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Author Topic: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?  (Read 25718 times)

neilep

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How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« on: 03/10/2006 13:07:17 »
I want to know this because I want to know.

How do fishies breathe under a frozen pond ?

As a firm believer in empirical study I took a fish finger/fish stick and travelled to Alaska and and put my fish finger through a hole in a frozen pond and then plugged the hole.

 Ten minutes later..I could not resuscitate the fish finger/stick.

So, how do other fish survive ?

Men are the same as women, just inside out !

otis01

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #1 on: 03/10/2006 13:18:25 »
The same way they breath in an un-frozen pond.

Gaia

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #2 on: 03/10/2006 13:19:54 »
Neil, I don't know the answer but will hypothesise.

Fish use the oxygen dissolved in water (unlike whales, dolphins and other marine mammals).

There is an ecosystem under the water as well as over it. Some algae have photosynthetic pigments and produce oxygen as a 'waste' product, just as land plants do, some plankton also produce oxygen. So the oxygen in water is not just that which is dissolved at the surface but that which is released beneath it.

When the water is frozen over this causes problems with light penetration, just as in the deep waters, so photosynthesis is not the answer here.

There are bacteria etc that are extremophiles and can survive in extremely deep water conditions. I wonder if there is something similar happening in the frozen reaches of your experimental wanderings. I'd need to dig out my old text books 'cos, I'm embarrassed to say, I just can't remember off the top of my head (or even within the dark recesses of it).

Gaia  xxx

neilep

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #3 on: 03/10/2006 14:21:05 »
GAIA...I for one don't beleive your text books are old !!..if you know what I mean...but thank you for your wonderful answer. I am sure you are quite correct ..or at least very close.

My premise was based on the assumption that the water freezes making an air tight seal. I thought that fish rise up to the top and gulp air..is this not right OTIS ?

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otis01

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #4 on: 03/10/2006 14:38:12 »
Fish do not rise to the surface and take in air. Fish take in dissolved oxygen that is in the water. Dolphins and whales do take in air from the surface.
 Ice does not create an air-tights seal, nor does it halt photosynthesis. Oxygen is still created under Ice by photosynthesis, and decomposition of organic matter on the lake bottom. Dissolved oxygen is also brought in by streams and rivers that flow into and out of the body of water.

neilep

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #5 on: 03/10/2006 14:40:09 »
So there you have it...you have answered the question ...YAYYYYY

THANK YOU OTIS.

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otis01

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #6 on: 03/10/2006 14:41:44 »
Neilep: this should answer completely for you.

http://waterontheweb.org/under/waterquality/oxygen.html


Karen W.

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #7 on: 03/10/2006 14:42:26 »
I believe that plants algie growing inside the water also produces oxygen in the water, is this a wrong assumption... I have two ponds here on my property and thet can freeze over solid , about a one inch layer of ice.. the fish become less active , but they don't die... I had one fish out that was froze pretty solid, and as hubby was handling it and he was moving fish back and forth in water as we loved fish,, we thought it was dead rather cold and stiff, but when moved through water the fish became active so we put it back and let nature take over cause we felt foolish.. trying to revive a stiff fish that was only waiting for water temp to change... they seem to be fine when unfrozen... whats with that! I guess he wasn't solid because he a good little swimmer..LOL

Karen
« Last Edit: 03/10/2006 14:44:04 by Karen W. »

moonfire

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #8 on: 03/10/2006 15:14:09 »
No cpr???  LOL

"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

Karen W.

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #9 on: 03/10/2006 16:01:36 »
Nope!! Is'nt that weird..I will try to resend picture if I can them.. will look later!

Karen

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #10 on: 03/10/2006 16:39:37 »
I know someone I was coaching giving a cat cpr...hehe

"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

neilep

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #11 on: 03/10/2006 16:50:27 »
quote:
Originally posted by otis01

Neilep: this should answer completely for you.

http://waterontheweb.org/under/waterquality/oxygen.html





THANK YOU OTIS SIR !!...that is a great link.

Men are the same as women, just inside out !

Gaia

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #12 on: 03/10/2006 19:21:32 »
quote:
Originally posted by otis01

Fish do not rise to the surface and take in air. Fish take in dissolved oxygen that is in the water. Dolphins and whales do take in air from the surface.
 Ice does not create an air-tights seal, nor does it halt photosynthesis. Oxygen is still created under Ice by photosynthesis, and decomposition of organic matter on the lake bottom. Dissolved oxygen is also brought in by streams and rivers that flow into and out of the body of water.



If you had read carefully what I said was that fish use water dissolved in the water UNLIKE dolphins and whales (that rise to the surface to get oxygen). Nor did I say that ice causes a water-tight seal, I merely said that thick ice could cause a problem with light penetration (which it can). I do agree with you about flowing water etc.

Gaia  xxx
« Last Edit: 03/10/2006 19:26:52 by Gaia »

Gaia

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #13 on: 03/10/2006 19:44:43 »
quote:
Originally posted by Karen W.

I believe that plants algie growing inside the water also produces oxygen in the water, is this a wrong assumption... I have two ponds here on my property and thet can freeze over solid , about a one inch layer of ice.. the fish become less active , but they don't die... I had one fish out that was froze pretty solid, and as hubby was handling it and he was moving fish back and forth in water as we loved fish,, we thought it was dead rather cold and stiff, but when moved through water the fish became active so we put it back and let nature take over cause we felt foolish.. trying to revive a stiff fish that was only waiting for water temp to change... they seem to be fine when unfrozen... whats with that! I guess he wasn't solid because he a good little swimmer..LOL

Karen




Hi Karen. Yes, algae can produce oxygen.

Gaia  xxx

another_someone

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #14 on: 04/10/2006 02:40:36 »
quote:
Originally posted by Karen W.
I believe that plants algie growing inside the water also produces oxygen in the water, is this a wrong assumption... I have two ponds here on my property and thet can freeze over solid , about a one inch layer of ice.. the fish become less active , but they don't die... I had one fish out that was froze pretty solid, and as hubby was handling it and he was moving fish back and forth in water as we loved fish,, we thought it was dead rather cold and stiff, but when moved through water the fish became active so we put it back and let nature take over cause we felt foolish.. trying to revive a stiff fish that was only waiting for water temp to change... they seem to be fine when unfrozen... whats with that! I guess he wasn't solid because he a good little swimmer..LOL



Many artic/antartic fish contain anti-freeze in their blood to stop the water from forming crystals, and so stop those crystals from causing damage to their cells.  This allows them to survive (albeit, possibly in hibernation) temperatures that would kill many other animals and fish.



George

Carolyn

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #15 on: 04/10/2006 03:23:01 »
quote:
Originally posted by moonfire

I know someone I was coaching giving a cat cpr...hehe

"Just Me, Lo" Loretta



I gave a puppy cpr.  She didn't even say thank you for diving in the pool in the dead of winter and nearly drowning from the shock of the freezing cold water.  Ungrateful little b****.

Carolyn

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #16 on: 04/10/2006 05:42:33 »
LOL  I know what you mean...Scruffy did not thank her owner either, more concerned about food...hehe

"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

Karen W.

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #17 on: 04/10/2006 06:26:33 »
quote:
Originally posted by Gaia

quote:
Originally posted by Karen W.

I believe that plants algie growing inside the water also produces oxygen in the water, is this a wrong assumption... I have two ponds here on my property and thet can freeze over solid , about a one inch layer of ice.. the fish become less active , but they don't die... I had one fish out that was froze pretty solid, and as hubby was handling it and he was moving fish back and forth in water as we loved fish,, we thought it was dead rather cold and stiff, but when moved through water the fish became active so we put it back and let nature take over cause we felt foolish.. trying to revive a stiff fish that was only waiting for water temp to change... they seem to be fine when unfrozen... whats with that! I guess he wasn't solid because he a good little swimmer..LOL

Karen




Hi Karen. Yes, algae can produce oxygen.

Gaia  xxx




 I thought that the algae produced oxygen.. even in water! WOuld not the water still move beneath the ice causing friction,, well may be not friction, but movement enough to get water moving and more air moving into the water!

Karen

chris

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Re: How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #18 on: 12/10/2006 19:35:51 »
There are several mechanisms underlying the survival of fish in a frozen pond.

Firstly, fish are effectively cold blooded; that is, their body temperature matches the ambient temperature of the surroundings. As a result, as the temperature drops so does their metabolic rate and hence their oxygen demand.

Secondly, cold water can dissolve more oxygen that warmer water. This is why animals in the Antarctic, such as sea spiders, can become much larger than they could in warmer water. As a result, there's more available oxygen at lower water temperatures.

Thirdly, fish have evolved to tolerate hypoxia and anoxic metabolism. Just as we can build up an oxygen debt by running fast down a race-track, fish can also burn sugars anaerobically. But rather than turning the results into lactic acid (which is what makes a tired athlete's muscles ache), fish can turn their anaerobic waste into alcohol, which they excrete in their urine. Therefore, after a long winter, your goldfish pond should be slightly more alcoholic than it was in the summer beforehand. I wouldn't advise you to drink it though!

Chris

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fishwhiz

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How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #19 on: 01/04/2008 01:34:29 »
keep the ice clear so the plants will continue to produce oxygen and your fish stick is safe from the deep fryer all winter.  lol

Supercryptid

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How Do Fish Breathe Beneath A frozen Pond ?
« Reply #20 on: 01/04/2008 03:34:28 »
Quote
I thought that fish rise up to the top and gulp air.

Electric eels do gulp air, actually.

 

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