The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Imagination  (Read 3001 times)

Offline allan marsh

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 91
    • View Profile
Imagination
« on: 20/01/2015 20:55:06 »
Human's have evolved though imagination.
Do you consider this is one of the human senses ?


 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4696
  • Thanked: 153 times
  • life is too short to drink instant coffee
    • View Profile
Re: Imagination
« Reply #1 on: 21/01/2015 00:14:52 »
Not a sense, as it isn't an external input.
 

Offline tkadm30

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 904
  • Thanked: 7 times
    • View Profile
    • IsotopeSoftware
Re: Imagination
« Reply #2 on: 28/03/2016 11:54:08 »
"Nothing ever happens like you imagine it will…  but then again, if you don’t imagine, nothing ever happens at all." -John Green
 

Offline puppypower

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 553
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
Re: Imagination
« Reply #3 on: 28/03/2016 13:16:30 »
Imagination is a key aspect of free will, since imagination does not have to remain confined to natural cause and affect and therefore it is not necessarily predetermined by natural laws or cause and affect.

For example, will never see a mile long steel suspension bridge spontaneously appearing in nature, using only natural laws. Iron will prefer to oxidize. Iron will not spontaneous form specific alloys that then form filaments, which then wind with other filaments, which then self assemble into bridges.

To make that bridge, which is not a natural part of nature, we begin with imagination and use free will. To make it work in reality, we also need imagination to extrapolate natural laws, in ways that are feasible, but which are likely in the natural environment. We can use chemistry to reverse the oxides of iron ore into iron, adding alloying atoms fro added strength. We can then extrude molten filaments which are slowly quenched and wound by machines. These machines have no natural basis, but they follow the natural laws of science These were create with free will and imagination allowing to exist outside the realm of natural formation.

The above is an optimized view of imagination and free will. Imagination and free will is more often connected to choices that will deviate from natural laws in whole to part, from cradle to grave. We can imagine a bridge that is built only of spaghetti. This design may appear to work, in the imagination, and can be sketched on paper. But once it confronts the natural laws of hard reality, it will fail. This is free will and imagination, but it is not natural.

For example, promiscuous sexual behavior results in STD's, some of which are deadly. The STD's are part of a feedback loop and represents the potential between natural and unnatural design. It is the spaghetti bridge starting to snap. There is a natural cause and effect between imagination and free will, and how natural laws respond.

This is a spaghetti bridge. What needs to happen to make the spaghetti bridge work is science needs to step in and use imagination, grounded in cause and affect and natural laws, so it can sure up the spaghetti bridge with a scaffolding prosthesis. In the case of STD's the scaffold are medications.

Free will and the imagination, if natural, only needs one layer It does not need a prosthetic layer for scaffolding. If it needs a prosthetic layer it is not a natural extrapolation of nature laws. It is still imagination and free will, but it is unnatural in sense it can;t stand under natural conditions. 

I can fly to the moon, by flapping my arms like bird, in my imagination. This free will is not possible in reality based on natural laws. However, I can do this with free will in the matrix of imagination, since the imagination matrix is not limited to natural laws or cause and affect. If I attempted this is reality, it will not work due to the backlash from natural laws; potential is created. It might be possible, if I have the proper technology to act as prosthesis. I can be inside a space ship and flap my arms, while I sit in my seat, pretending to fly to the moon.

For me to say my original imaginary image and free will is natural, I need to ignore the prosthesis and make others ignore the prosthesis also. The camera focuses on me and my path to the moon, but it ignores the space-ship. It is used trick photography. That trick is also based on imagination, where cause and affect are ignored in favor a thinking my will power is natural by leaving out critical data. This can be done with politics and philosophy.  Imagination not only create things, but it can be used to mask things out.

The way you infer natural will power, is you take away all the scaffolding and prosthesis and see what is self standing. These are connected to natural laws and natural free will.
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3153
  • Thanked: 44 times
    • View Profile
Re: Imagination
« Reply #4 on: 29/03/2016 08:41:23 »
Things you imagine are just like the things you see, they are functions of brain activity and the brain activity is real regardless whether the imagination is real.   So are we imagining or is it real, because in a sense of brain function, it is real, it is only our eye function, that tells us it is not real and all in the head, but how do we know we are not ''imagining'' a dimension we can't see that is real.   If the thought is a wave or of sort, then the information is there to ''begin'' with , or is it?   


The universe is full of information we can't see, maybe imagination is this information we can't see, Einstein imagined information we can't see, maybe everything is real but we just don't see it.


A books falls off a table,

The religion believer, ''it was an act of God''

The scientist ,''it was the wind or some form of vibration''


The naturalist , '' it was a ghost''


The imagination , '' it was the invisible man''
 

added - I felt we needed a picture of my  imagination.















« Last Edit: 29/03/2016 08:54:50 by Thebox »
 

Offline puppypower

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 553
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
Re: Imagination
« Reply #5 on: 29/03/2016 13:29:55 »
The imagery is not confined to just cause and effect or to natural laws. I can imagine puppies, with capes, flying around my house like little supermen and little superwomen. I suppose, all the components of this imaginary image could have been seen previously in reality; puppies, capes and flying. However, these items have been assembled in a way that could not have been seen by me, since it is not practical and violates natural laws.

The imagination has a connected to free will. The imagination is the underlying matrix of free will, since this example shows it is possible to imagine things that can transcend natural laws. They may be viable or not, with our ego consciousness, capable of seeing an imaginary path that allows it to transcend natural laws. The imagination allowed civilization to form and appears to be relatively new in terms of collective human behavior. It may have taken imagination to make the first stone tools, but after that it can all be done by copying visual reality. Not much imagination was used until civilization forms. Then it becomes more wide spread.



The basis for the imagination is connected to how neurons are designed. The neuron will expend considerable energy; 90% of its energy, pumping and exchanging cations. Sodium ions accumulate on the outside and the Potassium ions accumulate on the inside. This sets up a dual potential; energy and entropy potential. The entropy potential is connected to the dual concentration gradient. The cations would prefer to increase entropy and blend into a uniform solution; if left to their own devices. The pumping action is lowering the entropy of the cations, setting a potential for their entropy to increase; back to the original uniform solution.

The firing of neurons and the movements of ionic currents, inside and out the neuron, reflect the lowering of cationic energy and the increase in cationic entropy. The potential is constantly restored by the pumping action and the neuron expanding ATP energy. The increase in entropy, as ionic currents due to firing, move through memory matrix, adds subtle variations and variety to the memory; imagination.

Natural instinct is more about the energy potential side of the potential. Animal instinct tends to act in terms of action and reaction in reality. The imagination is more designed to be connected to the needs of the global entropy potential of the brain.  It will add a randomizing element, as the entropy potential is lowered. This internal randomizing potential; constant need to increase entropy, may well be the projection behind the random universe POV. Like the flying puppies, we observe data and then the imagination randomizes so the elements no longer seems to have a cause and affect order. The question is it possible to have a collective human projection so a group of people appear to see this? The answer is yes.

In chemistry, entropy is a state variable, meaning the value of the entropy is dependent on the state of matter. Water at 25C and 1 atmosphere has a specific amount of entropy; 6.6177 J ˣ mol-1 ˣ K-1. This amount of entropy is not random but is specific to this state of water and will be measured the same by all labs. Collective imagination only requires the movement of imagination from one common state; entropy, to another. 

Say the imagination is lowering the entropy potential via a range of neurons. The memories impacted; common data base, leads to a new entropy state. This new state of neural memory, can be collective to human, due it being s chemical state, allowing collective or group imagination.

For example, we can have a group of people all believing in the god of trees. Nobody may have seen this god. It may be connected to the imagination, They all use a similar data base leading to a collective final entropy state. This can also be true of politics and science, since both tend to change with time; new states of entropy appear, as the data matrix evolves.

I have a lot of imagination. I generate a lot of ideas; entropy states. Some of this ability has to do with my consciously not allowing the brain potential to be expressed with mostly changes of energy. The more deprived one is, the fewer the options for firing neurons using sensory stimulus paths that can lower brain energy. The energy path are restricted. The brain compensates with a more active imagination; entropy paths.

Necessity is the mother of invention, makes use of this principle. Necessity sets up a wall to the natural flow of energy based on routine neural paths and sensory inductions. The brains free energy economy increase and will need to use the imagination matrix to lower the free enemy via entropy. This can then define new states, which can lead to a connection to cause and affect; invention. This allows the energy flow to resume, so the entropy potential can lower; practical effort with less brain storming.

It is not always wise to generate too much entropy, since it can place the memory in states of entropy, which may become unique to oneself. One can get too far ahead. However, since entropy is a state variable, it is theoretically possible to lower the entropy back to previous states.
« Last Edit: 29/03/2016 13:37:43 by puppypower »
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3153
  • Thanked: 44 times
    • View Profile
Re: Imagination
« Reply #6 on: 29/03/2016 14:39:41 »
The imagery is not confined to just cause and effect or to natural laws. I can imagine puppies, with capes, flying around my house like little supermen and little superwomen. I suppose, all the components of this imaginary image could have been seen previously in reality; puppies, capes and flying. However, these items have been assembled in a way that could not have been seen by me, since it is not practical and violates natural laws.




Indeed, but you have just manifested a wave, you have to ask yourself was that really your own thought and imagination or could it possibly be you have just decoded some information received, in reality we would see a superman flying dog to be a confused thought and consider it imagination, but imagination is not far short of  using only 0 and  1 for computer coding to create any reality on screen. The information in the computer is little difference to the information in our heads, they both use light/magnetism to create each reality.
Although we think the computer is not A.I, it still thinks, it awaits my commands then obeys my commands like a puppy.   The computer ''knows'' we are its creator and can turn the power off any time we like.


Now I imagine your Dog and it did not need  air to breath and was on a low gravity planet, now your ordinary earth dog would seem super, it could leap bounds and all sorts.


So to  imagine is not really to imagine , it is a confused perspective, something can always be related to any imaginary thought with logical thinking about that thought.


My imagination starts off imagination, but then it changes into something else when I logically think about what I imagined.   



 

Offline puppypower

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 553
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
Re: Imagination
« Reply #7 on: 29/03/2016 17:10:38 »
An interesting point about imagination is, although the output of the imagination a physical output phenomena of the brain, that is common to all humans, it is not subject to the philosophy of science. There is no way to verify what I am imagining, in the same way we can verify the sun will rise in the morning.

Unlike the sun rising, other scientists cannot see what is inside my imagination to verify. They will need to have faith that what I say is what I am imagining. Even if I can be trusted to honestly and accurately explain why I am imagining, my description still may not be enough for another scientist to have the same internal experience. There is a level of uniqueness to each of us that prevents verification by others 100%.

For example, I can imagine my favorite candidate winning the election. I can then accurately relate what is in my imagination. If the other person prefers another candidate, or is less enthusiast than me, or even anticipates a different connection to the candidate,  even if I explain my imagination, they may not be able to reproduce all the feelings and extrapolations.

The philosophy of science was develop to factor out the subjectivity that can occur within imagination, so what would be left would be  reproducible and verifiable. For example, say we all go into the woods at night to observe the forest. Some people may sense the spirits of the woods in their imagination, others the local ax murderer may be out there, or the headless horseman, or the sound in the bush is a bear, etc.. The scientific method is designed to eliminate all these things where we cannot agree. Since only one person senses the local ax murderer, that is eliminated. What is left, that all agree is verifiable by science; big tree. 

The philosophy science is not designed to deal with those things of the imagination, it was designed to ignore. This does not means we can't investigate the imagination, but it requires a modified scientific method that allows the local ax murderer and the headless horseman which not everyone will see.

For example, dreams make use of the imagination since the cause and affect between the imagery is not constrained to natural laws. Dreams are a common output phenomena of the human brain, with billions of data points, world wide. Yet our dreams are not reproducible and verifiable by a third party. Dreams are real and natural, but are not subject to the philosophy of science in a formal way. We can still deal with dreams and imagination, but not like a do with a rock or a bird. 

Relative to neurons, entropy and energy, the scientific method appears to deal better with the energy side. Seeing is believing, when it comes to science. Visual triggers are used to fire neurons based on a consistent input stimulus; control. The stimulus needs to impact each person the same. This is easier from the energy side of the neurons free energy, since entropy will mess that up.

The entropy side is historically the realm of religion. The entropy of the imagination keeps consciousness in a state of flux. The second law states that the entropy of the universe has to increase. Each second of time, therefore, needs to be different from the previous, since there is an increase in entropy. This conscious sense of continuos change and distinction in time, gives us the sense we are not automatons. The entropic side has traditional been the realm of religion. What religion believes are not subject to the scientific method. One would need the modified method that address energy and entropy, with entropy needing to be verified in the first person often as an isolate and unique event.
 

Offline Robcat

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 47
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • View Profile
Re: Imagination
« Reply #8 on: 29/03/2016 17:56:37 »
Thanks people for increasing my imagination.
I realise that all our senses are observing the world some millisecond after the actual event...that's well established.
As imagination happens within the brain a millisecond ahead of our senses.
Past, now,  and future,   are how our senses see the now, but our imagination now is ahead of what. We think of as reality.
I think I can imagine faster than the apparent "now"

Thanks again folks
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3153
  • Thanked: 44 times
    • View Profile
Re: Imagination
« Reply #9 on: 29/03/2016 19:14:44 »

I think I can imagine faster than the apparent "now"




That's because you are imagining you can   :)
 

Offline tkadm30

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 904
  • Thanked: 7 times
    • View Profile
    • IsotopeSoftware
Re: Imagination
« Reply #10 on: 04/05/2016 12:19:17 »
The imagination has a connected to free will. The imagination is the underlying matrix of free will, since this example shows it is possible to imagine things that can transcend natural laws. They may be viable or not, with our ego consciousness, capable of seeing an imaginary path that allows it to transcend natural laws. The imagination allowed civilization to form and appears to be relatively new in terms of collective human behavior. It may have taken imagination to make the first stone tools, but after that it can all be done by copying visual reality. Not much imagination was used until civilization forms. Then it becomes more wide spread.

Imagination is the main realm to free will: The imagination matrix is the capacity of the mind to hypercompute reality into free will. Imagination is pure freedom of the mind to transcend natural laws; Consciousness is the product of our imagination in life. Just like breathing is essential to us, imagination is essential to consciousness.   
« Last Edit: 04/05/2016 12:21:18 by tkadm30 »
 

Offline Robcat

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 47
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • View Profile
Re: Imagination
« Reply #11 on: 07/06/2016 21:22:14 »
My curiousity arose due to the fact that hypnotherapy is far more positive with persons with high imagination as does placebo effects
In fact persons with low imagination are nearly all negative to hypnosis.
Those able to accept deep hypnosis are well able to accept placebo suggestions.

As a reasonable deep hypnosis individual... Proven,  I am curious to follow this path.

Some dismiss hypnotherapy but most accept placebo effect. 

I would appreciate people's views on imagination and hypnosis. And the placebo effect.
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Imagination
« Reply #11 on: 07/06/2016 21:22:14 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums