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Author Topic: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha  (Read 10405 times)

Offline ScouseLad

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ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« on: 25/09/2006 06:13:07 »
Hello [8D]
I was wondering... could aliens actually be amung us???

Look at the facts.
There are so many stars out there. More stars than every grain of sand on the planet, and thats only the stars we can see. And almost half of them have planets. I think. I'm not sure if what im saying is really correct but its right round about ish. haha. Anyway u get what I mean from that, that there is so many other planets out there, and we CAN'T be the only intelligent life.

So why can't the aliens be thousands of years more advanced than us?
Think about it. THOUSANDS OF TIMES MORE ADVANCED. Hmm. In a thousand years from now we'll probabley be at the stars, with how fast technology and all is developing.

My seccond point... (after the point about why there should be more advanced life out there!)...is that black holes can be used for time travel? Or so I think Instein said. Or even traveling large distances across space?

Well why havent advanced aliens already done this, and visited us? If its Scientifficaly possible.

Maybe one reason is because there are SO MANY stars out there, and finding us may take along time, but then they should have developed the technology to find us then. It's puzzling why they arent already here given these facts.

However, I don't beleave in the illumanti or anything, I think that those theorys are bull*AHEM*...[:p]

If you have got any reasons why you know they arent here yet, tell me, in a simple form haha. Anyway Byeeeeeee...





 

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #1 on: 25/09/2006 12:39:35 »
« Last Edit: 25/09/2006 12:40:01 by another_someone »
 

Offline syhprum

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #2 on: 26/09/2006 00:12:43 »
I raised this matter with SETI when there was discussion in THE SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN about the the technology required to communicate up to 1000 lightyears.
my contention was that it was utterly futile to communicate with anyone even as close 100 light years away and removed SETI from my computer but took a rather theological view of the matter.


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Offline syhprum

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #3 on: 26/09/2006 00:32:54 »
****But they took****!

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Offline thebrain13

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #4 on: 26/09/2006 08:08:07 »
Actually, einstein said black holes dont exist. they are merely a mathematical oddity in his gr equations.
 

Offline science_guy

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #5 on: 26/09/2006 15:57:44 »
Well, we actually can be the only intelligent life.  Of all the solar systems we have ever looked at, other than our own, none of them have any terrestial planets at the "life support" distance from the sun.  Also, the basic jupiter sized planet in each of those solar systems are in the inner point of the solar system.  Jupiter has been the basic cause of jupiter to help this planet develop.  Jupiter helped sling many water filled comets to water the planet, and to today, still blocks many from being hurteled at Earth.

Another important event, is that early Earth Had to be hit by a mars sized planet, at just the right angle, in order to inherit an iron core and create the moon, which has caused the tides in is a catalyst for migration.

Now if we assume that we did find another planet that somehow filled those condidions, the likelihood that life is also created is also nil.  For example, in order for a working cell to be alive, you need a pretty big number of genes, that have the exact form in order for the cell not to die quickly.  As an analogy for that, imagine 100,000 people that each have a coin, and they all flip it, and get heads.  Than they flip it again 100,000 more times, and they all get heads.  Thats the likelyhood for other intellegint life.

The theory of wormholes is possible, but not probable.  Black holes do exist, but to create a worm hole, you would also need a white hole.  A white hole is a black hole that has compressed to such a small size, that quantam physics start to work, and matter is slowly ejected out of it until it runs out.  If we did have a white hole, than the likelyhood of finding a white hole lined with a black hole to go to the place we want is almost less likely than other life.  Even if we were able to create a wormhole, they are far too unstable for anything as solid as us to go through.  We would just come out the other end as a long string of matter.

Wow...  I think that was my longest post yet :)

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« Last Edit: 26/09/2006 16:04:05 by science_guy »
 

Offline bostjan

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #6 on: 26/09/2006 19:06:17 »
Well, the reason we have not seen terrestrial planets is because they are too small to see from this far away.  Larger planets with smaller orbits around smaller stars are much easier to detect.  But still, some terrestrial planets have been claimed to be detected nonetheless, although I, myself, am sceptical towards the precision of the means of detection.

As I have stated in other posts, there is no evidence at all that earth and mars collided, it is purely hypothetical.  It is more logical to believe the earth was formed much as it is.  Other planets have iron cores as well, and those cores tend to spin to create magnetic fields (look at mercury).

As far as a wite hole, it ought to be very easy to find if they exist.  Assume there is a body that shoots out everything nearby black holes capture.  It would be emitting an awful lot of high energy matter and tons of light.  Also, as it did so, black holes nearby would need to lose mass.  These are all things we should be able to see easily, yet no one sees it.

And I agree 100% with the statement that one would not survive being crushed down into a singularity and then being re-expanded.  If you crush a can down into a tiny ball, then throw it in a vacuum, it doesn't reform back into a can again.
 

Offline science_guy

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #7 on: 27/09/2006 15:50:01 »
We can see the smaller terrestial planets because of an effect that is called gravitational lensing.  Using two correctly placed stars/bodies of dark matter, the gravity will bend the light from a telescope to dramatically increase the range of vision.

Even so, The collision still created the moon.  I never stated that mars hit earth, im saying a mars-sized planetesimal collided with young earth, causing the formation of the moon.

The problem with that is that white holes do not yet exist, they are purely theory.  Even assuming that the black hole is 1 solar mass (mass of our sun) it would take more than 20 billion years for quantam physics to begin to kick in.  The problem with this is that the universe is 15 billion years old, and there have been no black holes discovered with only 1 solar mass.  The black hole would of had to be formed 15 billion years before the big bang if we would even hope to have one now.

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Offline bostjan

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #8 on: 28/09/2006 08:02:52 »
Well, the collision theory is not the best held theory.  No one knows exactly how the moon was formed, but it's surface is very unlike the earth's crust for sure.  If you want to put all of your eggs in one basket and say for sure that one of about a hundred theories is true, with no real evidence, that's fine, because honestly, it's no less feasible than most of the others.

Gravitational lensing happens to a detectable extrant when gravitational fields are high, and thus less likely to be observed with smaller masses.  It is really not as well understood as other methods of detection, which also are easier to use on larger planets.  Any method of detection which relies on the mass of the planet is bound to show us larger mass planets, certainly.

If you play with schwartzchild equations, white holes actually come up that would have had to have been created during the big bang, as a lowest-order way to set up a singularity.  This is the reason why I don't believe they exist.  If a massless object was created during the big bang it must either be stationary, in which case, there would only be one at the centre of the universe, and it would be quite easy to see from just about anywhere, or else, it would move at the speed of light, and therefore, be useless.  As for creation of a quantum singularity, it would not only require billions of years, but also a negative change in global entropy, thus in violation of the second law of thermodynamics.

I think the problem lies in the term 'black hole.'  Upon hearing the word 'hole,' people seem to think it must lead someplace, but the only place it leads you to, is a certain death.  It's like taking a piece of twine and adding to a ball of twine expecting the twine to use the ball as some sort of 'beam-me-up-scotty' teleporter.  They should have called them 'hypermasses' or something to that effect to get the point across more clearly.
 

Offline science_guy

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #9 on: 28/09/2006 15:48:34 »
There couldnt be a white hole in the center of the universe, because frankly, it no longer exists in space/time.  We live on a 2 dimensiol plane located on a 3-dimensional earth, but we can still drill into the 3 dimensional planet, though not even close to the core.  The same can be applied to the universe.  As the universe spreads, space/time spreads with it, becoming like a hollow sphere.  We live on a 3-dimensional plane on a 4-dimensional universe.  Even if this were not true, the center of the universe would either be too desolate to hold any solar systems that could be explored, or would be too filled with stars to be remotely safe to travel in.

The term black hole can be named as a problem, but the theory of wormholes makes it that black holes, in the way the bend space/time with their supergravity, would immediately teleport the matter to an alligned white hole, and therefore eject it, though this process is very unstable.

Although I think we both wholly agree that we wont be seeing aliens for at least another millenia or that we wont be able to test wormholes in our lifetime.  Nice conversation topic, though :)

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Offline Radrook

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #10 on: 07/10/2006 19:49:12 »
From a believer in God standpoint life is designed to cope with its particular environment and life found on any planet will be viewed in that context. Of course Earthlike planets will still be expected to have Earth-like life and those which are not will still be expected to be inhabited by creatures which are different regardless.


From a godless evolutionary view, type of stars and location of planets is more important than their numbers. Extreme elliptical orbits, for example might make a planet an oven and then a frigid waste. Other planets are too close to their stars are permanently scorched. In fact, distance is not even necessary to create hostile temperatures. All that's necessary are the right atmospheric conditions as Venus with its lead-melting temperatures proves. Then there are ceipheid variable stars which balloon to many times their size on a weekly daily and even hourly or less schedule.  Such stars shower their planets with deadly radiation
sterilizing the soil and killing any type of life that one might place there. Other stars are close proximity binaries which interfere with one another's planets making their orbits unstable. These are stars atoo close to the galactic hubs where radiation is life-prohibitive and where stars might be  torn apart and sling-shotted our of the galaxy to become rogue stars, or swallowed whole. Stellar collisions in such packed areas are also a possibility as they are within the near centers of globular clusters. Many planets are gas giants like Jupiter with its 1000 mph nightmare winds and its death-dealing radiation which makes surface life as we know it on its moons unlikely-although life in its atmosphere has been suggested as possible. Then we also have neutron stars, white dwarfs, brown dwarfs, rogue planets travelling the darkness of interstellar or intergalactic space, all of which are viewed as non-life
supporting or at least very unlikely to harbor life as we know it
on- much less intelligent life as we know it.



In short, numbers and life as we know it possibility whittled down considerably based on these crucial factors.

Are aliens among us? From a Christian biblical point if view yes since angels and are extraterrestrial other dimensionals. In fact, a takeover of the planet is described in Genesis where interbreeding is mentioned. Neither does belief in God rule out his populating other planets with material intelligent creatures either identical or similar to mankind who might or might have not sinned as mankind has.

From an atheist viewpoint perhaps yes and perhaps no. Technological sophistication offers no guarantee of emotional maturity and the possibility of an emotionally immature species blowing itself to smithereens is said to be quite high-our own tendencies are given as an example. So from that standpoint many civilization might have come and gone before having a chance to get off their planet. Others might have initiated space exploration and then destroyed themselves shortly after.
Other civilizations might have succumbed when their star when nova or supernova. Others might have found interstellar travel an insurmountable obstacle and are still wallowing about in their own solar system wondering if someone else is out there.

Or perhaps they took a look at us and don't particularly like what they see and decided to keep the distance. Speculation is very diversified in this area.







« Last Edit: 07/10/2006 20:20:05 by Radrook »
 

Offline science_guy

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #11 on: 09/10/2006 16:15:02 »
I see your standpoint, And I get what you are saying, but it is not completely right.  God and Science go hand in hand, because God created science (scientific method is described in the bible), and God cannot lie, What we find In science cannot, in fact, be a lie.  If you do have any questions about this subject, or any other pertaining to God and/or the universe, try going to http://www.reasons.org.  The site is run by Hugh Ross, Ph.D.  All of the arguments I used on this topic I learned personaly from him.

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #12 on: 09/10/2006 23:05:54 »
I usally stay well clear of alien's , nasty little green things.:)

Science guy.... bostjans correct. we cant view earth sized planets in other solar systems even through Gravitational lensing. At present they are to small for us to image.
 
quote:

Originally posted by bostjan.

Well, the collision theory is not the best held theory


There are many theories but the collision theory is at at present i do believe the the most widely held. Also the main reason why the surface of the moon and earth are so different is because the earth is geologically active and covered with life  whilst the moon is dead and is unable to cover up all the fallout from all the many thousands of metorite impacts.

Michael
« Last Edit: 09/10/2006 23:18:18 by ukmicky »
 

Offline Radrook

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #13 on: 10/10/2006 03:06:44 »
quote:
Originally posted by science_guy

I see your standpoint, And I get what you are saying, but it is not completely right.  God and Science go hand in hand, because God created science (scientific method is described in the bible), and God cannot lie, What we find In science cannot, in fact, be a lie.  If you do have any questions about this subject, or any other pertaining to God and/or the universe, try going to http://www.reasons.org [nofollow].  The site is run by Hugh Ross, Ph.D.  All of the arguments I used on this topic I learned personaly from him.

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I would engage you in a battle of wits, but it is against my moral code to attack the unarmed.






No need. I agree with you 100%. I just wanted to provide both viewpoints because maybe the rules here prohibit a purely religious answer to such issues. But if indeed it doesn't then all the better.

About science, yes, very true. If indeed the scientific method reveals truth then it is in harmony with what God has done. But if by any chance the scientific method is used and wrong conclusions reached, then we have a different scenario. How often have scientists used the scientific method and made claims based on it only to have them admit later that they were wrong?

Excerpt:

Scientific Method in the Real World
Keep in mind that science is performed by humans, with the same foibles as other people. Scientists sometimes make mistakes; it's easy to fool yourself into believing something which is untrue, and certainly just plain screwups are as much a part of science as anything else. Scientists also sometimes lie, just like other folks. Scientific fraud is relatively rare, though, because if you are found to have committed fraud as a scientist, your career is really weakened, if not completely toast.

http://pasadena.wr.usgs.gov/office/ganderson/es10/lectures/lecture01/lecture01.html [nofollow]



BTW
Thanks for the links.  : )
« Last Edit: 10/10/2006 03:19:28 by Radrook »
 

Offline science_guy

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #14 on: 10/10/2006 16:24:15 »
your welcome :)

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Offline Hadrian

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #15 on: 10/10/2006 17:10:07 »


 

Offline science_guy

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #16 on: 12/10/2006 06:40:50 »
LOL!

Now tell me, Where do you get these ideas, and where do you find the time to make them?

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Offline Hadrian

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #17 on: 12/10/2006 18:48:53 »
Quote
Originally posted by science_guy

LOL!

Now tell me, Where do you get these ideas, and where do you find the time to make them?

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I teach creative thinking skills among other things. These take about 50 to 10 minutes to make

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
 

Offline Zeig

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #18 on: 13/10/2006 03:31:12 »
There is acualy an equation for the chance of life other than out own in the universe. I'm having truble finding it but it's quite interesting. It's based on our world and all the planets,galexies,ect. there are that we currentl know of with out life. so the odds are like 1:100000000000000000 lol idk if thats really the odds but its an algebraic equation that can't be solved yet.
 

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #19 on: 13/10/2006 14:18:01 »
quote:
Originally posted by Zeig

There is acualy an equation for the chance of life other than out own in the universe. I'm having truble finding it but it's quite interesting. It's based on our world and all the planets,galexies,ect. there are that we currentl know of with out life. so the odds are like 1:100000000000000000 lol idk if thats really the odds but its an algebraic equation that can't be solved yet.



I'd have thought we'd have to start by agreeing what life is.



George
 

Offline Hadrian

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #20 on: 16/10/2006 10:49:58 »
[quote
 
I teach creative thinking skills among other things. These take about 50 to 10 minutes to make

[/quote]

sorry i ment 5 to 10 minutes NOT 50

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
 

Offline dgdavisjr

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #21 on: 22/10/2006 03:24:06 »
quote:
Originally posted by thebrain13

Actually, einstein said black holes dont exist. they are merely a mathematical oddity in his gr equations.


So are wormholes

D.G.Davis,Jr.
 

Offline dgdavisjr

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #22 on: 22/10/2006 03:46:57 »
quote:
Originally posted by Zeig

There is acualy an equation for the chance of life other than out own in the universe. I'm having truble finding it but it's quite interesting. It's based on our world and all the planets,galexies,ect. there are that we currentl know of with out life. so the odds are like 1:100000000000000000 lol idk if thats really the odds but its an algebraic equation that can't be solved yet.


For a real look at the Drake equation go to newbielink:http://www.ditl.org/ [nonactive]
and click on calculators. but in essence, if you populate the average stellar formation per year as 25 stars per galaxy, and that 25% of those will have planets with an average of 5 planets each, and postulate further that at least 1% of those planets are capable of supporting some life, with 1% of those planets actually developing life and 1% of those life bearing planets developing intelligent life which forms societies having a lifespan of at least 50,000 years, then the approximate number of intelligent species in our galaxy at the present time is (deep breath and a looong drum roll!) 2. [xx(]

D.G.Davis,Jr.
 

Offline lightarrow

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #23 on: 22/10/2006 10:50:36 »
quote:
Originally posted by dgdavisjr

but in essence, if you populate the average stellar formation per year as 25 stars per galaxy, and that 25% of those will have planets with an average of 5 planets each, and postulate further that at least 1% of those planets are capable of supporting some life, with 1% of those planets actually developing life and 1% of those life bearing planets developing intelligent life which forms societies having a lifespan of at least 50,000 years, then the approximate number of intelligent species in our galaxy at the present time is (deep breath and a looong drum roll!) 2. [xx(]

D.G.Davis,Jr.

And I suppose you are one of the two!;)
 

Offline science_guy

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
« Reply #24 on: 23/10/2006 15:39:33 »
Im the other one :D

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Re: ALIENS.. really interesting science haha
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