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Author Topic: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?  (Read 69429 times)

Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #175 on: 20/03/2015 23:55:33 »
connect a charged little ball and wall with a spring, knock the ball so it vibrates. we can measure the em wave strength and frequency.

in atom world, electron and nucleus bound by em force, proton attracts electron, fluid ball repel electron, balanced at radius. when force applied, em wave produced.

no need any medium, no particle/photon emitted.

thoughts?

   
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #176 on: 21/03/2015 06:46:30 »
if matter's compressibility is 1/10^10, atom's compressibility is less than 1/10^10.

which means electron cannot be pushed into atom radius. so it is impossible for an electron to move toward nucleus, electron can only move on the surface of the atom ball, or away from atom radius.

seems to me all fit observation.

thoughts?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #177 on: 24/03/2015 23:12:46 »
ahem? on what?
Jccc, I'm sure you have your own unique way of looking at the universe. And you don't want people to destroy it, because you feel it has a elegance and a importance, even when found partially wrong. But you really need to preresent what it builds on, to make people give you the criticism you need to refine it.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #178 on: 14/04/2015 05:27:58 »
when a charge is vibrating, its em force follows. the charge emits em wave.

when a mass is vibrating, its gravitational force is vibrating, the mass emits gravitational wave.

when an atom vibrates at 10^14 or so per second, it emits visible light.

seems all correct?

how do you think? anything wrong with logic?
 

Online Ethos_

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #179 on: 14/04/2015 13:36:40 »
when a charge is vibrating, its em force follows. the charge emits em wave.

when a mass is vibrating, its gravitational force is vibrating, the mass emits gravitational wave.

when an atom vibrates at 10^14 or so per second, it emits visible light.

seems all correct?

how do you think? anything wrong with logic?
Depends upon how the "logic" was constructed. Logic built only from intuition invites error. Only when logic is built upon observable evidence can it be considered "Logical".
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #180 on: 14/04/2015 16:00:48 »
when a charge is vibrating, its em force follows. the charge emits em wave.

when a mass is vibrating, its gravitational force is vibrating, the mass emits gravitational wave.

when an atom vibrates at 10^14 or so per second, it emits visible light.

seems all correct?

how do you think? anything wrong with logic?
Depends upon how the "logic" was constructed. Logic built only from intuition invites error. Only when logic is built upon observable evidence can it be considered "Logical".

such as photon emitting? orbital changing? energy exchanging?
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #181 on: 16/04/2015 14:38:42 »
charges, proton and electron, are the simplest machine. with no moving parts, able to work/interact at distance/without to touch. 

from charges, atoms able to from, from atoms, matters able to form. charges made chemical bounding, magnetic, gravity, light able to exist.

but how much we know about charges? is electron really fly around proton to form hydrogen atom?

if gravity becomes 1000 time stronger, can the moon still circling us? can the moon change orbit and release photons?

please help me to understand, please don't show me links, show me the logic/principle. 1 proton and 1 electron, how is hydrogen atom formed???

 

Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #182 on: 03/06/2015 22:03:40 »
if energy is conserve, matter is conserve, charge is conserve.

how could electron emits photons? how many rounds of photon can an electron carry?

This is a good question. I don't know exactly how this works, and I am not entirely satisfied with any of the answers I have heard on this one yet...



how's going?
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #183 on: 03/06/2015 22:11:59 »
The larger issue is if an electron captures a photon then what velocity does the photon have? It is either orbiting the electron or it slows down. Another biggy is if the photon has no charge then how could an electron capture it in the first place? Isn't it then as likely to be captured by a proton or neutron?
 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #184 on: 04/06/2015 01:18:09 »
I don't think it's that the electron captures the photon. The whole atom captures the photon, and the whole atom is in a higher energy state. It's just easier to talk about electrons changing energy levels, even though the electron's energy level is meaningless without a nucleus for it to interact with.

A good thing to remember though, is that this is only a model of how atoms can absorb and emit photons. It is great for predicting the energies involved, but it doesn't necessarily explain what is actually going on. Quantum electrodynamics is another model (group of models) that deals with that--but unfortunately, I don't know much about QED, and won't try to explain it.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #185 on: 04/06/2015 04:01:51 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
The larger issue is if an electron captures a photon then what velocity does the photon have?
An electron cannot capture a photon. That'd make no sense in terms of quantum mechanics. It's the system of the nucleus and electron, i.e. the atom that captures it. The energy goes from the kinetic energy of the photon to the potential energy of the electron/nucleus system. In any case whenever a photon exists its moving with the speed c.

Quote from: jeffreyH
It is either orbiting the electron or it slows down.
Not at all. There's no reason to think such a thing. You're trying to think of these things in classical terms when you have to think it quantum mechanical terms.

Quote from: jeffreyH
Another biggy is if the photon has no charge then how could an electron capture it in the first place?
The electron doesn't capture the photon. The atom does.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #186 on: 04/06/2015 04:32:11 »
isn't in solar cell electrons capture photons to produce current?

so photon hits electron to produce current? point impact? isn't the theory won a nobel?

what if photon hits proton? will proton jumps out?     

what is electron/nucleus system? you invented? what's the structure? the mechanism?



 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #187 on: 04/06/2015 14:33:29 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
The larger issue is if an electron captures a photon then what velocity does the photon have?
An electron cannot capture a photon. That'd make no sense in terms of quantum mechanics. It's the system of the nucleus and electron, i.e. the atom that captures it. The energy goes from the kinetic energy of the photon to the potential energy of the electron/nucleus system. In any case whenever a photon exists its moving with the speed c.

Quote from: jeffreyH
It is either orbiting the electron or it slows down.
Not at all. There's no reason to think such a thing. You're trying to think of these things in classical terms when you have to think it quantum mechanical terms.

Quote from: jeffreyH
Another biggy is if the photon has no charge then how could an electron capture it in the first place?
The electron doesn't capture the photon. The atom does.

I know zip about quantum mechanics so I'll shut up now. lol
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #188 on: 04/06/2015 15:26:39 »
if there is a fruit fight, i'm in.

I have taken on board what two fellow members have said. They are very knowledgeable. There is no fight. I can even understand why they said what they said. It is called learning. You might like to try it some time.
 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #189 on: 04/06/2015 15:59:30 »
isn't in solar cell electrons capture photons to produce current?

so photon hits electron to produce current? point impact? isn't the theory won a nobel?

what if photon hits proton? will proton jumps out?     

what is electron/nucleus system? you invented? what's the structure? the mechanism?

Solar cells can operate by many different mechanisms, base on what they are made of and how they are constructed. The easiest way to think about it is:

A photon is absorbed by the solar panel. The energy of that photon increases the potential energy of an electron (1-2; promotes the electron to a higher energy level/band). This energy level is high enough that the electron can relax into the wire (3), go around the circuit, and end up back where it started (4). This is an overly simplistic model, but I think it gets the point across.
     1                                   2                                3                                     4
______                        ___e___                     ________                        ________
                 
              --------                          -------                          ---e---->                             -----------

__e__                         _______                      ________                       ___e____
« Last Edit: 04/06/2015 16:03:43 by chiralSPO »
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #190 on: 05/06/2015 06:29:40 »
how solar panel absorb photon? impact? em wave?

what energy photon carries? zero mass no momentum?

how electron increase energy? move faster? orbit higher?

what is energy level/band?

how electron relax?

Thanks and good morning!
 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #191 on: 06/06/2015 18:04:55 »
how solar panel absorb photon? impact? em wave?
Easiest to think of it as an electromagnetic interaction. The electric field of the photon can push the electron into a higher energy level if it (the photon) has the right amount of energy.

what energy photon carries? zero mass no momentum?
a photon carries energy that is propotional to its frequency E = hv a photon has no rest mass, but it has momentum that is also proportional to its frequency p = hv/c

how electron increase energy? move faster? orbit higher?

Both(ish). There can be an increase in potential energy (analogous to orbiting higher) and/or an increase in momentum (like moving faster)

what is energy level/band?

In crystalline bulk materials like semiconductors and conductors (many of) the atomic energy levels of all the component atoms merge into energy bands that span the entire crystal (near complete delocalization of the electrons). The energy bands are defined by the potential energy of the electrons that occupy them.

how electron relax?

This means they fall down from a high energy level into a lower one.

Thanks and good morning!
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #192 on: 06/06/2015 18:42:00 »
Thanks for the answers. more questions if you don't mind.

photon has no charge, how could it produce em field?

if photon is a particle traveling at c in a straight line, how can it has frequency? is the photon vibrating in space?

is electron orbiting all the time? is a hydrogen atom has 2 d or 3 d orbital?
 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #193 on: 06/06/2015 19:52:02 »
a photon is neutral but it has an electric field that oscilates between negative and positive at a specific frequency (the average is zero) and this is the frequency that determines the energy of the photon.

for the last time: atoms are definitely 3D, not 2D! the probability densities of orbitals are 3D, though one could argue that the orbital itself (the wave function) is higher dimensional, because it is based on complex numbers.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #194 on: 06/06/2015 20:10:26 »
a photon is neutral but it has an electric field that oscilates between negative and positive at a specific frequency (the average is zero) and this is the frequency that determines the energy of the photon.

for the last time: atoms are definitely 3D, not 2D! the probability densities of orbitals are 3D, though one could argue that the orbital itself (the wave function) is higher dimensional, because it is based on complex numbers.

neutral photon has an electric field?

what propability density? the only propability is proton attracting electron according to Coulomb's law.

what wave function? what is making waves? how?

we are discussing science right? not imagination, not assumption.

Thanks
 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #195 on: 06/06/2015 23:04:44 »
this is science. an electron behaves like a wave. probability density is the probability of finding an electron (in this instance) in a particular region of space.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #196 on: 06/06/2015 23:47:45 »
photon has electric field? pretty strange science?

what's the propability for electron to stick with proton? 0?

what wave? electron moves along force, how it waves?

Thanks
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #197 on: 07/06/2015 01:03:37 »
Quote from: chiralSPO
The electric field of the photon can push the electron into a higher energy level if it (the photon) has the right amount of energy.
According to quantum electrodynamics photons don't have an electric or magnetic field.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #198 on: 07/06/2015 04:58:15 »
you guys are killing me.... [?] [B)] [:0] [xx(]
 

Offline lightarrow

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #199 on: 07/06/2015 12:31:16 »
if energy is conserve, matter is conserve, charge is conserve.
Something is missing: a final "d".  :)
Quote
how could electron emits photons? how many rounds of photon can an electron carry?
Photons are created from the oscillation/acceleration of a charge or in an atom's transition from an energy state to another (or energy transitions of other electromagnetic systems). Energy is conserved because the electron/atom/system potential energy is transformed in energy of photons.
The number of photons is not a conserved quantity.
It's not magic, it's simple physics, you only have to study it.

--
lightarrow
« Last Edit: 07/06/2015 12:42:06 by lightarrow »
 

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Re: Would the photon lose all its energy at infinity?
« Reply #199 on: 07/06/2015 12:31:16 »

 

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