# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: What makes lightning?  (Read 31744 times)

#### chiralSPO

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #75 on: 23/03/2015 12:52:49 »
I feel that science is missing the entire point, what goes up comes back down through itself.  If I dropped a drip of water into a  glass of water, would the water drip sink?
No, you are missing the entire point. Buoyancy has to do with the density of the object and the fluid (liquid or gas) that it will ultimately sink or float in. It's trickier to talk about objects that can mix with or dissolve in the fluid that they are sinking or floating in. If the object is denser than the fluid, it will sink because it displaces a volume of liquid equal to its own volume. Say a 1 cm3 cube of gold, having a weight of approximately 19 g is placed on the surface some water (approximately 1 g/cm3). For every cm that the gold sinks, you can think of one cm3 of water moving up one cm. This only works because the gold weighs 19 times as much. Essentially the 19 gram weight pushes the 1 gram obstacle up, out of its way so it can continue to fall.

Similarly, if we were to put a 1 cm3 plastic cube (approximately 0.8 grams) at the bottom of a glass of water, the heavier water will fall down, pushing the plastic cube up.

As I said, it's harder to think about objects that will mix/dissolve in the fluid, but if we look at timescales shorter than mixing time we can still see the same picture: If the drip of water has the same density as the water in the glass (same temperature) then it will not sink or float, but merely mix into the water that is there. If it is denser it will sink before ultimately reaching the same temperature and mixing perfectly.

If i was to add about 50,000 volts to wire surrounding an aluminium structure and it rises of the ground would you not consider that anti-gravity?
I have already said that electrostatic forces and gravity are totally different. They can oppose each other, but neither is "anti" the other. You also would not be able to lift an aluminum structure with 50,000 volts (negative or positive). If it were a flexible structure, it might distort to maximize the distance between same charges (like strings on a van de graff generator), but it will not rise off the ground.

''See'' this please, air is not buoyant when it is sinking......

Imagine two separate clusters of air molecules at ground level, let's say 10 molecules per cluster and 10 atoms per molecule.
Most molecules in the air have 2 or 3 atoms. For a gas, the density is directly related to how many atoms are in the molecule (actually the mass of each molecule).

Lets say (a) and (b) start off at 1kg.   0.981n of force and both clusters are only 1 inch cubed.

and both clusters have 100 atoms total volume.

Cluster (a) expands making now 50 atoms per cubic inch compared to 100 atoms a cubic inch of (b).

Less dense making less weight, newtons of force.
100 atoms, one kg? You're off by two dozen orders of magnitude (a factor of 1000000000000000000000000)!!!

This still does not explain why it rises opposing gravity,

neither does it account for that when the air is expanding it opposes itself.

Cluster (a) is held together by gravity, cluster (a) expands, cluster (a) opposes its own gravity when charged.

If you can imagine a positive charged invisible sphere, the sphere will always want to rip itself apart.
Gravity is not holding the clusters together it holds the cluster near the Earth. Yes, charged spheres will have an outward force.

Now at the very instance of the explosion the starting point(s), I call this zero point space,

This is what I want to know about lightning, the zero point space.

I have centripetally pressurised positive ion's clusters that then gain charge and explode at point zero.

The negative ion's absorb the charge and then collapse into point zero forcing an implode and then an escape seen as lightning.
You're making up language again.

What magnetic bottling holds the sun together?

Ummm... Gravity holds the sun together.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #76 on: 23/03/2015 13:08:18 »
I feel that science is missing the entire point, what goes up comes back down through itself.  If I dropped a drip of water into a  glass of water, would the water drip sink?
No, you are missing the entire point. Buoyancy has to do with the density of the object and the fluid (liquid or gas) that it will ultimately sink or float in. It's trickier to talk about objects that can mix with or dissolve in the fluid that they are sinking or floating in. If the object is denser than the fluid, it will sink because it displaces a volume of liquid equal to its own volume. Say a 1 cm3 cube of gold, having a weight of approximately 19 g is placed on the surface some water (approximately 1 g/cm3). For every cm that the gold sinks, you can think of one cm3 of water moving up one cm. This only works because the gold weighs 19 times as much. Essentially the 19 gram weight pushes the 1 gram obstacle up, out of its way so it can continue to fall.

Similarly, if we were to put a 1 cm3 plastic cube (approximately 0.8 grams) at the bottom of a glass of water, the heavier water will fall down, pushing the plastic cube up.

As I said, it's harder to think about objects that will mix/dissolve in the fluid, but if we look at timescales shorter than mixing time we can still see the same picture: If the drip of water has the same density as the water in the glass (same temperature) then it will not sink or float, but merely mix into the water that is there. If it is denser it will sink before ultimately reaching the same temperature and mixing perfectly.

If i was to add about 50,000 volts to wire surrounding an aluminium structure and it rises of the ground would you not consider that anti-gravity?
I have already said that electrostatic forces and gravity are totally different. They can oppose each other, but neither is "anti" the other. You also would not be able to lift an aluminum structure with 50,000 volts (negative or positive). If it were a flexible structure, it might distort to maximize the distance between same charges (like strings on a van de graff generator), but it will not rise off the ground.

''See'' this please, air is not buoyant when it is sinking......

Imagine two separate clusters of air molecules at ground level, let's say 10 molecules per cluster and 10 atoms per molecule.
Most molecules in the air have 2 or 3 atoms. For a gas, the density is directly related to how many atoms are in the molecule (actually the mass of each molecule).

Lets say (a) and (b) start off at 1kg.   0.981n of force and both clusters are only 1 inch cubed.

and both clusters have 100 atoms total volume.

Cluster (a) expands making now 50 atoms per cubic inch compared to 100 atoms a cubic inch of (b).

Less dense making less weight, newtons of force.
100 atoms, one kg? You're off by two dozen orders of magnitude (a factor of 1000000000000000000000000)!!!

This still does not explain why it rises opposing gravity,

neither does it account for that when the air is expanding it opposes itself.

Cluster (a) is held together by gravity, cluster (a) expands, cluster (a) opposes its own gravity when charged.

If you can imagine a positive charged invisible sphere, the sphere will always want to rip itself apart.
Gravity is not holding the clusters together it holds the cluster near the Earth. Yes, charged spheres will have an outward force.

Now at the very instance of the explosion the starting point(s), I call this zero point space,

This is what I want to know about lightning, the zero point space.

I have centripetally pressurised positive ion's clusters that then gain charge and explode at point zero.

The negative ion's absorb the charge and then collapse into point zero forcing an implode and then an escape seen as lightning.
You're making up language again.

What magnetic bottling holds the sun together?

Ummm... Gravity holds the sun together.

All matter has mass, all matter is held together by its own mass.

All equal positive forces will repel each other.

Let us take your bar of gold and add some energy to the gold , enough energy to cause the binding gravity of itself to molecularly fail and the gold to change form.

Can you not see that gravity is being opposed in the gold of the atoms when charged?

And 100 atoms per kg was just an example that would be easier to understand and work with rather than millions.

''I have already said that electrostatic forces and gravity are totally different. They can oppose each other, but neither is "anti" the other. You also would not be able to lift an aluminum structure with 50,000 volts (negative or positive). If it were a flexible structure, it might distort to maximize the distance between same charges (like strings on a van de graff generator), but it will not rise off the ground. ''

Incorrect, view a lifter device.

and also the energy vortex from the sun better known has curvature.

except the suns energy vortex is transparent and invisible and the sun is in the center of a worm hole.
A worm hole created by its motion.  A rolling road.

You say the sun is held together by its own gravity, in plasma Physics you have to magnetic bottle plasma, how is this different?

« Last Edit: 23/03/2015 13:48:53 by Thebox »

#### chiralSPO

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #77 on: 23/03/2015 14:18:25 »
All matter has mass, all matter is held together by its own mass.

The force of gravity is very, very weak compared to electrostatic forces. Think about it, it takes the mass of the entire Earth to generate the gravity that holds you to the surface. But this force is much smaller than the force that holds you together (the Earth won't rip you apart).

All equal positive forces will repel each other.

Positive *charges* repel each other.

Let us take your bar of gold and add some energy to the gold , enough energy to cause the binding gravity of itself to molecularly fail and the gold to change form.

Can you not see that gravity is being opposed in the gold of the atoms when charged?

Again, gravity is not what holds the gold together. Gold atoms are bound to each other by electrostatic forces (positive nuclei sharing negative electrons). You have to put a lot of energy into gold to melt it (melting point is 1064 °C), and this hardly changes its density (it goes from 19.3 g/cm3 as a solid at rt to 17.3 g/cm3 as a liquid at melting point). You have to get it up to 2970 °C to boil gold and then heat of vaporization is still 342 kJ/mol! (water only needs 40 kJ/mol) In contrast, the energy required to lift gold 1000 meters above the ground is only about 1.9 kJ/mol.

And 100 atoms per kg was just an example that would be easier to understand and work with rather than millions.

I understand that you are just supplying numbers that are easier to work with, but even "millions" is way off. Millions of millions of millions of millions are the numbers that we need to think about. It's easier to use scientific notation to discuss these numbers 1x1024 is just as easy to think about as 100 (1x102).

''I have already said that electrostatic forces and gravity are totally different. They can oppose each other, but neither is "anti" the other. You also would not be able to lift an aluminum structure with 50,000 volts (negative or positive). If it were a flexible structure, it might distort to maximize the distance between same charges (like strings on a van de graff generator), but it will not rise off the ground. ''

Incorrect, view a lifter device.

Sorry, I misinterpreted "aluminum structure" as something much bigger than you intended. Sure, you can lift a piece of aluminum foil with 50kV--just more proof that gravity is much weaker than electrostatics.

and also the energy vortex from the sun better known has curvature.

except the suns energy vortex is transparent and invisible and the sun is in the center of a worm hole.
A worm hole created by its motion.  A rolling road.

I wish there were a wormhole so close that it could be studied!

You say the sun is held together by its own gravity, in plasma Physics you have to magnetic bottle plasma, how is this different?

We resort to using electromagnetic technology to confine plasma because that's all we can do. The sun has enough mass that the plasma is confined purely by gravitational forces. Bear in mind the sun has a mass of 2x1030 kg! Essentially ratio of mass between the sun and you is approximately the same as the ratio of mass between you and an electron. That's also 330000 times the mass of the Earth.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #78 on: 23/03/2015 16:03:26 »
All matter has mass, all matter is held together by its own mass.

The force of gravity is very, very weak compared to electrostatic forces. Think about it, it takes the mass of the entire Earth to generate the gravity that holds you to the surface. But this force is much smaller than the force that holds you together (the Earth won't rip you apart).

All equal positive forces will repel each other.

Positive *charges* repel each other.

Let us take your bar of gold and add some energy to the gold , enough energy to cause the binding gravity of itself to molecularly fail and the gold to change form.

Can you not see that gravity is being opposed in the gold of the atoms when charged?

Again, gravity is not what holds the gold together. Gold atoms are bound to each other by electrostatic forces (positive nuclei sharing negative electrons). You have to put a lot of energy into gold to melt it (melting point is 1064 °C), and this hardly changes its density (it goes from 19.3 g/cm3 as a solid at rt to 17.3 g/cm3 as a liquid at melting point). You have to get it up to 2970 °C to boil gold and then heat of vaporization is still 342 kJ/mol! (water only needs 40 kJ/mol) In contrast, the energy required to lift gold 1000 meters above the ground is only about 1.9 kJ/mol.

And 100 atoms per kg was just an example that would be easier to understand and work with rather than millions.

I understand that you are just supplying numbers that are easier to work with, but even "millions" is way off. Millions of millions of millions of millions are the numbers that we need to think about. It's easier to use scientific notation to discuss these numbers 1x1024 is just as easy to think about as 100 (1x102).

''I have already said that electrostatic forces and gravity are totally different. They can oppose each other, but neither is "anti" the other. You also would not be able to lift an aluminum structure with 50,000 volts (negative or positive). If it were a flexible structure, it might distort to maximize the distance between same charges (like strings on a van de graff generator), but it will not rise off the ground. ''

Incorrect, view a lifter device.

Sorry, I misinterpreted "aluminum structure" as something much bigger than you intended. Sure, you can lift a piece of aluminum foil with 50kV--just more proof that gravity is much weaker than electrostatics.

and also the energy vortex from the sun better known has curvature.

except the suns energy vortex is transparent and invisible and the sun is in the center of a worm hole.
A worm hole created by its motion.  A rolling road.

I wish there were a wormhole so close that it could be studied!

You say the sun is held together by its own gravity, in plasma Physics you have to magnetic bottle plasma, how is this different?

We resort to using electromagnetic technology to confine plasma because that's all we can do. The sun has enough mass that the plasma is confined purely by gravitational forces. Bear in mind the sun has a mass of 2x1030 kg! Essentially ratio of mass between the sun and you is approximately the same as the ratio of mass between you and an electron. That's also 330000 times the mass of the Earth.

I understand the electrostatic force of atoms but that is not what I am referring to.   A positive attracts the negative (a) + (b) , (a) + (b) generates an (ab) field. this field is a weak force, both attractive and repelling?

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #79 on: 23/03/2015 16:43:34 »

I feel that science is missing the entire point, what goes up comes back down through itself.  If I dropped a drip of water into a  glass of water, would the water drip sink?
Quote
if it was denser than the surrounding water, yes. That's why there is life on earth - but the logic is a bit too complicated for this thread.

If i was to add about 50,000 volts to wire surrounding an aluminium structure and it rises of the ground would you not consider that anti-gravity?
Quote
no. no more than a crane or an aeroplane is antigravity

I am still considering lightning, just down a different path than a normal person would take.
Quote
alas, lightning strikes normal people too, by pretty much the same path as the abnormal

''See'' this please, air is not buoyant when it is sinking......
Quote
I guess that's a good definition of buoyancy, but pointless

Imagine two separate clusters of air molecules at ground level, let's say 10 molecules per cluster and 10 atoms per molecule.

Cluster (a) we start to add energy, the cluster then starts to expand, so per cubic mm, the density becomes less, in effect being lighter than cluster (b).
Quote
less dense, not lighter

Lighter meaning less Newtons of force.
Quote
but it isn't lighter - you haven't altered the mass

Lets say (a) and (b) start off at 1kg.   0.981n of force and both clusters are only 1 inch cubed.

and both clusters have 100 atoms total volume.

Cluster (a) expands making now 50 atoms per cubic inch compared to 100 atoms a cubic inch of (b).

Less dense making less weight, newtons of force.
Quote
no, becuse you haven't got rid of any mass, just spread it out a bit

This still does not explain why it rises opposing gravity,
Quote

neither does it account for that when the air is expanding it opposes itself.

Cluster (a) is held together by gravity
Quote
who said so? I thought you had put the molecules in a box
, cluster (a) expands, cluster (a) opposes its own gravity when charged
Quote
where diod this charge come from, all of a sudden? Heat doesn't make charge
.

If you can imagine a positive charged invisible sphere, the sphere will always want to rip itself apart
Quote
not in my imagination, nor according to Cavendish's experiment
.

I am sure you have seen one of these video before.

The energy from the explosion expanding making a temporal energy vacuum in the water , as the water pressurises and the explosion force radius weakens, the vacuum then implodes forcing the explosion upwards, upwards being the less dense and less pressure.
Quote
lots of words, no discernible logic or meaning

Now at the very instance of the explosion the starting point(s), I call this zero point space,
Quote
quite ambitious, equating time to space, and quite unnecessary: lightning is a mesoscopic phenomenon of classical electrostatics

This is what I want to know about lightning, the zero point space.

I have centripetally pressurised positive ion's clusters that then gain charge and explode at point zero.

The negative ion's absorb the charge and then collapse into point zero forcing an implode and then an escape seen as lightning
Quote
a wonderful concoction, but utterly unlike anything anyone has ever observed
.

A similarity to the underwater link without the water.

What magnetic bottling holds the sun together
Quote
none. gravity is not magnetism
?

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #80 on: 23/03/2015 19:04:11 »

I feel that science is missing the entire point, what goes up comes back down through itself.  If I dropped a drip of water into a  glass of water, would the water drip sink?
Quote
if it was denser than the surrounding water, yes. That's why there is life on earth - but the logic is a bit too complicated for this thread.

If i was to add about 50,000 volts to wire surrounding an aluminium structure and it rises of the ground would you not consider that anti-gravity?
Quote
no. no more than a crane or an aeroplane is antigravity

I am still considering lightning, just down a different path than a normal person would take.
Quote
alas, lightning strikes normal people too, by pretty much the same path as the abnormal

''See'' this please, air is not buoyant when it is sinking......
Quote
I guess that's a good definition of buoyancy, but pointless

Imagine two separate clusters of air molecules at ground level, let's say 10 molecules per cluster and 10 atoms per molecule.

Cluster (a) we start to add energy, the cluster then starts to expand, so per cubic mm, the density becomes less, in effect being lighter than cluster (b).
Quote
less dense, not lighter

Lighter meaning less Newtons of force.
Quote
but it isn't lighter - you haven't altered the mass

Lets say (a) and (b) start off at 1kg.   0.981n of force and both clusters are only 1 inch cubed.

and both clusters have 100 atoms total volume.

Cluster (a) expands making now 50 atoms per cubic inch compared to 100 atoms a cubic inch of (b).

Less dense making less weight, newtons of force.
Quote
no, becuse you haven't got rid of any mass, just spread it out a bit

This still does not explain why it rises opposing gravity,
Quote

neither does it account for that when the air is expanding it opposes itself.

Cluster (a) is held together by gravity
Quote
who said so? I thought you had put the molecules in a box
, cluster (a) expands, cluster (a) opposes its own gravity when charged
Quote
where diod this charge come from, all of a sudden? Heat doesn't make charge
.

If you can imagine a positive charged invisible sphere, the sphere will always want to rip itself apart
Quote
not in my imagination, nor according to Cavendish's experiment
.

I am sure you have seen one of these video before.

The energy from the explosion expanding making a temporal energy vacuum in the water , as the water pressurises and the explosion force radius weakens, the vacuum then implodes forcing the explosion upwards, upwards being the less dense and less pressure.
Quote
lots of words, no discernible logic or meaning

Now at the very instance of the explosion the starting point(s), I call this zero point space,
Quote
quite ambitious, equating time to space, and quite unnecessary: lightning is a mesoscopic phenomenon of classical electrostatics

This is what I want to know about lightning, the zero point space.

I have centripetally pressurised positive ion's clusters that then gain charge and explode at point zero.

The negative ion's absorb the charge and then collapse into point zero forcing an implode and then an escape seen as lightning
Quote
a wonderful concoction, but utterly unlike anything anyone has ever observed
.

A similarity to the underwater link without the water.

What magnetic bottling holds the sun together
Quote
none. gravity is not magnetism
?

''I guess that's a good definition of buoyancy, but pointless''

It is not pointless, science claims air is buoyant, when air is only temporal buoyant.

You will not observe point zero actions until the light is made visible.  All the energy action is invisible.

''but it isn't lighter - you haven't altered the mass''

No the mass may not alter but the newtons of force does for a certainty?

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #81 on: 23/03/2015 22:08:37 »

It is not pointless, science claims air is buoyant, when air is only temporal buoyant.
Quote
I know of no science that makes any claims - science is a process, not an agent. Air is certainly buoyant in the presence of liquid water, but sinks in an atmosphere of hydrogen, or even gaseous water.

You will not observe point zero actions until the light is made visible.  All the energy action is invisible.
Quote
I have no idea what your "point zero" means, but since lightning is principally a linear, not a point or volume phenomenon, it is irrelevant anyway

''but it isn't lighter - you haven't altered the mass''

No the mass may not alter but the newtons of force does for a certainty?
Quote
force = mass x gravitational acceleration. If you haven't changed m or g, you haven't altered F.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #82 on: 24/03/2015 11:39:40 »

''The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that the state of entropy of the entire universe, as a closed isolated system, will always increase over time. The second law also states that the changes in the entropy in the universe can never be negative.''

A closed isolated system, an object?

How can anything in the Universe be an isolated system ?

All systems in the Universe lose energy as much as they gain it, what is lost is gained to maintain stability.

Neutron stars attract atoms  and eat them, how is the laws of attraction possible?

How is the Universe an enclosed system, is science suggesting the visual Universe is inside of a solid?

''enclose
ɪnˈkləʊz,ɛn-/Submit
verb
past tense: enclosed; past participle: enclosed
1.
surround or close off on all sides.
"the entire estate was enclosed with walls"
synonyms:   surround, circle, ring, encompass, encircle, circumscribe, border, bound, edge, skirt, fringe, hem, line, flank; More
historical
fence in (common land) so as to make it private property.
"the open fields in the parish were enclosed in 1808"
seclude (a religious order or other community) from the outside world.
"a Mother Superior in an enclosed order"

2.
place (something) in an envelope together with a letter.''

« Last Edit: 24/03/2015 11:43:07 by Thebox »

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #83 on: 24/03/2015 11:47:26 »
You need to distinguish between "closed" and "enclosed". Read Bertrand Russell "Principia Mathematica" for a full explanation(I think it's Chapter 3 or thereabouts, dealing with bounded sets). But I don't see how it is relevant to this thread anyway, which is about an electrostatic discharge.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #84 on: 24/03/2015 12:01:12 »
You need to distinguish between "closed" and "enclosed". Read Bertrand Russell "Principia Mathematica" for a full explanation(I think it's Chapter 3 or thereabouts, dealing with bounded sets). But I don't see how it is relevant to this thread anyway, which is about an electrostatic discharge.

It is relevant because everything is connected by EMR, an EMR constant that in space has no net charge , only by interaction does a net charge establish, a net charge different to the constant.

Entropy of an object enclosed by light is dependent on light magnitude.

Zero point space, sorry i should explain better.  Everything happens at point zero space.

Zero represents 0=t  , time,

the point represents 0 dimensions, V=0 ,   xyz=0, V being volume, xyz being 3 dimensional space.

So if you place your hands 1ft apart then move your hands out of the way, then where your hands were imagine millions of zero point spaces where your hands where joined by the space of millions of zero point spaces.

Then you are on my wavelength of though and can see the complete matrix of the universe, not in a computerised sense though to be clear.

Even a 0 is to big to represent a .   ,  and even a . is to big to represent zero point space.

after the = represents zero point space  , =

Lightning starts from a  zero point space.

The big bang started from a zero point space.

I and you evolved from a zero point space.

zero point space-

In the link I do not see a blackness, I see matter everywhere but the matter is so far away and I can not see it,  I perceive it as zero point space.

''I know of no science that makes any claims - science is a process, not an agent. Air is certainly buoyant in the presence of liquid water, but sinks in an atmosphere of hydrogen, or even gaseous water.''

A process that explains air wrongly as buoyant.

Air is not buoyant to water it simply can not pass the waters density. The same reason we are always falling but the ground stops us falling.

Air naturally always wants to fall, and always does fall, except when some force stops it falling.

Each and every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

zero point space can never occupied by two particles occupying the same zero point space, any particles recombining in zero point spaces start an isotropic centripetal epoch of recombination,

This is how I see lightning, except positive charge being pressured isotropic and centripetal to the energies core, (micro scale), whilst the energy wants to repel itself and tear itself apart.

The pressure builds then is released to create a rift, (lightning), from where the space is distorted into an positive energy, and the energy is released, the zero point space, the surrounding negative force/pressure collapses forcing the observed pulse until the energy dissipates. A sort of oscillating effect expansion and contraction at the same time.

The negativeness that is collapsing gaining some of the expanding charge, then ''colliding'' at zero point space, to start a chain reaction until the energy is spent at that point and redirected by dispersion.

It could be has few as two positive ions being enclosed by negative ions, the negative ions wanting to crush the positive ions by attractive force and volume .

« Last Edit: 24/03/2015 13:10:26 by Thebox »

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #85 on: 26/03/2015 00:54:41 »
Try breathing slowly, relax, and learn some physics. It's much easier than you think, if you start with humility and observation. For instance

Quote
Air is not buoyant to water it simply can not pass the waters density.
try blowing bubbles in the bath, and ask yourself whether a sane, honest, sighted person could have made such a statement.

Or are you suggesting that H2O has a higher molecular weight than O2? The fact that wet air is less dense than dry air is the reason that convection clouds form in the first place.
« Last Edit: 26/03/2015 06:37:40 by alancalverd »

#### evan_au

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #86 on: 26/03/2015 02:05:56 »
Quote from: Thebox
''The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that the state of entropy of the entire universe, as a closed isolated system, will always increase over time. ...''
...How can anything in the Universe be an isolated system?

I agree that it is practically impossible to turn any part of the universe into a fully isolated system - with our current technologies, heat will always leak in or out. But people are trying (on a small scale) with quantum computers, and very precise measurements.

If you turned the Solar system into a closed system with a radius of (say) 200 million kilometers, all life on Earth's surface would be dead within a few hours. We actually rely on the general expansion of the universe to make the Earth a habitable place.

However, it is a reasonable hypothesis that the universe itself is a closed system, having no contact with other universes.
But it's hard to be sure, because we haven't explored the universe very thoroughly at this time.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #87 on: 26/03/2015 12:40:45 »
Quote from: Thebox
''The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that the state of entropy of the entire universe, as a closed isolated system, will always increase over time. ...''
...How can anything in the Universe be an isolated system?

I agree that it is practically impossible to turn any part of the universe into a fully isolated system - with our current technologies, heat will always leak in or out. But people are trying (on a small scale) with quantum computers, and very precise measurements.

If you turned the Solar system into a closed system with a radius of (say) 200 million kilometers, all life on Earth's surface would be dead within a few hours. We actually rely on the general expansion of the universe to make the Earth a habitable place.

However, it is a reasonable hypothesis that the universe itself is a closed system, having no contact with other universes.
But it's hard to be sure, because we haven't explored the universe very thoroughly at this time.

It is a reasonable hypothesis that the Universe is not a closed system, either could be true, and on a note of other Universes, if we were to observe matter beyond our boundaries, this would not be observing another universe, it would be extending our visual universe.

#### chiralSPO

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #88 on: 26/03/2015 13:45:40 »
I think this is a matter of definition. If the universe is defined as containing all matter and energy that exists, then it would have to be a closed system. Any matter or energy that "leaked out" would still count as part of the universe, where ever it is--there is no escape.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #89 on: 26/03/2015 14:16:28 »
I think this is a matter of definition. If the universe is defined as containing all matter and energy that exists, then it would have to be a closed system. Any matter or energy that "leaked out" would still count as part of the universe, where ever it is--there is no escape.

That would be only true if an infinite space did not exist!

#### Ophiolite

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #90 on: 30/03/2015 07:04:11 »
1. An assumption that the answers I am given may be incomplete.
All answers are necessarily incomplete. A reasonable person, in learning mode, expects to receive incomplete, simplified answers.

If they seek deep answers that take them to the edge of human knowledge on a subject, they need to invest substantial time and effort in acquiring a very sound understanding of the subject area first. Reading broadly for four years, as you mentioned earlier, simply won't cut it.

2. I can think for myself , I know enough basics about forces and work and energies to make a reasonable assumption
Your posts in this thread show that you do not know enough about forces and energies and that much of what you do know is fundamentally wrong. You are also blithely unaware of this limitation.

I do not consider the Universe and process is that complex or hard to visualise.
You are profoundly mistaken. I suggest you take an appropriate Open University course and begin your journey towards comprehension.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #91 on: 30/03/2015 14:28:08 »
TB - Your DOB states that you're 12 years old. With the comments you make in this forum and the near total lack of understanding of physics it makes sense.

At this point its clear to us that you are in all likelihood a young kid who knows the words of science but not what they mean. You've been nothing but trouble since you've gotten here. Please leave your ignorant ranting in the New Theories section where they belong.

My apologies Pm, this is the mainstream section for asking questions , and I agree that alternative or new theories do not belong here.
I do get carried away sometimes , my apologies.

Please do not consider any of my statements to be implying this as any facts. They are question statements, can it be this way, can it be that way, why isn't it this.

I do not know the answer to lightning, I am just questioning about it, not a theory in any sense.

Questions and questioning the answers, I thought that was discussion?

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #92 on: 30/03/2015 14:46:37 »
Quote from: Thebox
Questions and questioning the answers, I thought that was discussion?
You've been talking as if your promoting a theory. It appears that you're trolling which means that you create a thread innocently asking a question and then as things move along you push the theory you had really created the thread for. As such we see your questions designed to arrive at such conclusions giving you an in to push your theory.

You must think us very naïve to miss something that obvious.

It may come across that way  but I assure you it is not, if I had a theory on lightning it would be in the theory section.   Would there be any point to a discussion if we handle it in the manner of just defying Wiki quotes?

Or just posting a link that we can all access?   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning

On the presumption that some of you are scientists in the real world, and not just invisible cyber chatters, I would rather hear your own thoughts on lightning and discuss any other possibilities different to that of present information.

Your own words rather than an interpret of wiki, in which I have the worlds knowledge at my finger tips.

In saying that I would like to ask your opinions on the voltage of lightning, and polarities, is something that emits visible light not the same thing?  One comes from the ground and one from the sky, they both emit visible light, I understand one suppose to be a negative and one suppose to be a positive in polarity.

I presume they both have a voltage?

« Last Edit: 30/03/2015 14:49:10 by Thebox »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #93 on: 31/03/2015 03:34:05 »
Quote from: Thebox
Your own words rather than an interpret of wiki, in which I have the worlds knowledge at my finger tips.
You might think that's true but it isn't exactly so. There is a major difference between what you'll find written and what is actually true. For example: in most texts on nuclear physics the say that you can convert mass into energy when in fact that's not true in the sense both the amount of mass and the amount of energy remain constant during both fission and fusion processes. Then you'll hear people claim that light has no mass when in fact it does. What they really meant was that the proper mass of light is zero. Then there's the fact that all to many SR texts claim that "nobody" uses relativistic mass anymore or that it was an error to begin with when in fact that's one of the most inaccurate claims in physics today. I could go on but you get the idea.

That would be the reason I spend time on forums, to try to obtain the truths out of the rubbish.   Have you seen the internet lately ?  there is a lot of ideas that differ.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #94 on: 31/03/2015 03:45:15 »
Quote from: Thebox
That would be the reason I spend time on forums, to try to obtain the truths out of the rubbish.   Have you seen the internet lately ?  there is a lot of ideas that differ.
How many times do we ALL have to tell you? Pick up a darn physics text and start reading it!

What makes you think I do not pick up a text book and read it, like the kindly link that was provided?

http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/I_toc.html

I can't read that fast, there is a lot, also I have spent 4 years reading, I do understand most of the present science stance.

#### Ethos_

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #95 on: 31/03/2015 03:58:37 »
Quote from: Thebox
That would be the reason I spend time on forums, to try to obtain the truths out of the rubbish.   Have you seen the internet lately ?  there is a lot of ideas that differ.
How many times do we ALL have to tell you? Pick up a darn physics text and start reading it!

What makes you think I do not pick up a text book and read it, like the kindly link that was provided?

http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/I_toc.html

I can't read that fast, there is a lot, also I have spent 4 years reading, I do understand most of the present science stance.
If you "understand most of the present science stance", why do you continually ask such elementary questions? I agree with Pete, pick up a good physics book and start reading. After spending some time doing this, you may be ready to ask a few intelligent questions.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #96 on: 31/03/2015 16:13:52 »
Quote from: Thebox
That would be the reason I spend time on forums, to try to obtain the truths out of the rubbish.   Have you seen the internet lately ?  there is a lot of ideas that differ.
How many times do we ALL have to tell you? Pick up a darn physics text and start reading it!

What makes you think I do not pick up a text book and read it, like the kindly link that was provided?

http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/I_toc.html

I can't read that fast, there is a lot, also I have spent 4 years reading, I do understand most of the present science stance.
If you "understand most of the present science stance", why do you continually ask such elementary questions? I agree with Pete, pick up a good physics book and start reading. After spending some time doing this, you may be ready to ask a few intelligent questions.

You have to start a discussion with a starting point, often expressed in a question form.   What makes lightning?  a simple start that explains the discussion.

What happens at the initial starting point of lightning, the ''point zero'' I explained?

I do not believe it has been answered?  or I still do not understand the answer.
« Last Edit: 31/03/2015 16:15:46 by Thebox »

#### Ethos_

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #97 on: 31/03/2015 17:32:43 »
Regarding the question; "What makes lightning?"

Very simple, it's called electrical potential. Same potential that one can arrive at by raising the voltage between the positive and negative electrodes of a spark plug. When the voltage is high enough, the current will jump the gap, same phenomenon occurs with lightning. All very elementary Mr. Watson!

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #98 on: 01/04/2015 09:20:19 »
Quote from: Thebox
What makes you think I do not pick up a text book and read it, like the kindly link that was provided?
Because I made the assumption that if you actually did pick up such a text that you'd have to learn and know calculus and that you'd have worked hundreds, if not thousands, of homework problems and your knowledge wouldn't be as horrible as you've demonstrated it to be in this forum. Plus you claim to be twelve years old by the information you provided to set up the account. If that was the truth then you'd be unable to have learned calculus by the time you claimed to have started reading the Feynman Lectures. If you're not 12 and thus you lied then there's every likelihood that you're lying about reading the Feynman Lectures.

Every physicist, student and amateur knows that the Feynman Lectures are quite advanced. If you read and understood them then it would show. But you clearly don't have a good grasp of physics as all of use can attest to.

It's so sad that you thought that you could pull the wool over our eyes and pretend to know physics as well as an undergrad. But we're good at what we do and have dealt with people such as yourself trying to BS us for decades so we know that you're lying about your education.

That this is evident is clearly demonstrated from the countless times that we've all asked you very clear questions and you either avoided answering them as if we never asked them or your answer was that of a 12 year olds understanding.

Stop thinking that we're as ignorant as you are and you'll start to get on the right track.

Why would a nobody who was not going anywhere with their life, who was never going to be a scientist, learn Calculus, something they will never use in their life?

I still have not had my question answered about lightning, again attention focused on me rather than my posts or ideas.  This forum is no different from others, it takes little time for members to become anti-members.

#### Ethos_

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##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #99 on: 01/04/2015 16:31:31 »

I still have not had my question answered about lightning, again attention focused on me rather than my posts or ideas.  This forum is no different from others, it takes little time for members to become anti-members.
The answer to your question is found in reply #105. If that isn't good enough for you, try Wikipedia.............enough said!

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: What makes lightning?
« Reply #99 on: 01/04/2015 16:31:31 »