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Author Topic: What makes lightning?  (Read 33756 times)

Offline Thebox

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What makes lightning?
« on: 17/03/2015 23:41:33 »
What makes lightning?
« Last Edit: 19/03/2015 21:23:54 by chris »


 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #1 on: 18/03/2015 00:11:41 »
What makes lightning?
Air currents moving adjacent to each other and over the ground produce static electricity. When the potential reaches enough voltage, the lightning will ark between the earth and cloud or at times, even between different clouds.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #2 on: 18/03/2015 00:29:22 »
if an electron hits an atom, its impact force will make the atom ring like a bell. if the force strong enough, the atom rings 4 t0 8 x 10^14 time per second, you see light.

from lighting to piezoelectric spark, same principle.   
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #3 on: 18/03/2015 10:12:18 »
Quote from: jccc
if an electron hits an atom, its impact force will make the atom ring like a bell.
It is true that at "room temperature" (around 25C), molecules can have various vibrational modes, depending on the number of atoms and the shape of the molecules. As the molecules zip around at roughly the speed of sound, they bump into each other and into walls, changing these vibrational modes, and often releasing or absorbing photons in the infra-red band. It would be fairly accurate to say that these molecules "ring like a bell". However, the frequency of the photons released is related to the energy change in the molecule, rather than the vibrational frequency of the molecule before, during or after the colission.

In contrast to the air molecules around you now, during a lightning storm, electric fields can exceed 1 Million volts per meter. At these voltages, any free electrons or ions in the air will be accelerated to high velocities, with energies of tens of electron volts. When they strike an atom or molecule, the energy of the impact is enough to rip an electron off the atom. Now you have 3 ions, which are all accelerated and crash into other atoms.

This process where the insulating air suddenly turns into a conductive arc is called electrical breakdown.

In this case, you cannot say that the atom rings like a bell; the atoms and molecules are actually torn apart, separating the outer electrons from the nucleus.

The power dissipated in the arc (Power =Voltage x Current) results in a rapid increase in temperature, to as much as 30,000C (much hotter than the Sun's feeble 5,500C). This high temperature radiates considerable energy as light, keeping the arc from going to even higher temperatures. The Stefan-Boltzman law says that the power radiated is proportional to the (Temperature)4. This means that lightning radiates almost 900 times more electromagnetic radiation than the same amount of matter at the temperature of the Sun.

Quote from: jccc
if the atom rings 4 to 8 x 10^14 time per second, you see light.
Matter at 30,000C does not consist of atoms, but of charged fragments, forming a plasma. The plasma emits a broad spectrum of "black-body radiation", with most of the energy in the ultraviolet, and a minority in the visible range.

When the electric charge is spent, the arc stops, and electrons are attracted to positive ions and recombine. The release of electric potential energy results in the emission of light,  producing a line spectrum which is characteristic of the energy levels of each atom (mostly Nitrogen and Oxygen in Earth's atmosphere).

 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #4 on: 18/03/2015 10:42:36 »
Thank you for the replies although there seems to be a difference of opinion.

I have no idea what you are talking about.


Can you just say in normal language what happens inside the cloud at point zero where the lightning starts from?


example language use - the lightning positive energy centripetal gathers and is contained by the negative energy around it until the positive energy repels itself and breaks confinement in a burst.

something explained that sort of way please.


« Last Edit: 18/03/2015 10:47:09 by Thebox »
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #5 on: 18/03/2015 11:13:57 »
when a positive lighting cloud meets a negative lighting cloud, if 1 is hot enough, the other 1 will jumps over with energy burst following a long tail of lighting.

the tails of the lighting spread out like a tree branch.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #6 on: 18/03/2015 11:23:12 »
now you see why during a strom you should not standing under a tree?
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #7 on: 18/03/2015 11:24:30 »
when a positive lighting cloud meets a negative lighting cloud, if 1 is hot enough, the other 1 will jumps over with energy burst following a long tail of lighting.

the tails of the lighting spread out like a tree branch.

What is a negative lightning cloud?

And which stream of ground lightning  is the positive,  the one that leaves the ground or the one that leaves the sky ?

Both streams the leader and tail both emit light, are they both not a positive?

« Last Edit: 18/03/2015 11:29:54 by Thebox »
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #8 on: 18/03/2015 11:29:00 »
it all depends on the condition.

wind speed, temperature of the cloud etc.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #9 on: 18/03/2015 11:30:41 »
it all depends on the condition.

wind speed, temperature of the cloud etc.

Both streams the leader and tail both emit light, are they both not a positive?

step leader and streamer to you guys.
« Last Edit: 18/03/2015 11:33:29 by Thebox »
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #10 on: 18/03/2015 11:33:36 »
the leader maybe is photoshoped.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #11 on: 18/03/2015 11:37:12 »
the leader maybe is photoshoped.

I have seen many documentaries and pictures on the internet showing the streamer.  The step leader is what falls from the sky, the streamer is the coupling emitted from the ground.



I think I understand lightning now thank you.

Does lightning actually always come from the ground and does this?


The central ball thing on the left being the Earths core, the central ball thing on the right being the Sun,

The glass and space in the glass being a magnetic field.

This being a shadow of our own planet or other planet or even the shadow of a black hole.


My question  still is about the negative or positive of the step leader and streamer.

You got to admire Tesla.

Sorry my mind has ran wild again and left me with a rather strange thought about a cluster of positive charged particles, the cluster particles would want to repel each other and tear the cluster of positive particles apart, positive attracts negative so a surrounding cluster of negative must surround a positive cluster to hold the positive cluster together until the positive cluster gains enough energy to explode out of its virtual confinement of a negative cluster.(lightning balls)



« Last Edit: 18/03/2015 12:43:29 by Thebox »
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #12 on: 18/03/2015 13:36:57 »
did tesla showed you the mechanism of lightning?
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #13 on: 18/03/2015 14:02:08 »
did tesla showed you the mechanism of lightning?

Of cause not Tesla is not alive.   I say what I see trying to view it from which ever scientists perspective I am considering and ask questions about what I see.

My thoughts are reckless today, 

Is positive energy anti-matter? on the assumption that positive energy repels positive.
« Last Edit: 18/03/2015 14:38:36 by Thebox »
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #14 on: 18/03/2015 14:56:38 »
Thank you for the replies although there seems to be a difference of opinion.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Can you just say in normal language what happens inside the cloud at point zero where the lightning starts from?

The apparent difference of opinion is because jccc is like yourself and likes to provide his own interpretation of reality. The rest of us agree, but you might get different ways of saying things.

Normal language? I assume you have not read the  links I gave you.
In theory you should read all of volume 1 before going here http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_09.html
But if you look at section 9.3 it gives a good idea of what is happening.
Try to understand reality before you invent your own - that goes for you too jccc  :D

Come back if you have any questions, but remember this part of the forum is for normal physics, not new theories.

« Last Edit: 18/03/2015 14:58:22 by Colin2B »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #15 on: 18/03/2015 15:03:53 »
Thank you for the replies although there seems to be a difference of opinion.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Can you just say in normal language what happens inside the cloud at point zero where the lightning starts from?

The apparent difference of opinion is because jccc is like yourself and likes to provide his own interpretation of reality. The rest of us agree, but you might get different ways of saying things.

Normal language? I assume you have not read the  links I gave you.
In theory you should read all of volume 1 before going here http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/II_09.html
But if you look at section 9.3 it gives a good idea of what is happening.
Try to understand reality before you invent your own - that goes for you too jccc  :D

Come back if you have any questions, but remember this part of the forum is for normal physics, not new theories.

I am asking normal questions, I asked about the leader and trailer , are they both positive?

I understand there is electrical energy in the air and in space from your link.  I have no problem visualising a neutralised energy with no  net charge.
« Last Edit: 18/03/2015 15:13:17 by Thebox »
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #16 on: 18/03/2015 16:23:49 »
Can you just say in normal language what happens inside the cloud at point zero where the lightning starts from?


example language use - the lightning positive energy centripetal gathers and is contained by the negative energy around it until the positive energy repels itself and breaks confinement in a burst.

something explained that sort of way please.

The problem I have talking to you is shown by the 'example language use' . It doesn't make sense to me. Why is centripetal in there?


Both streams the leader and tail both emit light, are they both not a positive?

Sorry, didn't see that question in the midst of the jccc stuff.

The thing to remember about electricity, both static and the stuff in wires, is that it is all relative. It is the potential difference between 2 surfaces that is the important thing to consider. So we can have 2 surfaces both negative, but if one is more negative than the other we have a difference of electrical potential ( a potential difference). If this difference is great enough the charges will be able to overcome the resistance of the air in between and equalise - in a discharge. The greater the difference, the greater the discharge. As the discharge passes through the air, the energy released excites the atoms in the air molecules by pushing the electrons to a higher energy level, as they 'fall' back they release light. It matters not if it is a positive or negative discharge.

Does that help?


 

Offline jccc

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #17 on: 18/03/2015 17:13:55 »
by pushing the electrons to a higher energy level, as they 'fall' back they release light.

what is energy level? are you sure there is such thing? do you have the mechanism?

a hydrogen atom has 1 proton and 1 electron as science said, what force keeps them apart? isn't they should attract each other with 10^39 g force?
 

Online alancalverd

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #18 on: 18/03/2015 18:36:34 »
What makes lightning?

There's a fair bit of poppcock in the replies above, and not a lot of physics. Perhaps you'd care to rephrase the question: are you interested in how clouds acquire an electric charge, how the lightning discharge initiates, or why we see it?
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #19 on: 18/03/2015 20:14:17 »
what is energy level? are you sure there is such thing? do you have the mechanism?

Dear jccc

Can I suggest you take the cover off your computer, take a hammer and chisel, pride apart the main processor and count the number of 0s and 1s you can see.

Children, don't try this at home!

 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #20 on: 18/03/2015 20:37:08 »
Quote
Does lightning actually always come from the ground?
No. In the tropics, most lightning is between clouds (the positive and negative clouds that jccc talked about).

Some lightning strikes extend upwards from the clouds up to the edge of space.

Quote from: Thebox
And which stream of ground lightning  is the positive,  the one that leaves the ground or the one that leaves the sky ?
Normally, in "negative lightning", the cloud is negative and the ground is positive.
Relatively recently, it was discovered that anvil clouds can be charged positively, and the ground negative, leading to very powerful events called "positive lightning".

Quote
Both streams the leader and tail both emit light, are they both not a positive?
Any flow of ions (positive or negative) is able to excite the electrons, or even rip the electrons right off the atom. Both cases will emit light.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning#Types
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #21 on: 18/03/2015 22:33:15 »
what is energy level? are you sure there is such thing? do you have the mechanism?

Dear jccc

Can I suggest you take the cover off your computer, take a hammer and chisel, pride apart the main processor and count the number of 0s and 1s you can see.

Children, don't try this at home!

1. i don't have my own pc.

2. i have hard time counting anything over 365.

3. what if those 1 and 0 jump over my head making an arc?
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #22 on: 18/03/2015 22:36:27 »
What makes lightning?

There's a fair bit of poppcock in the replies above, and not a lot of physics. Perhaps you'd care to rephrase the question: are you interested in how clouds acquire an electric charge, how the lightning discharge initiates, or why we see it?

I am interested in point zero,how the lightning discharge initiates, the initial point in a cloud where lightning starts its short journey.

I am confused how something that is light can be a negative?

I am interested in why the ground emits a streamer.






« Last Edit: 18/03/2015 23:01:22 by Thebox »
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #23 on: 18/03/2015 22:46:40 »
What makes lightning?

There's a fair bit of poppcock in the replies above, and not a lot of physics. Perhaps you'd care to rephrase the question: are you interested in how clouds acquire an electric charge, how the lightning discharge initiates, or why we see it?

Alan, the specific question I was trying to answer with my piece of poppycock was:

Both streams the leader and tail both emit light, are they both not a positive?

 

Offline jccc

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #24 on: 18/03/2015 23:02:00 »
i guess tesla is some how joined the this thread.

look all the 3 parts comments.

it is odd.
 

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Re: Lightning mechanism?
« Reply #24 on: 18/03/2015 23:02:00 »

 

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