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Author Topic: Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!  (Read 3151 times)

Offline Thebox

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Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!
« on: 17/03/2015 10:38:01 »
The curiosity of time and a wanting to travel back in time or into a future is almost certainly impossible in the means of rewinding back the clock and de-evolving the Earth.

So how is it possible too travel back in time or travel into a future time?

To understand this you must firstly understand any misconceptions about time travel, it is arguable that light from a distance star takes an amount of time to reach us, so we see that specific star in our past according to thought.
However this is not quite accurate, this idea is based on a misconception and the opinions and observation of a one way observer.

The only other evidence offered is a said time dilation, a time dilation thought of by use of an arbitrary device, a device that is not time itself and can not possibly alter the passage of time, a similarity to saying if I used the dripping water of a tap that was at a constant rate to record a passage of time, the equivalent to saying that If I stopped the drip, time would stop.

Firstly consider the one way observation, if I or you was on that star looking towards the Earth and vice versus with a clock, we would record the exact same increment of time pass by.

If we were both to travel toward each other through space, then again our clocks remain the same.

Our clocks are not of faulty mechanism, our clocks do not fluctuate by gravity displacement and motion.


The perceived thought of a star in our past is an illusion by simple not accounting for the distance travelled of the light through space.

If you travelled to the star at light speed, we arrive at the star the same time light arrives at the earth.


Why do I say time travel is possible then when I have just clearly stated it can not happen?


It is a simple concept really, imagine a sister planet to the Earth that was formed later than the Earth effectively being of a past Earth. 

Older is future , newer is past, travel to a less evolved planet and that is technically time travelling into a past.
Travel to an older planet that is evolved more than us and that is technically travelling into the future.

Maybe little green men with spaceships is not such fiction after all, that could be our very own future as we evolve to climate change.







 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!
« Reply #1 on: 18/03/2015 10:18:23 »
Quote from: Thebox
To understand this you must firstly understand any misconceptions about time travel, it is arguable that light from a distance star takes an amount of time to reach us, so we see that specific star in our past according to thought.
And that is 100% totally unrelated to time travel. It has nothing to do with it whatsoever. And nobody here would ever make the mistake of confusing one with the other.

Quote from: Thebox
However this is not quite accurate, this idea is based on a misconception and the opinions and observation of a one way observer.
Yeah, but you're talking about a misconception that nobody has made. It's only in your mind that such a misconception has been made by someone. Unless you've seen someone make such a bonehead assumption?

Here is how you can travel back into time. Consider making all observations from the inertial frame S. Then its possible for an observer (not necessarily at rest in S) to enter one end of the wormhole at t = 0 and come out the other end at t < 0. THAT is what is meant by time travel, certainly not looking at stars and light which left the star years ago and thus you're looking at an old image of the star.

Quote from: Thebox
The only other evidence offered is a said time dilation, a time dilation thought of by use of an arbitrary device, a device that is not time itself and can not possibly alter the passage of time, a similarity to saying if I used the dripping water of a tap that was at a constant rate to record a passage of time, the equivalent to saying that If I stopped the drip, time would stop.
Not at all true. For time to stop it would require all motion and all actions to cease everywhere in the region where the time has been said to stop. However in special relativity (SR) ALL clocks and ALL motion and actions are slowed down.

So you personally believe in sci-fi .  All clocks slow down! are you serious?  clocks are arbitrary try again.


My clock has slowed down and lost some minutes because the battery is going flat. Are you suggesting that I have just time travelled?

The only real and closest thing to time travel you will ever see is what I have explained.

 

Offline MichaelMD

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Re: Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!
« Reply #2 on: 18/03/2015 15:49:50 »
A spaceship could travel faster than light if it was hyperenergized by a technologically-enhanced force-field. That would supercede the conditions specified by Einstein as to exceeding the speed of light, which relied on ordinary cosmic conditions.

Not that I subscribe to Relativity. (I believe Time is a rate, which is determined by the rate of vibration of the elemental etheric energy units existing in the environs. Such a rate of vibration could vary, depending on the ambient macrocosmic energy-setting (such as near the magnetic influence of a cosmic body, versus being in outer space), which would control. the amount of energy acting on the elemental units that are vibrating there.)

All these concepts are at variance with the present scientific consensus, which says there is no such thing as ether.

This faster-than-light movement would not be the familiar inertial type of motion. Itr would be teleportation.
« Last Edit: 19/03/2015 12:31:03 by MichaelMD »
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!
« Reply #3 on: 18/03/2015 18:22:21 »
All clocks slow down! are you serious?  clocks are arbitrary try again.

My clock has slowed down and lost some minutes because the battery is going flat. Are you suggesting that I have just time travelled?

You're just exposing your own lack of knowledge by failing to understand the difference between a faulty clock running slow due to a failure and a perfect clock running slow without any failure.

If you send two flashes of light from here to the moon on parallel paths at the same time, they will both leave here at the same moment and arrive there at a later simultaneous moment. There is something fixing the speed of travel of this light to the speed of light, so neither flash of light can beat the other in a race. If you now make a light clock in which a pulse of light travels backwards and forwards between two mirrors, you could make it count up the number of trips the pulse makes between the mirrors until it adds up to a second, and then you have a light clock that can register a tick every second. If you move that light clock through space at the speed of light, the light will not be able to move between the two ends of the light clock as it can't go faster through space than the clock, so the clock will necessarily stop ticking while it's moving that fast. If you move the clock at 87% the speed of light, the light will be able to travel between the two ends, but it will only tick out only one second every two seconds. (The clock will also physically contract to half its length in the direction of travel at that speed.) The Michelson Morley experiment is a kind of light clock and it provides compelling evidence of this kind of behaviour. Until you understand that experiment and work through the maths to see why it behaves the way it does, you will continue to have an inadequate understanding of reality. I wrote a webpage about all this stuff a few years ago (it's still not finished and the text needs to be improved in places) - it contains some interactive diagrams that might help you, though they don't work on small tablets: http://www.magicschoolbook.com/science/relativity.html. Once you understand how a light clock is affected by movement through space, you can transfer that understanding to any other kind of clock, because all of them are ultimately governed by the speed of light in every aspect of their mechanism.

As for time travel, we are all time travelling as we move into the future, so time travel is certainly possible. We can't go back in time though for a number of reasons (e.g. because it would introduce circularity into causation), but a naive look at relativity makes it look possible if you simply ignore all the logical arguments against it. Faster time travel forwards is a more realistic possibility under Einstein's Special/General Relativity, but not under Lorentz Ether Theory - in the former, you can travel through less time to get into the future while in the latter you can't, but you are merely slowed down functionally such that you can reach further into the future before dying of old age. The former would be a more interesting kind of time travel than the latter.

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The only real and closest thing to time travel you will ever see is what I have explained.

You have not suggested anything new anywhere on this forum, but you have made a mess everywhere by backing up your claims (which are not unique to you) using faulty evidence due to your lack of understanding of the universe as it actually is (based on the results of experiments). If you do a bit of reading and learning, you might then be able to target your claims in the right way, and you'll then probably find yourself sitting in an existing camp founded by someone or other a hundred years ago. Either that or you'll continue to push faulty arguments based on lack of knowledge.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!
« Reply #4 on: 18/03/2015 23:17:37 »
All clocks slow down! are you serious?  clocks are arbitrary try again.

My clock has slowed down and lost some minutes because the battery is going flat. Are you suggesting that I have just time travelled?

You're just exposing your own lack of knowledge by failing to understand the difference between a faulty clock running slow due to a failure and a perfect clock running slow without any failure.

If you send two flashes of light from here to the moon on parallel paths at the same time, they will both leave here at the same moment and arrive there at a later simultaneous moment. There is something fixing the speed of travel of this light to the speed of light, so neither flash of light can beat the other in a race. If you now make a light clock in which a pulse of light travels backwards and forwards between two mirrors, you could make it count up the number of trips the pulse makes between the mirrors until it adds up to a second, and then you have a light clock that can register a tick every second. If you move that light clock through space at the speed of light, the light will not be able to move between the two ends of the light clock as it can't go faster through space than the clock, so the clock will necessarily stop ticking while it's moving that fast. If you move the clock at 87% the speed of light, the light will be able to travel between the two ends, but it will only tick out only one second every two seconds. (The clock will also physically contract to half its length in the direction of travel at that speed.) The Michelson Morley experiment is a kind of light clock and it provides compelling evidence of this kind of behaviour. Until you understand that experiment and work through the maths to see why it behaves the way it does, you will continue to have an inadequate understanding of reality. I wrote a webpage about all this stuff a few years ago (it's still not finished and the text needs to be improved in places) - it contains some interactive diagrams that might help you, though they don't work on small tablets: http://www.magicschoolbook.com/science/relativity.html. Once you understand how a light clock is affected by movement through space, you can transfer that understanding to any other kind of clock, because all of them are ultimately governed by the speed of light in every aspect of their mechanism.

As for time travel, we are all time travelling as we move into the future, so time travel is certainly possible. We can't go back in time though for a number of reasons (e.g. because it would introduce circularity into causation), but a naive look at relativity makes it look possible if you simply ignore all the logical arguments against it. Faster time travel forwards is a more realistic possibility under Einstein's Special/General Relativity, but not under Lorentz Ether Theory - in the former, you can travel through less time to get into the future while in the latter you can't, but you are merely slowed down functionally such that you can reach further into the future before dying of old age. The former would be a more interesting kind of time travel than the latter.

Quote
The only real and closest thing to time travel you will ever see is what I have explained.

You have not suggested anything new anywhere on this forum, but you have made a mess everywhere by backing up your claims (which are not unique to you) using faulty evidence due to your lack of understanding of the universe as it actually is (based on the results of experiments). If you do a bit of reading and learning, you might then be able to target your claims in the right way, and you'll then probably find yourself sitting in an existing camp founded by someone or other a hundred years ago. Either that or you'll continue to push faulty arguments based on lack of knowledge.

You could of just said Einstein's famous thought experiment using a light clock which is very simple to spot the flaws in logic and over rule by simplicity.

For the record do you not know that an atomic clock is also arbitrary?

The Universe is easy to understand why do you insist there is any difficulty to it?



 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!
« Reply #5 on: 19/03/2015 21:35:41 »
You could of just said Einstein's famous thought experiment using a light clock which is very simple to spot the flaws in logic and over rule by simplicity.

My point was about the difference between faulty clocks running slow and non-faulty clocks running slow. I was trying to help you see that all clocks must run slow when moved through space, and the interactive diagrams I linked to make it simple to see it because the pulses of light move across the screen at the same speed at all times. What it does to time itself is a different matter - with Einstein's relativity it probably becomes a bit too complicated for you to understand, but the other viable way of looking at it is the way Lorentz did, and by his theory time does not slow at all, but clocks run slow. If you are in the Lorentz camp, what are you trying to say about time travel that's new? If nothing, why are you wasting everyone's time on something that isn't new?

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For the record do you not know that an atomic clock is also arbitrary?

The units of time are arbitrary, but atomic clocks are measuring something which is governed by the speed of light, as is the mechanical pile of cogs beside my bed.

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The Universe is easy to understand why do you insist there is any difficulty to it?

There is no difficulty to understanding why clocks run slow when moved, so why are you claiming I'm labelling that as difficult? Your comment about a clock with a dying battery running slow indicated that you just don't get this stuff, even though it's simple. I'm just trying to see if you can make it onto the bottom rung of the ladder.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!
« Reply #6 on: 20/03/2015 20:58:00 »
You could of just said Einstein's famous thought experiment using a light clock which is very simple to spot the flaws in logic and over rule by simplicity.

My point was about the difference between faulty clocks running slow and non-faulty clocks running slow. I was trying to help you see that all clocks must run slow when moved through space, and the interactive diagrams I linked to make it simple to see it because the pulses of light move across the screen at the same speed at all times. What it does to time itself is a different matter - with Einstein's relativity it probably becomes a bit too complicated for you to understand, but the other viable way of looking at it is the way Lorentz did, and by his theory time does not slow at all, but clocks run slow. If you are in the Lorentz camp, what are you trying to say about time travel that's new? If nothing, why are you wasting everyone's time on something that isn't new?

Quote
For the record do you not know that an atomic clock is also arbitrary?

The units of time are arbitrary, but atomic clocks are measuring something which is governed by the speed of light, as is the mechanical pile of cogs beside my bed.

Quote
The Universe is easy to understand why do you insist there is any difficulty to it?

There is no difficulty to understanding why clocks run slow when moved, so why are you claiming I'm labelling that as difficult? Your comment about a clock with a dying battery running slow indicated that you just don't get this stuff, even though it's simple. I'm just trying to see if you can make it onto the bottom rung of the ladder.
Again with the I do not understand, would you like me to explain the Keating experiment back to you?

I did not know about Lorenz but if he says there is no time dilation and it is simply the clocks synchronization becomes offset by gravity displacement and motion then I am for a certainty in his camp because that is what happens.  I light clock such as the famous light clock experiment and one beam following a zig zag path by motion is simple to answer, the illusion is caused by man's interference adding a mirror and changing relative trajectory of light, remove the bottom mirror and observe the truth.
Orbit a mirror around and pointing towards the sun and observe linear incident rays always and a angled reflective ray by interference.


« Last Edit: 20/03/2015 21:00:15 by Thebox »
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!
« Reply #7 on: 21/03/2015 19:47:13 »
Again with the I do not understand, would you like me to explain the Keating experiment back to you?

I don't understand what you're trying to say there, but if you can spell it out clearly, I'd be interested to hear your account of the Keating experiment. Before you do that though, perhaps you'd enjoy reading this: http://www.conspiracyoflight.com/Hafele/HafeleKeating.html

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Orbit a mirror around and pointing towards the sun and observe linear incident rays always and a angled reflective ray by interference.

I can't work out what you're trying to say there either.
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!
« Reply #8 on: 21/03/2015 21:13:52 »
When we open the box will the physics be alive or dead?
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!
« Reply #9 on: 21/03/2015 23:19:25 »
When we open the box will the physics be alive or dead?

A box inside a box is still a box relative to inside of a box.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!
« Reply #10 on: 21/03/2015 23:26:44 »
Quote from: Thebox
I light clock such as the famous light clock experiment and one beam following a zig zag path by motion is simple to answer, the illusion is caused by man's interference adding a mirror and changing relative trajectory of light, remove the bottom mirror and observe the truth.
This is just more evidence that you don't know what you're talking about. There's no illusion here whatsoever. The light is merely part of the clock's internal mechanism. Light is used because it's speed is invariant between all inertial frames of reference (that's what we physicists call an axiom aka postulate). That you don't understand its operation is one of the reasons you don't understand relativity and its implications. No worries though. The rest of us mainstream physicists all over the world have understood it for the last 110 years.

Live a lie or live a truthful future. 

Why not just say light is a constant speed to all observers?

Invariant a word not of use in the famous light clock experiment, the light clock experiment being a variant to the linearity of light.  You add the mirrors, you re-direct the linearity by motion and add a bottom mirror which is not really there on the moving light clock, you make the illusion of outcome.


Take two light clocks, one stationary and one in motion/moving making the zig zag effect of light.

Add a third light clock to the experiment, except this light clock is a single line from left to right,

see how the famous light clock experiment is really stupid?

clock 1 in motion - vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

clock 2- natural light -  .............................


clock 3 stationary - :

clock 3 in motion with no bottom mirror -
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« Last Edit: 21/03/2015 23:41:01 by Thebox »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!
« Reply #11 on: 21/03/2015 23:31:38 »
Again with the I do not understand, would you like me to explain the Keating experiment back to you?

I don't understand what you're trying to say there, but if you can spell it out clearly, I'd be interested to hear your account of the Keating experiment. Before you do that though, perhaps you'd enjoy reading this: http://www.conspiracyoflight.com/Hafele/HafeleKeating.html

Quote
Orbit a mirror around and pointing towards the sun and observe linear incident rays always and a angled reflective ray by interference.

I can't work out what you're trying to say there either.

''The actual result was that the westward travelled clock increased in its time rate (more time had elapsed) and the eastward travelled clock decreased in its time rate.''


Travelling with rotation and travelling against rotation
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!
« Reply #12 on: 05/04/2015 03:56:44 »
When we open the box will the physics be alive or dead?

A box inside a box is still a box relative to inside of a box.
............................he didn't get it Jeff!!
« Last Edit: 05/04/2015 04:26:22 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!
« Reply #13 on: 06/04/2015 00:35:39 »
When we open the box will the physics be alive or dead?

A box inside a box is still a box relative to inside of a box.
............................he didn't get it Jeff!!

My first thought was he wanted to dissect me,
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!
« Reply #14 on: 06/04/2015 03:15:09 »
When we open the box will the physics be alive or dead?

A box inside a box is still a box relative to inside of a box.
............................he didn't get it Jeff!!

My first thought was he wanted to dissect me,
Here's a hint Mr. Box..............Go to Wikipedia and look up Schrodinger's cat.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!
« Reply #15 on: 08/04/2015 12:55:07 »
When we open the box will the physics be alive or dead?

A box inside a box is still a box relative to inside of a box.
............................he didn't get it Jeff!!

My first thought was he wanted to dissect me,
Here's a hint Mr. Box..............Go to Wikipedia and look up Schrodinger's cat.

 I did consider you might have being referring to the cat in the box. 
 

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Re: Time travel is possible but not how you imagine!
« Reply #15 on: 08/04/2015 12:55:07 »

 

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