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Author Topic: For or against the death penalty?  (Read 22098 times)

Offline Andy28

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For or against the death penalty?
« on: 25/09/2006 20:33:18 »
Yes or no? Simple as that.


 

Offline Mirage

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #1 on: 25/09/2006 20:35:20 »
For some people it's not a black or white question/situation

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Offline Gaia

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #2 on: 25/09/2006 20:35:29 »
I think for or against would be clearer. Definitely AGAINST!!!

Gaia  xxx
 

Offline moonfire

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #3 on: 26/09/2006 00:14:49 »
Against!

"Lo" Loretta
 

Offline Karen W.

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #4 on: 26/09/2006 03:08:34 »
Against!!

Karen
 

another_someone

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #5 on: 26/09/2006 04:10:03 »
In general, against.  I do not think it serves any judicial purpose.

I think the more complex issue is where someone serving a life sentence actually asks to be allowed to die (such as Ian Brady did, and such an Ian Huntly and Harold Shipman did by their actions if not by their request).

But then, this side issue may itself imping upon the wider debate about euthanasia.



George
« Last Edit: 26/09/2006 04:13:55 by another_someone »
 

Offline lightarrow

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #6 on: 26/09/2006 14:02:13 »
Against.
 

Offline Andy28

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #7 on: 26/09/2006 16:52:18 »
Theres lots of kind hearted people on this forum, lol. I've never seen so many people at peace with the world. I suppose i get annoyed because where i live you can murder someone and make parole in as little as 12 years. How is that paying your debt?
 

Offline moonfire

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #8 on: 26/09/2006 17:06:22 »
Too bad peace with the world does not mean world peace...we are still a minority!

"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
 

Offline Carolyn

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #9 on: 26/09/2006 17:42:55 »
I wish I could give a straight forward answer, but I'm still kind of straddling the fence on this one.

Carolyn
 

Offline Mirage

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #10 on: 26/09/2006 17:57:59 »
I was once given a wedgie on a gate, that wasn't very nice, they ripped my trousers [:(!][V]

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another_someone

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #11 on: 26/09/2006 18:13:52 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28

Theres lots of kind hearted people on this forum, lol. I've never seen so many people at peace with the world. I suppose i get annoyed because where i live you can murder someone and make parole in as little as 12 years. How is that paying your debt?



What debt - you cannot repay a debt with an eye for an eye.

As far as I am concerned, the guy may as well come out as soon as people can be reasonably sure he wont do it again (in some cases, the guy would never do it again anyway - after all, if a wife happens to lose it against a habitually abusive husband, does she really even deserve 12 years inside?).

There are other people who will be spending the rest of their lives in jail (in the case of Ian Huntly, it was a fairly short rest of his life) - but then, even that often seems more like a political gesture than a carefully judged assessment of public risk.

I see absolutely no value of vengeance for the sake of vengeance.  I do not see that as being kind, just pragmatic.



George
 

Offline Andy28

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #12 on: 26/09/2006 20:14:01 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

quote:
Originally posted by Andy28

Theres lots of kind hearted people on this forum, lol. I've never seen so many people at peace with the world. I suppose i get annoyed because where i live you can murder someone and make parole in as little as 12 years. How is that paying your debt?



What debt - you cannot repay a debt with an eye for an eye.

As far as I am concerned, the guy may as well come out as soon as people can be reasonably sure he wont do it again (in some cases, the guy would never do it again anyway - after all, if a wife happens to lose it against a habitually abusive husband, does she really even deserve 12 years inside?).

There are other people who will be spending the rest of their lives in jail (in the case of Ian Huntly, it was a fairly short rest of his life) - but then, even that often seems more like a political gesture than a carefully judged assessment of public risk.

I see absolutely no value of vengeance for the sake of vengeance.  I do not see that as being kind, just pragmatic.

I just don't know how to respond. I just cannot believe that you guys see murderers as people who deserve compassion and a second chance. We are on different planets.



George


 

Offline Andy28

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #13 on: 26/09/2006 20:14:46 »
I just don't know how to respond. I just cannot believe that you guys see murderers as people who deserve compassion and a second chance. We are on different planets.
 

another_someone

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #14 on: 26/09/2006 20:49:12 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28

I just don't know how to respond. I just cannot believe that you guys see murderers as people who deserve compassion and a second chance. We are on different planets.



As I said, to me it is not a matter of compasion for the individual, it is about trying to build the society I would like to live in.

Oh, yes, I do have compassion for those who have been wrongly convicted (and no-matter what your belief in DNA analysis, we still get plenty of false convictions); and I also have compassion for the family of the person convicted of murder (they too are just as much victims as the person who has been killed).  More than that, I want to see more positive steps broghte about to reduce violence in society, and matching violence with violence does not to my mind serve that end.



George
 

Offline Andy28

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #15 on: 26/09/2006 22:47:27 »
I understand what you are saying. I think that brings this debate to a close unless a different member decides to contribute.
 

Offline Karen W.

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #16 on: 27/09/2006 05:32:46 »
I agree with George, and I didn't realize this was a debate , but merely a question being answered honestly!! I do note that you wanted yes or no... but a question can be answered that way but indeed at times it is neccessary to allow further dialog to occur with answer!

Karen
 

Offline moonfire

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #17 on: 27/09/2006 06:20:13 »
Excellent Karen!  I can concur with your statement given. What does it solve if we kill a person?  What satisfaction does it give to the victum or victum's families?  Does it really repay for what was taken?  There should be other alternatives given...if the person is locked up for life...and supposed rehabilitation is given(not usually)then the person should work and pay compensation to that family while they are alive under supervision since we are paying for them being locked up the money they would normally earn on the outside should be sent to the family in a fund for them to decide what to do with it.  For those on shorter term sentences, they should be monitored more closely by parole and not have freedoms like they have now, but placed in classes for rehabilitation for life.  Okay, not all the solutions but some short term ones I am thinking of as there is no value on life, but they should have to pay other than receiving an education in jail and no real rehabilitation for their behaviour...etc...

"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
 

Offline Karen W.

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #18 on: 27/09/2006 07:50:22 »
Andy, It really bothers me that You say Yes or No, its that simple! It is not simple .. the fact is it is one of the hardest questions I have ever faced in my life! Fact I am 46 years old It took me over half of my life to have the life experience that I have had dealing with specific topic subject for me to finally be able to say "Against!" and stand confident that it is really the best thing for me. I find you a unique "Young Man" and this is not at all a put down, so please don't take offence as there is none intended! When I hear the words you use and the matter of fact tone you seem to me to be very young.. Do you mind me asking how old you are?? Just curios.. as many of the things you say tell me you are a very young man.

Do you have any experience ever being the family or close friend of a murder victim? I hope you never do as It tears you up inside and makes you question your own existance. There is no way I can explain to you where you will understand that is something you will learn through life experience.. I hope that you get through it as well as I.. I almost didn't! Other members of my family have ruined their lives dealing with this pain.. they have turned to drugs to forget others just become bitter and angry..hostile and very short tempered... You should live awhile and have some more life experiences before you try to decide one way or the other..its really much more the yes or no, its not that simple...

Karen
 

Offline Andy28

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #19 on: 27/09/2006 11:41:15 »
Well i hope i don't offend you by telling you i have served 4 prison sentences and have made the national papers in 1998. I have been hooked on heroin and am an alcoholic.  All this at 28.  That does'nt mean that i can't now behave like a normal citizen and have an opinion that criminals should be adequately punished.  Forums need outspoken people otherwise they become stale.
 

another_someone

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #20 on: 27/09/2006 12:04:55 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28

Well i hope i don't offend you by telling you i have served 4 prison sentences and have made the national papers in 1998. I have been hooked on heroin and am an alcoholic.  All this at 28.  That does'nt mean that i can't now behave like a normal citizen and have an opinion that criminals should be adequately punished.  Forums need outspoken people otherwise they become stale.



Why should we be offended?  As you say, you are still a human being.

That you use the term 'alcoholic' in the present tense is of concern, but it is concern over your well-being, not anything else.

But, I would still ask, of the prison sentences you served, would they not have been better served if they had focused more of rehabilitation than on punishment, on giving you the strength to live without props like alcohol?

I would also ask, when you were on heroin, could you imagine yourself having committed murder while in that state (many heroin addicts do)?  While you were an addict, would any deterrent have been strong enough to match the need to find the next fix?

Sorry if I am asking my questions with assumption that may be more from ignorance than personal experience, and feel free to tell me where you feel my understanding of addiction and its effects (at least insofar they applied to your experience) may be flawed.



George
 

Offline Andy28

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #21 on: 27/09/2006 12:42:04 »
I know what you mean. When you are 'clucking' it makes you irrational and you do things you would'nt normally. I would never kill anybody because i have'nt got it in my nature but i still agree with capital punishment. The reason for that is because it is killing to prevent killing so it is justified in my view.
 

another_someone

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #22 on: 27/09/2006 13:05:24 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28

I know what you mean. When you are 'clucking' it makes you irrational and you do things you would'nt normally. I would never kill anybody because i have'nt got it in my nature but i still agree with capital punishment. The reason for that is because it is killing to prevent killing so it is justified in my view.



But then, if these people can be brought off heroin, and become perfectly good citizens, then have you not wasted a life unnecessarily?

In any case, capital punishment is not about preventing killing, it is after the event.  Now if we had capital punishment for all people with the potential to kill, before they actually do kill, then that would be another matter (was there not a film recently along that theme?).

Ofcourse, if you kill everyone who has the capacity to take human life, who would you have left to be your executioners (or your soldiers)?



George
 

Offline Carolyn

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #23 on: 27/09/2006 13:54:35 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28

Well i hope i don't offend you by telling you i have served 4 prison sentences and have made the national papers in 1998. I have been hooked on heroin and am an alcoholic.  All this at 28.  That does'nt mean that i can't now behave like a normal citizen and have an opinion that criminals should be adequately punished.  Forums need outspoken people otherwise they become stale.



Hi Andy - I certainly am not offended by you having served 4 prison terms.  You are very young to have gone through all that.  What's important is that you've learned from your past, both the failures and successes.  

We all have things from our past that we're not so proud of.  For instance, I bet most people would be surprised to know that I too have been charged with a felony.  I did not serve prison time fortunately, but I was arrested, and fingerprinted and all of that humiliating stuff that goes with it.  I'm currently under a deferred prosecution agreement for the next few years, so if I screw up, I could very well go to prison.  I didn't make the national news, but it might as well have been (I live in a tiny little town).  I was the lead story in the local news, papers and radio.   It was by far, one of the most trying times of my life.  The humiliation was almost unbearable for me.  I lost my business, and my family was subjected to the humiliation as well.  That's probably what was the hardest for me, knowing what my loved ones were having to deal with because of me.  I found out very quickly who my friends were.

Please don't take this as a criticism, it is certainly not meant that way.  I'm just very curious about this.  For me, going through all of this has given me more compassion.  I used to be very unsympathetic when it came to law breakers and was very much for the death penalty.  Now I guess I can see both sides.  What purpose would it serve for me to have spent time in prison?  I'm still "paying back my debt to society", so to speak.  It would've cost the tax payers a lot more money to send me to prison, my children would suffer and my husband quite possibly would've ended up on welfare.

I know my crime doesn't compare to murder, but I still have a very hard time, for lack of a better term, sitting in judgement of people.

Carolyn
 

Offline moonfire

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #24 on: 27/09/2006 14:48:03 »
Very well spoken Carolyn.  It is amazing how many "good" people had a bad rap just because a mistake...don't we all make mistakes?  I was on jury duty one time for someone who was allegedly accused of a major crime...I was the minority as I would not follow the pack of wolves sitting in the stand...the Top Juror Jerk...sorry, I know that is not what they are called...wanted us all to vote guilty because of "circumstantial evidence" I asked to review a tape again...still it did not look like him, face shape totally different and I pointed it out...but no one cared..."someone needed to pay for the haneous crime, being that he fit the profile he was the perfect candidate"  I was also told by the foreman that he was bound to do something anyways and we were protecting society...uh, how do you know that was my argument?  He said, because he fits the background of most killers...Amazing huh?  I argued with this Jerk for 3 hours and everyone was mad at me!  They did not care.  I asked him if he was psychic, or any certification he may have to know...then told me he owned his own business...I told him, oh, yeah, you are a thief as you rip everyone off and maybe involved with the mafia...oh, boy it set him on fire...I told him I had the same certifications as he did...NONE to assume this because of his background...hung jury...man was let go free and clear of charges...when the Jerk was asked by someone from the media(after being told we were not allowed to talk to them...soundslike a lawbreaker to me...he told them there was not enough conclusive evidence and most of us said he was not guilty...when the votes were counted...only 1 was not guilty..hmmm, was it him or me?  It was me (most of the jurors slept through our argument and did not hear a worddddd!)

"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
 

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Re: For or against the death penalty?
« Reply #24 on: 27/09/2006 14:48:03 »

 

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