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Author Topic: Does a photon travel the distance?  (Read 7491 times)

Offline fortean

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Does a photon travel the distance?
« on: 29/09/2006 14:54:36 »
As I understand it, photons travel from the point at which they are created to the point at which their energy is lost, at the speed of light. I propose that photons travel very little distance.

What if the universe is flooded with static photons; perhaps another name would be required. When energy is applied to a photon it passes that energy on to an adjacent photon in a similar way to electrical energy flow. This continues until the energy can no longer be passed on. What we observe is the transfer of this energy from one photon to another; light. The transfer occurs very fast, the speed of light, and manifests itself in the static photon field as a wave. This is similar to a sound wave or a ripple in a pond where the molecules that arrive at the edge, or your ear drum, have only travelled a very short distance.

I think this requires that photons (the static ones) have mass. This mass is just too small for us to measure at the moment. The static photon mass does effect other objects with mass though; gravity. Objects with enough mass have a noticeable effect on the static photon field. Bearing this in mind I wonder if a black hole really is black. Perhaps it is so bright that it is pushing the static photon field away in much the same way as a very large rock dropped into a pond will allow you to see the bottom of the pond for a moment. It's like a continuous big splash in the photon field. Because there are no photons close enough to the energy there is no light, or the light that does get passed through is not in the visible spectrum. Does a pulsar emit a pulse because its energy release is not constant and so mimics the dropping of one stone after another in to the pond with the resulting plume of water as the space is filled again.

If there are a finite number of static photons in the universe, and the universe is expanding then this should be observed as a slowing down in the speed of light. The photons have to be spread out within the universe and so have to move further apart. It would take longer for the charge to be passed from one photon to the next. It may be that the static photon field defines the universe and its limits.

This may also explain the speed of light limit. If the static photons have mass and probably fill almost all space then that mass has to be moved out of the way to allow the passage of another object. Only as the object travels faster does the mass that need to be shifted become significant and measurable. That at least makes more sense to me rather than just saying you can't go faster than the speed of light even though there is nothing in your way.

Perhaps there are no particles that travel the distance and even neutrinos are just an observed effect of one relatively motionless particle interacting with another.

How can this be proved? One idea is to create a very small black hole. Release enough energy in a small enough space and see if it creates the big splash. If a minute area of black is observed then it would show that the photons were being pushed away. It may be that you would get light at first getting brighter and brighter until once enough energy was released then it would start getting darker.


 

Offline bostjan

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Re: Does a photon travel the distance?
« Reply #1 on: 29/09/2006 20:51:47 »
How 'bout this?

A photon has no mass, but the universe is filled with 'potential photons.'  Like a sparse sea of virtual pairs of low energy photons, which are constantly being created and destroyed, making a sort of hazy background of light which you cannot see at any macroscopic level.  What would happen if a real photon then came upon a virtual one?

The question I raise to your theory is this:  If space is filled with particles that have mass, then wouldn't empty space then have mass?  Wouldn't any moving particle then push these photons out of the way?  Then anything moving would appear to give off light.  Also, if photons have mass, wouldn't high energy photons have to go faster than low energy photons, assuming all were once indistinguishable rest-state photons?
 

Offline fortean

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Re: Does a photon travel the distance?
« Reply #2 on: 30/09/2006 11:07:16 »
One difficulty here is using the name photon that is associated with something that we all kind of take for granted. Perhaps describing the field as made of particles, and what is transmitted from one particle to another is a photon.
Perhaps you are right about the particles having mass. Maybe they don't have mass but are held together by energy. As you move through them you push them apart but never actually break the energy bond. But if they do have mass then the dormant particles perhaps make up the dark matter in space.
The photon emitted by a particle is caused by another photon hitting it. When a photon hits a particle, the particle discharges another photon in the opposite direction. It's important that the action/reaction takes place as this avoids the problems associated with the classic theory of the aether. Also I do not think that the particle field is actually displaced by an object, it is distorted like holding a flat sheet out and rolling a ball around on it, but in three dimensions. The further from the ball you are the closer to normal is the sheet. This means there is no turbulence or eddies in the particle field, something expected in the early aether experiments.

Thanks for your input, John.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: Does a photon travel the distance?
« Reply #3 on: 02/10/2006 00:03:28 »
Why try to change a theory which was proved more than a hundred years ago and has worked adequately ever since with one that does not work? there are much better ways of spending your time.

Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
 

Offline fortean

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Re: Does a photon travel the distance?
« Reply #4 on: 03/10/2006 09:21:49 »
What a brilliant idea Soul Surfer. Think of all the time and money that would be saved if we stopped examining existing theories. With the extra resources new theories could be developed that could go unchallenged. I bet within a few years we could have a theory for everything and then we could all go and do something else.
 

lyner

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Re: Does a photon travel the distance?
« Reply #5 on: 06/12/2006 18:02:33 »
I think you'll find that the (modern)  theories that stand up to close examination are usually ones that are arrived at by informed reasoning and experiment/ observation.  They result from a lot of hard and rigorous work and not published as soon as they take the fancy of the originator. Of course it is always good to question existing ideas but for every Newton there are ten thousand crackpots. Authority is very often right- however boring that may seem.
« Last Edit: 06/08/2008 22:50:10 by sophiecentaur »
 

Offline HeyHey

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Re: Does a photon travel the distance?
« Reply #6 on: 06/01/2007 19:02:58 »
Dear Soul Surfer

Scientific models are never exact, for three reasons:

System complexity

Most real systems are far to complex for us to have an exact model. If you’re studying a living organism, a weather system, or an economy, the best you can hope for is a macroscopic, qualitative model which accounts for the large-scale features of the data. Thus, medicine, meteorology, and macroeconomics are inherently ‘inexact’ sciences.

Computational Complexity

Even if an exact model exists, rigorous computation within this model is usually impossibly complex. You must always make approximations and idealizations to get any kind of answer. For example, we habitually throw away ‘small terms’ in an equation. Functions are often approximated via Taylor series1 , and the higher-order terms are then discarded.

Measurement error

Physical measurements are always imprecise. The best you can do is quantify the expected error. Science yields not exactitudes, but approximations. In special cases (eg. celestial mechanics), these approximations are in fact incredibly accurate. But it spurious to extrapolate from celestial mechanics to the rest of science.

Conclusion: we need to refine our knowledge continually in the never ending search for exactness and the truth (whatever that is and whether it can ever be realised).
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Does a photon travel the distance?
« Reply #7 on: 24/01/2007 09:37:32 »
I agree HeyHey.  I also expect that new theories will be devised to replace current ones more accurately but for example Einstein did not prove Newton wrong he proved him right most of the time it is only extreme conditions where relatavistic effects are important.  Starting out by saying in effect that the current scientific community is stupid is not a good way to win friends and influence people.

The ideas as presented in the initial statement do not correspond to the way that experiments have shown that the universe works they are not even remotely correct.

Any new theory that has any chance of working must first fit with current experimental evidence and then produce predictions that can be tested that's the way science works.
« Last Edit: 24/01/2007 09:39:27 by Soul Surfer »
 

Offline livingod101

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Does a photon travel the distance?
« Reply #8 on: 18/07/2008 01:46:15 »
I know this is very late, and reading this was interesting.  My two cents if I may.  "Soul Surfer" and "fortean" are both right.  If one wants to explore a theory regardless of it's validity, suggestion, and within "the norm"; we should keep an open mind and just explore the idea.  Kind of like putting on a jacket at a store and then taking it off, no harm done.  At the same time "Soul Surfer" you comment is more of a post effect of the theory where you would take time to prove, refine and bring forth the existence of it.
 

Offline theseakayaker

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Does a photon travel the distance?
« Reply #9 on: 05/08/2008 19:35:04 »
I like the idea of light passing from one photon to the next. It makes for an easier explanation. But the idea of photon having any mass at all creates too many other problems on the subatomic level. Mainly, the reaction of the photon with the Higgs Field. If the photon had mass, this interaction with the Higgs Field would create another division of matter.

But, to your point, if the energy is passed from one photon to the next, the photon would not "pass through" the Higgs Field but, maybe, be a part of it? Another layer?

I have always had a problem with the speed of light being a constant in nature. If one believes in the Big Bang Theory, in the first few seconds of the event, there would have been no "structure", no mass to have an effect on the speed. Thus, a very rapid expansion of particles and then a slowing as the Law of Conservation of Mass & Energy comes into effect. But which particles came first? Bosons? Fermions?

From non-reality to reality all current standards in the laws of physics fly out the window!
But from this creation of reality all laws are formed.

Maybe, this month, we will get a better understanding with the Large Hadron Collider! Just hold on to your hats. It may be a bumpy ride!
 

lyner

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Does a photon travel the distance?
« Reply #10 on: 06/08/2008 22:53:58 »
I feel that you are falling into the trap of trying to say "what's really there".
All Science can do is to say "it behaves as if".
To get your theory accepted, you have to come up with experimental evidence which is explained better by your model than by the existing one. If you can't do that, then there is no point in modifying the current model.
Sorry, but a lot of groundwork is needed.
 

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Does a photon travel the distance?
« Reply #10 on: 06/08/2008 22:53:58 »

 

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