The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Can voltage differences be the cause of gravity and heat?  (Read 18051 times)

Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 47 times
Can voltage differences be the cause of gravity and heat?
« on: 28/03/2015 01:47:01 »
Is a positive low voltage of electricity attracted to a positive high voltage electricity?

Edit: Changed the title to a question.
« Last Edit: 29/03/2015 21:11:21 by evan_au »

chiralSPO

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1880
• Thanked: 145 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #1 on: 28/03/2015 02:14:24 »
In short, no.

Voltage is a measurement of difference in potential. If you say something is at a potential of 50 volts, you have to say what it is relative to. In many cases, such as batteries or capacitors, which have two ends, it is generally safe to assume that 50 volts means 50 volts between the two ends. In other cases, one can assume that it means 50 volts vs "ground." In electrochemistry (where we typically deal with millivolts, mV), the reference is often the potential at which two chemical species are in equilibrium, for instance ferricene/ferricenium or mercury/mercury oxide.

It is also important to note the difference between relative and absolute potential. Because there is a real difference between positive and negative charges, two bodies that are positive will repel one another, no matter what the magnitude of that charge is. Similarly two bodies that are negative will repel one another, no matter what the magnitude of the charge is.

The Coulombic (electrostatic) force between two particles Fc = k*QA*QB/r2 where k is Coulomb's constant, QA is the charge of body A, QB is the charge of body B, and r is the distance between them.

If the Q values are both positive or both negative, the calculated force is positive, meaning repulsive. If one is positive and the other is negative, then the calculated force is negative, meaning attractive.

Opposite charges will still attract, no matter what the voltage they are at (protons and electrons don't spontaneously start repelling each other in "high voltage wires").

Remember, there could also still be a significant gravitational attraction, if the bodies are massive enough.

evan_au

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 4131
• Thanked: 249 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #2 on: 28/03/2015 08:38:04 »
Quote from: chiralSPO
two bodies that are positive will repel one another, no matter what the magnitude of that charge is
I think that this is true, if the two bodies are at the same potential, relative to something in the surrounding environment which is at a negative voltage.

However, I expect that if two bodies have very different voltages from each other (compared to something in the environment), the two like charges will attract each other, to equalize the voltage. The majority of lightning is cloud-to-cloud, equalizing voltages within the cloud, even though the different voltages in the cloud have the same polarity relative to the relatively distant Earth. (But I am happy to be proven wrong on this!)

Quote from: Thebox
Is a positive low voltage of electricity attracted to a positive high voltage electricity?
An example where there is different positive voltages in close proximity is in an old-fashioned vacuum TV tube.

In this device, there are the following electrodes (among others):
• "cathode", which has a voltage near Earth potential (call this the negative electrode, -). It is heated to encourage the emission of electrons.
• "anode", which has a few hundred volts +
• "screen", which is at thousands of volts +++
All of these electrodes are held fairly rigidly by the glass tube, so the heavy TV will stand normal vibration when moving it around the house.

If you measure the energy of an electron emitted by the cathode (-):
• The electron gains energy as it moves from cathode (-) to anode (+): hundreds of eV.
• Any electrons which manage to pass the anode (+) will be attracted strongly towards the screen (+++), gaining thousands of eV.

If you measured the force between the electrodes:
• There is a force of attraction between the cathode (-) and anode (+)
• There is a force of attraction between the cathode (-) and screen (+++)
• Since the anode is positioned between the cathode and screen, the screen (+++) is attracted in the direction of the anode (+).
• I expect that the anode (which has a slight shortage of electrons) will be strongly attracted to the screen (which has a more severe shortage of electrons). This is because all of the remaining electrons in the anode (+) will be attracted towards the screen (+++). (..but I'm happy to be proven wrong on this!)

Colin2B

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1921
• Thanked: 125 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #3 on: 28/03/2015 10:13:45 »
Is a positive low voltage of electricity attracted to a positive high voltage electricity?

Are you talking about electrostatic charge or the voltages in an electrical circuit?  (also called potential differences)
In an electrical cct, voltage differences tell us which way the electrons flow - from negative to positive terminals. The voltages we measure are relative as explained above. (think batteries in series)
In electrostatics, voltage is a measure of the difference in charge. However, we have already defined our reference point - neutral charge, a balance. When there is a difference in voltage, it's the electrons and ions that are attracted and move or are repelled not the voltage. But because we are measuring relative to neutral charge, +ve and -ve are absolute values and so anything of like charge will repel, opposite will attract.
However, the short answer to your question is voltages are not attracted or repelled it's the charges, the detail as you see from previous answers is more complex!

PS why do you call this an energy question?  if you want to discuss this in terms of a new theory rather than established physics you will need to move the question to New Theories.
« Last Edit: 28/03/2015 11:22:47 by Colin2B »

Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 47 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #4 on: 28/03/2015 15:35:30 »
two bodies that are positive will repel one another, no matter what the magnitude of that charge is. Similarly two bodies that are negative will repel one another, no matter what the magnitude of the charge is.

Talking about charge , is the sun a positive charge?  is the earth's core a positive charge?

the ground an alternating charge?

« Last Edit: 28/03/2015 15:38:07 by Thebox »

alancalverd

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 4729
• Thanked: 155 times
• life is too short to drink instant coffee
Re: Energy question
« Reply #5 on: 28/03/2015 15:44:20 »
1. no

2. no

3. no

Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 47 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #6 on: 28/03/2015 15:45:14 »
1. no

2. no

3. no

why not , what is negative about the sun exactly?

if the sun emits positive and the earth,s core is also positive  ionisation and emits positive what effect would there be?

would there be an effect of pushing way from the sun like when we move away from the sun on our elliptic path?

Would the ground then lose its positive charge causing the ground to become more negative pulling us back? (like back spin on a snooker ball).

« Last Edit: 28/03/2015 16:04:35 by Thebox »

chiralSPO

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1880
• Thanked: 145 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #7 on: 28/03/2015 17:01:40 »
The sun is very very close to neutral. It has roughly the same number of electrons as it has protons. I say roughly because, with a mass of 2x1030 kg, the sun has approximately 1.2x1057 of each. So there is a very small chance that it is always perfectly matched, especially given the extreme temperatures. There could be a difference of a few million electrons or protons without really effecting anything, the sun is effectively neutral. If it contained only positive particles it would never have come together in the first place because the repulsion would be far stronger than the gravitational attraction.

What gave you the impression that it is positive?

chiralSPO

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1880
• Thanked: 145 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #8 on: 28/03/2015 17:07:55 »

• I expect that the anode (which has a slight shortage of electrons) will be strongly attracted to the screen (which has a more severe shortage of electrons). This is because all of the remaining electrons in the anode (+) will be attracted towards the screen (+++). (..but I'm happy to be proven wrong on this!)

I don't think this logic is right. I agree that the electrons in the anode (+) will be attracted to the screen (+++), but the protons in the anode will be repelled. The force on each proton should be equal and opposite of the force on each electron (equal charge magnitude, and same distance from the screen), and because the anode is positively charged, there must be more protons than electrons. Therefore, the net force should be repulsive.

Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 47 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #9 on: 28/03/2015 21:02:39 »
The sun is very very close to neutral. It has roughly the same number of electrons as it has protons. I say roughly because, with a mass of 2x1030 kg, the sun has approximately 1.2x1057 of each. So there is a very small chance that it is always perfectly matched, especially given the extreme temperatures. There could be a difference of a few million electrons or protons without really effecting anything, the sun is effectively neutral. If it contained only positive particles it would never have come together in the first place because the repulsion would be far stronger than the gravitational attraction.

What gave you the impression that it is positive?

Why on Earth would anyone consider the Sun to be a Neutral?  there is nothing neutral about anything that generates heat.

evan_au

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 4131
• Thanked: 249 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #10 on: 28/03/2015 21:38:52 »
Quote from: Thebox
there is nothing neutral about anything that generates heat.
• A fire generates heat, but is electrically neutral
• A firefly generates light, but is electrically neutral
• A nuclear reactor generates heat, but is electrically neutral.
• A meteor crashing into Earth's atmosphere generates heat, but is electrically neutral
• Water freezing releases heat, but is electrically neutral
• Earth's core releases heat, but is electrically neutral
• A diesel engine generates heat, but is electrically neutral
• Even a wire which is generating heat due to an electric current flowing through it is almost exactly electrically neutral: If you turn off the electricity supply, there is almost no voltage left in the wire.

So production of heat (conversion of one form of energy into another form of energy) does not require an electric charge.
Some devices like the electric kettle use the flow of charge to generate heat (while keeping the total charge neutral).

Are you perhaps thinking of some other measure like Power or Temperature which changes in a positive direction when something is producing heat?

Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 47 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #11 on: 28/03/2015 21:48:00 »
Quote from: Thebox
there is nothing neutral about anything that generates heat.
• A fire generates heat, but is electrically neutral
• A firefly generates light, but is electrically neutral
• A nuclear reactor generates heat, but is electrically neutral.
• A meteor crashing into Earth's atmosphere generates heat, but is electrically neutral
• Water freezing releases heat, but is electrically neutral
• Earth's core releases heat, but is electrically neutral
• A diesel engine generates heat, but is electrically neutral
• Even a wire which is generating heat due to an electric current flowing through it is almost exactly electrically neutral: If you turn off the electricity supply, there is almost no voltage left in the wire.

So production of heat (conversion of one form of energy into another form of energy) does not require an electric charge.
Some devices like the electric kettle use the flow of charge to generate heat (while keeping the total charge neutral).

Are you perhaps thinking of some other measure like Power or Temperature which changes in a positive direction when something is producing heat?

My reply was a bit thoughtless now I consider it.

Maybe I am considering power,

The sun emits energy , the earths core emits energy both being the same energy except the core is a bit weaker?

PmbPhy

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2773
• Thanked: 38 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #12 on: 29/03/2015 04:35:20 »
Quote from: Thebox
Is a positive low voltage of electricity attracted to a positive high voltage electricity?
Only objects can be attracted to other objects. Voltages can't be attracted to other voltages. It'd have no meaning to do so. In any case this is not a question about energy but of voltage.

evan_au

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 4131
• Thanked: 249 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #13 on: 29/03/2015 11:45:28 »
Quote from: ChiralSPO
The force on each proton should be equal and opposite of the force on each electron (equal charge magnitude, and same distance from the screen)
I am still trying to think through this scenario.

Are we missing something in that the electrodes are not point charges, but are macroscopic conductive objects?

In this case:
• the mobile electrons on the anode will cluster on the side away from the negative electrode (ie on the side facing the screen), leaving a positive charge on the side facing the cathode*.
• the electrons in the screen will move away from the more negative anode, leaving an excess of positive charge on the side facing the anode.
• The (excess positive charge on the side of the screen which faces the anode) will be attracted to the (excess negative charge on the side of the anode facing the screen). Could this not result in a net attraction between anode and screen?
• If the screen were free to move towards the anode, as soon as the anode and screen touched, the voltages would equalize, and the net excess of positive charge on both objects would then repel them from each other, and attract them towards the cathode.
*I vaguely recall this effect as being called electric field polarisation; I can see descriptions of it in insulators, but not in conductors?

Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 47 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #14 on: 29/03/2015 14:09:06 »
Quote from: Thebox
Is a positive low voltage of electricity attracted to a positive high voltage electricity?
Only objects can be attracted to other objects. Voltages can't be attracted to other voltages. It'd have no meaning to do so. In any case this is not a question about energy but of voltage.

A voltage is not attracted to a voltage, really?   what about lightning ground streamers from the ground making a connection with the incident stream?.

Are you saying an objects positive energy is different?

Look at ourselves, we contain electricity, but we contain also more negative than positive, hence attracted to the core and the much more positive of the ground.

A+B=C=equilibrium

A+B=C+A=A=p where (p) is momentum.

A+B=C-A=B=G where (G) is gravity

Gravity
« Last Edit: 29/03/2015 14:16:25 by Thebox »

chiralSPO

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1880
• Thanked: 145 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #15 on: 29/03/2015 14:13:24 »
There will be a polarization effect, and in some rare scenarios it *might* be able to overcome the Coulombic repulsion, I would have to think about this more to see if I could come up with a case that resulted in attraction. This will depend on the actual amounts of charge on each object, the size and polarizability of the less positive object, and the distance between them (if the objects are close enough together, and the polarized object long enough, then the assumption that the negative and positive components have the same average distance fails)

Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 47 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #16 on: 29/03/2015 14:18:56 »
There will be a polarization effect, and in some rare scenarios it *might* be able to overcome the Coulombic repulsion, I would have to think about this more to see if I could come up with a case that resulted in attraction. This will depend on the actual amounts of charge on each object, the size and polarizability of the less positive object, and the distance between them (if the objects are close enough together, and the polarized object long enough, then the assumption that the negative and positive components have the same average distance fails)

Just consider the Cavendish experiment, the larger ball having a greater mass than the smaller balls, a greater positive and a greater negative than the smaller ball, the smaller ball is attracted to the larger ball.

chiralSPO

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1880
• Thanked: 145 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #17 on: 29/03/2015 14:19:42 »
Quote from: Thebox
Is a positive low voltage of electricity attracted to a positive high voltage electricity?
Only objects can be attracted to other objects. Voltages can't be attracted to other voltages. It'd have no meaning to do so. In any case this is not a question about energy but of voltage.

A voltage is not attracted to a voltage, really?   what about lightning ground streamers from the ground making a connection with the incident stream?.

He means that a voltage is not the physical object that is being attracted or repelled. It's kind of like saying that a heaviness is not attracted to another heaviness. The "heaviness" is an abstraction--it is one object attracting another, by virtue of their masses.

Are you saying an objects positive energy is different?

Look at ourselves, we contain electricity, but we contain also more negative than positive, hence attracted to the core and the much more positive of the ground.

A+B=C=equilibrium

A+B=C+A=A

A+B=C-A=B
Gravity

You really need to stop using that term, "positive energy" you are confusing yourself and others with it. We do contain electrical charges, but we are not more negative than positive. We are neutral! We are attracted to the Earth because of gravitation. It has nothing to do with charge or heat.

Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 47 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #18 on: 29/03/2015 14:26:29 »
Quote from: Thebox
Is a positive low voltage of electricity attracted to a positive high voltage electricity?
Only objects can be attracted to other objects. Voltages can't be attracted to other voltages. It'd have no meaning to do so. In any case this is not a question about energy but of voltage.

A voltage is not attracted to a voltage, really?   what about lightning ground streamers from the ground making a connection with the incident stream?.

He means that a voltage is not the physical object that is being attracted or repelled. It's kind of like saying that a heaviness is not attracted to another heaviness. The "heaviness" is an abstraction--it is one object attracting another, by virtue of their masses.

Are you saying an objects positive energy is different?

Look at ourselves, we contain electricity, but we contain also more negative than positive, hence attracted to the core and the much more positive of the ground.

A+B=C=equilibrium

A+B=C+A=A

A+B=C-A=B
Gravity

You really need to stop using that term, "positive energy" you are confusing yourself and others with it. We do contain electrical charges, but we are not more negative than positive. We are neutral! We are attracted to the Earth because of gravitation. It has nothing to do with charge or heat.

We are not neutral, we are at an equilibrium to gravity.   We were born here.

The normal force of an object on the ground is not Fn=0.

the normal force is mass and the newtons, Fn=newtons.

Newtons is a loss, in free fall an object weighs nothing.

PmbPhy

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2773
• Thanked: 38 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #19 on: 29/03/2015 14:31:23 »
chiralSPO - Haven't you learned that TB can't be reasoned with yet?

chiralSPO

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1880
• Thanked: 145 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #20 on: 29/03/2015 14:36:21 »

We are not neutral, we are at an equilibrium to gravity.   We were born here.
I agree that we are attracted to the Earth with a force that is non-zero. But we are electrically neutral. I don't see what being born here has to do with it. If we had traveled here from Mars, we would still have mass, and still be attracted to the Earth's surface.

the normal force is mass and the newtons, Fn=newtons.

Newtons is a loss, in free fall an object weighs nothing.

This is nonsense. The normal force is what keeps us from falling through the ground. Fn has units of newtons, but is not equal to newtons. An object in free fall weighs nothing but it still has mass.

chiralSPO

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1880
• Thanked: 145 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #21 on: 29/03/2015 14:36:47 »
chiralSPO - Haven't you learned that TB can't be reasoned with yet?

I'm just about to give up.

Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 47 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #22 on: 29/03/2015 14:36:59 »
chiralSPO - Haven't you learned that TB can't be reasoned with yet?

Yes I can. Science literally says that black and white, is not black and white.

What  am saying is sound logic, I may not have all the correct terms but the A+B=C explains it, an electron field and a proton filed , two fields with opposite effects that can polarize to create gravity an attractive force.

Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 47 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #23 on: 29/03/2015 14:41:07 »

We are not neutral, we are at an equilibrium to gravity.   We were born here.
I agree that we are attracted to the Earth with a force that is non-zero. But we are electrically neutral. I don't see what being born here has to do with it. If we had traveled here from Mars, we would still have mass, and still be attracted to the Earth's surface.

the normal force is mass and the newtons, Fn=newtons.

Newtons is a loss, in free fall an object weighs nothing.

This is nonsense. The normal force is what keeps us from falling through the ground. Fn has units of newtons, but is not equal to newtons. An object in free fall weighs nothing but it still has mass.

Consider the Caesium atom and the effect of a ''time-dilation''  , this shows you the influence of loss to gravity of atoms, we are always at this loss, we base it has neutral not realising we are already at loss.

+1 moves a leaf, +2 moves a twigg, +100 blows over buildings, + 1 and air rises, -1 and water freezes.

I do understand it, a+b=ab   a field that both repels and attracts at the same time. I will use proper algebra if it helps.

a=electron

b=proton

need to account for neutrons.

Take a piece of metal and add energy, the atoms become excited and produce a polarization that then repels each other expanding the matter.

When you stop applying the energy , ''the thermodynamic intake'', the metal  then thermodynamically releases the energy contracting back to form when the excitement returns to an equilibium of the atoms polarity.

« Last Edit: 29/03/2015 14:52:34 by Thebox »

chiralSPO

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1880
• Thanked: 145 times
Re: Energy question
« Reply #24 on: 29/03/2015 14:50:16 »
Consider the Caesium atom and the effect of a ''time-dilation''  , this shows you the influence of loss to gravity of atoms, we are always at this loss, we base it has neutral not realising we are already at loss.

+1 moves a leaf, +2 moves a twigg, +100 blows over buildings, + 1 and air rises, -1 and water freezes.

I do understand it, a+b=ab   a field that both repels and attracts at the same time. I will use proper algebra if it helps.

a=electron

b=proton
None of this makes any sense "proper algebra" or not...

need to account for neutrons.

At least you recognize that neutrons don't fit into your theory.

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Energy question
« Reply #24 on: 29/03/2015 14:50:16 »