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Author Topic: Periodic Table - a challenge!  (Read 11408 times)

Offline bonsaikitten

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Periodic Table - a challenge!
« on: 05/10/2006 10:33:53 »
Does anyone know a simple nursery-rhyme type song to help me teach my two and a half year old son the periodic table?

Using standard methods, he can only get as far as Neon.

Many thanks.


 

Offline Gaia

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #1 on: 05/10/2006 12:22:24 »
Don't think it will help a 2 yr old but have you listened to Tom Lehrer?

Gaia  xxx
 

Offline bonsaikitten

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #2 on: 05/10/2006 14:27:07 »
I did try John's "The elements" with him, but he only got to verse 4 ("There's holmium and helium...". I think the song was a bit fast for him too.

I'd also like him to remember the atomic numbers etc, rather than just the names.

Any advice welcome!
 

another_someone

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #3 on: 05/10/2006 20:14:23 »
A 2 year old remembering the periodic table - my, that is ambitious.  True, some orthodox Jews expect their 2 year old children to be able to recite the Torah, which is a much greater feet, but it still seems ambitious to for the average 2 year old to know the periodic table.

I would ask why you wish this.  To be able to learn something by rote, without understanding its meaning, seems to me to be of limited value.  Personally, I'd be happy if they knew a fraction of the table, but understood what the position of an element within the table actually meant.



George
 

Offline bonsaikitten

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #4 on: 05/10/2006 22:48:53 »
The average 2 year old watches cartoons. Is this more beneficial than rote learning the Periodic Table? How did *you* learn your multiplication tables? Did you memorise them or gather a deep understanding of numbers first?

Don't underestimate the power of rote learning - see
newbielink:http://www.journalonline.co.uk/article/1000265.aspx [nonactive] .

I for one have benefited from such techniques. I have successfully memorised the postcodes (US Zip codes) for every street withn a 10 mile radius of my house. That totlas 12,346 postcodes.

Beat that!

 

another_someone

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #5 on: 06/10/2006 00:22:48 »
Must admit that we did not have a television when I was two years old (but we did have a short wave radio), and not until I was 11 - so there went my years of cartoon watching.

As for learning my multiplication tables - I remember that time when, and there was a contest of wills between the school and myself on the issue, which the school only won very grudgingly.  To this day, I am not sure that I gained anything by learning my times table.  I have learned multiplication results that I have used regularly, and quickly forgotten those that I did not.  Having an interest in computers, I quickly learned to deal with binary simply because it fitted in with my needs, and I understood what I was doing with it, but I could easier tell to the powers of two up unto the 16th power than I could my 7 times table.

Yes, when I was at school, I did go through a period of remembering all sorts of strange numbers just for the sake of it Ė like memorising the number of square centimetres in a square light year.  Never had any use for most of it, and quickly forgot it again.

OK, different people are different, and I am not trying to suggest that what is right for me is necessarily right for you; but equally, I would suggest that what is right for you is not necessarily right for everyone else.





George
« Last Edit: 06/10/2006 00:24:25 by another_someone »
 

Offline Mr Andrew

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #6 on: 06/10/2006 01:29:38 »
I tend to agree with another_someone on this.  The periodic table is a tool for understanding the world we live in.  If one intends to use the periodic table, he probably also intends to study the physical world in some way.  That can't be done without a basic understanding of the concepts of mass or velocity for example.  I suggest teaching your son about the physical world and when it becomes necessary that he know the periodic table then he will either (having begun on his career as a physicist at a young age and thusly being very intelligent) figure it out for himself or you may need to introduce him to the concepts.  As another_someone already stated, it's useless to have something memorized if you don't know how to use it.  Unless you think your son will grasp atomic orbitals at 2.5 years old, I would hold out on teaching the periodic table.

"His mind is the ultimate weapon!"-MacGyver television series
 

Offline rosy

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #7 on: 06/10/2006 08:55:15 »
As a chemist, I'd say there was no value at all in learning the periodic table by rote, less (if that's possible) in learning the names of the elements without the proper order (which is, after all, the whole point of the table). It's all about patterns of chemical behaviour, electron arrangements, etc., which are going to be way over the head of an average 2 year old (and probably of a ten year old too).
If your aim is to help your child get ahead in science, encourage him to be interested in experimenting with the world around him (including water play etc.) and encourage him to discuss how things work.
 

Offline bonsaikitten

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #8 on: 06/10/2006 09:27:40 »
How about just getting him to copy it out - his writing is very advanced for his age?
 

Offline Hadrian

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #9 on: 06/10/2006 09:34:25 »
To recite if I was able
my daddies periodic table
Make him proud as he can be
I be his super little chimpanzee
A clever dad without any rival
Ahead in race for my survival
He as planed my future path
So many lines upon a graph
Securing his immortality
By living on in my reality
though I love lots anyway
I hope I have nerve
to run away


What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
« Last Edit: 06/10/2006 09:54:25 by Hadrian »
 

Offline bonsaikitten

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #10 on: 06/10/2006 11:56:35 »
okey dokey I get your drift. Perhaps I should sit him in front of the TV and watch that BBC program aimed at youngsters. What's it called, 'The Tweeties' or something? How can a program about people dressed as oversized birds be educational?!



 

Offline Hadrian

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #11 on: 06/10/2006 12:42:49 »
All I want as a parent is to have happy healthy and well adjusted children.  After that all I can do is create an environment where they can safely explore and be challenge by the world around them at their own pace. I took me time to realise that it there life that they will spend with there contemporise not mine. I look back on my life and there are lots of mistakes and triumphs all of which have lead me to who I am. I would not change a thing at the risk of being someone else. My father wanted me to be a man of law. But he did not know who I was, or he would have known that I was dyslectic and needed help with my education. Once I could not fulfil his dream he wrote me off as an idiot and I packed off to boarding school.  

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
 

Offline Karen W.

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #12 on: 06/10/2006 15:24:22 »
OH Hadriian....GAAWWWD! You are certainly Know idiot, Your father was from another place and time where they were ignorant to learning disabilities and some people just stay stuck in the unlearned new information about learning disabilities... My son also was diagnosed with Dyslexia, and he is wonderful and smart and witty and great just like you are.. he has had to struggle and learn through different methods, but He has done well as I know you have.. You are an d incredible example of shinning success! BRavo!!

Karen
 

Offline Hadrian

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #13 on: 06/10/2006 17:26:47 »
quote:
Originally posted by Karen W.

OH Hadriian....GAAWWWD! You are certainly Know idiot, Your father was from another place and time where they were ignorant to learning disabilities and some people just stay stuck in the unlearned new information about learning disabilities... My son also was diagnosed with Dyslexia, and he is wonderful and smart and witty and great just like you are.. he has had to struggle and learn through different methods, but He has done well as I know you have.. You are an d incredible example of shinning success! BRavo!!

Karen




I fully accept he was doing his best and was operating under his view of the world and what was important to him. I also hold only love in my heart for him.

All that as taken then I was struck by this topic, we all and I mean by that parents, have to struggle to keep our stuff out of how we nurture our children. It all too easy, to see them an extension to our own life, something to live on through. It is all easy to avoid seeing them as little people with lives of there own.

It is perhaps far easer to damage them then to help them even with the best of intentions. We can with out meaning too, project are fears and negative thinking on to them. When we slip into pushing them in this direction or that it is worth asking; is this something I want or is it a genuine opening up of opportunity? It is one thing to lay exploration at there feet it altogether another thing give them your goal. Another key sign of this is the use of guilt. You make me a happy or unhappy as parent if you do this or that. By linking the behaviour of your children to how you preserve yourself as a parent creates a dependent state between you and your child and it also teaches them that this is how to get what you want in life.

No one has ever reached there true potential without wanting it themselves. That is a fact of life. If you want your child to reach there true potential then the best thing you can do is be on that journey yourself, for yourself.  They are far more likely to do what you do and not what you say they should do. So live your life the way you want then to turn out. Live your values and be guided by what matters to you. If you have double standards then donít be surprised if they have then too.


What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
 

Offline rosy

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #14 on: 07/10/2006 11:07:02 »
quote:
Perhaps I should sit him in front of the TV and watch that BBC program aimed at youngsters.

No, not that either.
Give him some paints and a sand bit and a box to play house in and let him help you bake cakes. Oh, and read him stories.
Sing the periodic table song to him if you like but please don't make the poor little blighter try to learn it... it's just a party trick!
 

Offline daveshorts

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #15 on: 07/10/2006 14:12:44 »
Here is something that may interest you on the subject of rote learning:
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sanjoy/benezet/three.html#1
It is a report from the 1930's about not teaching kids arithmetic formally until they were about 10 (grade 6 - possibly an american can translate), but doing lots of teaching of the concepts of number, estimation etc - as well as the kids being better at arthmetic by about 11 they also could answer real problems and understood what numbers meant.

Teaching kids things before their mind is developed enough to take it can be very counterproductive as it strongly discourages them.
 

Offline science_guy

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #16 on: 09/10/2006 16:27:30 »
quote:
As for learning my multiplication tables - I remember that time when, and there was a contest of wills between the school and myself on the issue, which the school only won very grudgingly. To this day, I am not sure that I gained anything by learning my times table. I have learned multiplication results that I have used regularly, and quickly forgotten those that I did not. Having an interest in computers, I quickly learned to deal with binary simply because it fitted in with my needs, and I understood what I was doing with it, but I could easier tell to the powers of two up unto the 16th power than I could my 7 times table.


Is there any way you could teach me binary for windows?

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I would engage you in a battle of wits, but it is against my moral code to attack the unarmed.
 

another_someone

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #17 on: 09/10/2006 18:34:47 »
quote:
Originally posted by science_guy
Is there any way you could teach me binary for windows?



Not sure what you mean by 'binary for windows'?

Binary is binary, it is no more for windows than it is for anything else.

If you are talking about understanding how to read core dumps, or understanding how binary numbers are stored in microprocessors, then those are applications for which binary is put to use (although there days more often read in higher level bases like octal or hexadecimal, but reflecting an underlying binary machine logic).

If you have any particular detail to discuss, let me know, and if you wish, you can email me privately.



George
« Last Edit: 09/10/2006 18:36:18 by another_someone »
 

Offline Mr Andrew

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #18 on: 10/10/2006 00:37:52 »
quote:
Originally posted by daveshorts

 Teaching kids things before their mind is developed enough to take it can be very counterproductive as it strongly discourages them.



Ah, it's so true....  Sadly it works the other way too--i.e., Not teaching kids enough things when their mind is more than ready for more is most assuredly counterproductive as it discourages all drive to learn and forces them, hopefully unsuccessfully (though this is rare), to accept that no matter what they do, life will always be a big bore because it's so easy.  They then go out into the real world and are totally unprepared for it because all of a sudden, everything is challenging and they've never been challenged before.  There are a few who can't be held back by the bonds of the politicaly correct, everyone's equal (equally stupid!!), American public school system.  They are the truly intelligent ones, the ones who would be just as knowlegdeable without an education as with one because they learn to learn on their own; they constantly challenge themselves to do better in life.  These are the kind of people our world needs--people who don't need guidance (for if everyone needs guidance, who will give it?), people who will lead our society forward.  Sadly, these people are few and far between, mostly due to the public school system.  There could be more, if only education was synonymous with learning we would be good.  Unfortunately, those who might excel to eventually lead us on, are drug back to the level of the slowest.  That's pretty bass ackwards if you know what I mean![:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!]

"His mind is the ultimate weapon!"-MacGyver television series
 

Offline daveshorts

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #19 on: 26/10/2006 09:37:18 »
I don't think that they were advocating stopping kids from learning arithmetic, just not forcing them to do it formally. I think it is more about teaching kids lotsof the sorts of things they are good at learning at each stage, different kids wil be in different places at different times.
 

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Re: Periodic Table - a challenge!
« Reply #19 on: 26/10/2006 09:37:18 »

 

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