaia  xxx


It also shows that you have not yet learn't tro use the features of the site. :)

Look up the members list, and find Exodus, and you will find he has not logged on since 11th August this year (and thus thread was created on the 19th Septemver - need I say more). [:p]



George




miaow, especially as it was you asked me to register here in the first place!!!

Gaia  xxx
 

Offline Andy28

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #39 on: 23/09/2006 21:50:22 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
Miscarriages of justice occur very rarely these days since the introduction of DNA. It does remain a sad fact of life that someone who is innocent will occasionally be put to death though.



This is naοve to say the least.  All that DNA (which is itself only as good as the technicians who use it) tells you is that someone was at the scene of the crime, it does not tell you what they did, and in many cases there is simply no DNA.

Are you suggesting that a person accused of murder should be acquitted in the absence of DNA evidence?  A great number of murderers would be let free on that basis?

But often the issue with murder is not even what the person did, but what was their intent (a little analogous with rape) – were they acting in self defence?  Was it an accident?   Was it natural causes (just look at some of the parents convicted of killing their children based not on positive evidence, but upon the absence of any alternative evidence to murder)? Were they in a state of mind to be responsible for their actions?  Were they merely a witness to something they did not take part in?  DNA can rarely give the answers to these questions.  And then there are people who have been convicted of murder when there has been no body found, and the supposed scene of the crime is unknown – what will DNA tell you about that?



George





I see what you are saying but the death penalty should ALWAYS be an option to the courts. Ted Bundy? Need i say more?
 

Offline Andy28

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #40 on: 23/09/2006 22:04:17 »
quote:
Originally posted by Karen W.

I agree with what it tried to establish, ansd I agree with why it went wrong.. the only reason I hate it is that it takes anothers life and puts the executioner in the roll of delivering the penalty,, really creeopy I like life and still don't like the death penalty,,

Karen



Karen the executioner is never known as three prison officials push buttons simulaneously.
 

Offline Karen W.

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #41 on: 24/09/2006 03:37:36 »
That seems even worse now, three people have to live with the guilt that it could have been them that administered the lethal dose. It still does not change my opinion.. I've tried to raise my children otherwise. Because two wrongs don't make a right or bring back the life that was taken away to begin with.... Such a shame that people have to use this as a measure to teach another human a lesson...and feel justice served through yet another life being ended. How do you teach a child? By modeling 1rst and foremost! How do you tell your child that taking a another life is wrong and not acceptable and then show your child that there are exceptions to that rule.. Yes we don't carry it out by our own hand, but we pass it on to a higher authority thus some how making it more legal and proper some how justifying that and eye for and eye is really the true law!

   I have sat on both sides of the fence on this during a period in my life where my best friend was brutally murdered by her husband.. some years later 4 of my female cousin were murdered as they gathered to a family get together and one of their husbands went crazy with a gun and started spraying bullets all through the house killing 4 of the sisters and killing 2 very innocent babies in the spray!.... I am again crying because when my friend died I wanted to see that man pay... I somehow thought it would ease the pain... but it doesn't.. It only Leaves questions unanswered about about life and everything you believe in.. I have yet been very close to another murder of a couple members of my family which I won't go into again here it is posted in another forum.. I am 46 years old and had many members of my family , Cousins killed.. They walked a different path then I and my family siblings etc. But I have learned that more good is done through rehab and incarceration then taking another life.. Yes I have been for the death penalty and agaisnt it. eye for and eye does nothing but confuse and lay a heavy burden on others...More time should be spent taking care of individuals with problems and teaching our youth about feeling, conflict management, anger management and other skills that can aid in the avoidance of these problems.. I know that everything can't be solved this way.. but it would go long way to creating children who are compassionant and skilled and loving citizens in our world.We need more resources available to adults with easier access to this help free or no cost counciling things like this.. I am sorry I have been touched rather deeply by this topic and it holds a truth for me that came through close first hand experience with victims and their slayers..so I have several pieces of my heart vested in my opinions so you may feel I am biased, you may be right.. but I will stand firm in my own knowledge that an eye for an eye is not a great thing to teach or practice or for our children to grow up learning and seeing!


Karen
 

Offline Gaia

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #42 on: 24/09/2006 11:17:03 »
quote:
Originally posted by Karen W.

That seems even worse now, three people have to live with the guilt that it could have been them that administered the lethal dose. It still does not change my opinion.. I've tried to raise my children otherwise. Because two wrongs don't make a right or bring back the life that was taken away to begin with.... Such a shame that people have to use this as a measure to teach another human a lesson...and feel justice served through yet another life being ended. How do you teach a child? By modeling 1rst and foremost! How do you tell your child that taking a another life is wrong and not acceptable and then show your child that there are exceptions to that rule.. Yes we don't carry it out by our own hand, but we pass it on to a higher authority thus some how making it more legal and proper some how justifying that and eye for and eye is really the true law!

   I have sat on both sides of the fence on this during a period in my life where my best friend was brutally murdered by her husband.. some years later 4 of my female cousin were murdered as they gathered to a family get together and one of their husbands went crazy with a gun and started spraying bullets all through the house killing 4 of the sisters and killing 2 very innocent babies in the spray!.... I am again crying because when my friend died I wanted to see that man pay... I somehow thought it would ease the pain... but it doesn't.. It only Leaves questions unanswered about about life and everything you believe in.. I have yet been very close to another murder of a couple members of my family which I won't go into again here it is posted in another forum.. I am 46 years old and had many members of my family , Cousins killed.. They walked a different path then I and my family siblings etc. But I have learned that more good is done through rehab and incarceration then taking another life.. Yes I have been for the death penalty and agaisnt it. eye for and eye does nothing but confuse and lay a heavy burden on others...More time should be spent taking care of individuals with problems and teaching our youth about feeling, conflict management, anger management and other skills that can aid in the avoidance of these problems.. I know that everything can't be solved this way.. but it would go long way to creating children who are compassionant and skilled and loving citizens in our world.We need more resources available to adults with easier access to this help free or no cost counciling things like this.. I am sorry I have been touched rather deeply by this topic and it holds a truth for me that came through close first hand experience with victims and their slayers..so I have several pieces of my heart vested in my opinions so you may feel I am biased, you may be right.. but I will stand firm in my own knowledge that an eye for an eye is not a great thing to teach or practice or for our children to grow up learning and seeing!


Karen



Karen, you're such a strong person to have gone thro' all that s**t and come out the other side with such a caring and compassionate view.

Murder is wrong, state-sanctioned murder doubly so because it can reinforce the vicious spiral. Also obscene is the legal system in some countries where the death penalty can be avoided by paying 'blood money'!!! It can even go so far as to value a women's life as worth half that of a man's. (I'll leave out the religious excuse here because that is interpretation rather than actual.)

Gaia  xxx
 

another_someone

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #43 on: 24/09/2006 12:57:05 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
I see what you are saying but the death penalty should ALWAYS be an option to the courts. Ted Bundy? Need i say more?



Not sure what you are saying with that?

I could bring Harold Shipman to mind - he took his own life in prison - so what does that prove?

That Ted Bundy committed his crimes despite being in a jurisdiction where capital punishment was in effect just demonstrates that capital punishment did not act as a deterrent in his case.



George
 

Offline Karen W.

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #44 on: 24/09/2006 15:11:17 »
[/quote]

Karen, you're such a strong person to have gone thro' all that s**t and come out the other side with such a caring and compassionate view.

Murder is wrong, state-sanctioned murder doubly so because it can reinforce the vicious spiral. Also obscene is the legal system in some countries where the death penalty can be avoided by paying 'blood money'!!! It can even go so far as to value a women's life as worth half that of a man's. (I'll leave out the religious excuse here because that is interpretation rather than actual.)

Gaia  xxx
[/quote]


Gaia, I know why I believe this to be true, the problem lies in the fact that some can not and will not ever see this view as they have never been there to experience this pain and the suffering from the other side.. You might think it accomplihes something and justice is served, but it is not... to me remembering those I have loved with all my heart and keeping those special memories untainted, is how I want to remember my loved ones and friend.My friend was a beautiful young women with so much life and she was here to bring great joy to many lives... and she did, I wish for her to always be remembered like that.. I do not want to add the senseless act of murder and revenge to her beautiful memory as that was not what she was about!! She was about Joy Life friendship smiles and beauty inside and out...

Karen
« Last Edit: 24/09/2006 15:13:57 by Karen W. »
 

Offline Andy28

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #45 on: 25/09/2006 04:13:20 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
I see what you are saying but the death penalty should ALWAYS be an option to the courts. Ted Bundy? Need i say more?



Not sure what you are saying with that?

I could bring Harold Shipman to mind - he took his own life in prison - so what does that prove?

That Ted Bundy committed his crimes despite being in a jurisdiction where capital punishment was in effect just demonstrates that capital punishment did not act as a deterrent in his case.



George




I agree it is'nt a deterrent.  The main reason for that is because the death penalty is'nt mandatory and most get off with a life senstance.  I don't think most americans care weather it deters anyway, it's all about paying what you owe.
 

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #46 on: 25/09/2006 04:32:40 »
Most americans do care, some do not! Most people do care some people do not!

Karen
 

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #47 on: 25/09/2006 04:39:58 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28

quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
I see what you are saying but the death penalty should ALWAYS be an option to the courts. Ted Bundy? Need i say more?



Not sure what you are saying with that?

I could bring Harold Shipman to mind - he took his own life in prison - so what does that prove?

That Ted Bundy committed his crimes despite being in a jurisdiction where capital punishment was in effect just demonstrates that capital punishment did not act as a deterrent in his case.



George




I agree it is'nt a deterrent.  The main reason for that is because the death penalty is'nt mandatory and most get off with a life senstance.  I don't think most americans care weather it deters anyway, it's all about paying what you owe.



No, I don't believe it to be a deterrent either.  THIS American does wish (as I'm sure the majority do) that is was more of a deterrent.  I was 12 and living in Tallahassee, Florida when Ted Bundy killed the Florida State University students.  It was a horribly scary time in our town.  I'm not really sure what my views on the death penalty are, I have mixed emotions about it.  I remember people being fed up with the amount of time Bundy was on death row.  I also remember the 'grown up's' complaining about their tax dollars supporting Bundy for so long. Actually, I was a grown up by the time he was executed. Some time during his stay on death row, the state was trying to pass mandatory seat belt laws.  I recall t-shirts that people wore that read "I'll buckle up when Bundy does".

Carolyn
 

another_someone

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #48 on: 25/09/2006 05:24:24 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
I agree it is'nt a deterrent.  The main reason for that is because the death penalty is'nt mandatory and most get off with a life senstance.  I don't think most americans care weather it deters anyway, it's all about paying what you owe.



I cannot speak for whether Americans do or don't care about whether it deters (I doubt they do not care, but it is not my place to speak on their behalf); but then what relevance has your argument with regard to deterrence?

As for paying what you owe – how do you pay for another persons life?  Do you really believe that a life for a life somehow clears a debt?  I very much doubt that the people who suffered most would feel they have any debt cleared by that means (Karen has already put forward her view on the matter, and she has got closer to actually feeling the loss, and whatever debt you may feel needs repaying, than either you or I).

The life of a loved one is not something that one would trade, and incur a debt that would be repaid – there is no credit and debit balance.

As for automatic death sentences, as has been said over and over again, most murderers do not think about the consequences of their actions when they commit murder, so no amount of deterrent will alter their behaviour (deterrent can only work when someone thinks through the consequences, and chooses not to incur those consequences).

Ted Bundy was somewhat different to your average murderer in that he was a serial killer (most murderers will only ever commit one act of murder in their lives – even when that one act might take the lives of several people).  Most murderers will act in a moment of anger, while the likes of Ted Bundy will act as a consequence of mental illness that leeds to an anti-social compulsion (no different in nature from kleptomania, Coprolalia, or any other compulsion (in his case it seems to have been necrophilia).  No amount of deterrent will stop such compulsive behaviour.  Mandatory capital punishment would not have made the slightest difference.

It is telling that far from having a deterrent effect, the USA has a higher murder rate than most countries that do not have capital punishment.  It probably is not so much a matter that capital punishment actually promotes murder (our own experience when capital punishment was removed was that it had zero impact in any form), but rather that countries that accept capital punishment have a generally higher tolerance of violence, and that this is reflected both in the way the citizens behave towards each other, and the way the State behaves towards its citizens.



George
 

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #49 on: 25/09/2006 06:46:02 »
So many killers like him are calculating smart devias and very cold, studies have shown that most serial killers and such leave clues behind them because they want to get caught, they don't care what the penalty is, its like a very dangerous game to them and as George said when they are in that kind of a state they don't care. These are people who don't value human life and more times then not any type of life.. let alone their own.. There is no punish for them in death because they already have died in a sense. Their life as that of others holds no value to them.. now this is just my humble opinion but most people who loose their self worth begin to stop valuing their own life which then sometimes leads to our high suicide rates. Maybe educating people and teaching them self worth and other life skills will empower more people to be better accepting of themslves as being able to have something to offer of themselves to others..to soceity!

Karen
 

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Re: FAO Exodus
« Reply #49 on: 25/09/2006 06:46:02 »

 

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