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Author Topic: Why do you expect Science to know everything?  (Read 39267 times)

Offline Thebox

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #25 on: 20/04/2015 13:53:36 »
Thank you Colin, I really wish I had completed schooling, then I would explain easy my ideas that I can see but not translate into words correctly.

I think you can, but I'm sure you can see that others have put a lot of thought into these topics and can have a different viewpoint. You may have to accept that some ideas belong more to philosophy than physics. There are good questions in philosophy, you have asked some of them, but they are not physics.

Well I do not accept myself to be true, I understand philosophy is still science, some of my ideas are physics though, based on your physics, this is why they can not be wrong they are experimentally proven.

I have said before and I will it say it again, I am viewing your science in a different context, this is what your science is telling me.  I am not making it up has such, maybe I just need to slow down and not be so excitable.
 

Offline phyti39

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #26 on: 20/04/2015 19:29:28 »
Jasper #2
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That we should just have faith in whatever anyone is saying and not correct him, however illogical?

If you think it's important, then challenge their statement.

colin2B #7
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I accept that the earth is round, I cannot prove it or measure it, and if you asked me to I would not be able to prove otherwise except by quoting those who have studied the problem.

You could discover the same indicators as earlier observers. The mast of a tall ship was the last part seen as it departed, and the first part seen as it returned. The earth casts a circular shadow on the moon during an eclipse.

Quote
It is an arrogance and complacency that says "if I can't understand the answer, it must be wrong", but also an arrogance which says I do not need to study this in order to understand, it should be obvious to all who view it.

Sometimes but not always. Regarding a new product, a coworker once said "you can't make that". Knowing the person, he was a friendly quiet type and definitely not arrogant. His comment was based on past experience and ignorance of the machine capabilities. and he made a poor choice of words. What he really meant was "I don't know how to make that". We later produced the part, and changed his opinion.
 
No one can know everything, since we can't know what "everything" is!
Which raises a related question, how can you make a "Theory Of Everything" when you can't know when you have discovered all there is to discover?

Bill S #8
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I took it that Jasper was chiding those who seemed to expect science to know everything.

I interpreted it the same way, since to many, science is a religion, with their faith and trust placed in it to solve world problems.
_________________________________________________________________
Science is still philosophy but augmented with a system of measurement. Therefore science can only study things it can measure, i.e. its verification tool. That places intangible/spiritual qualities like love, charity, morals, etc. beyond its area of applicability.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #27 on: 20/04/2015 19:30:28 »


Thank you Colin, I really wish I had completed schooling, then I would explain easy my ideas that I can see but not translate into words correctly.
That would have been an excellent idea Mr. Box. Not only would you be familiar with current scientific jargon, you would also have had exposer to many facts that you obviously are not acquainted with presently.

I admire people that have an honest hunger to learn about the physical nature of their existence. And there are times when I observe this hunger in your personality. However,.................there are many more times when I see you accusing credible members here of not understanding your point of view, thereby insinuating their lack intelligence. What you fail to recognize Mr. Box is, in most cases, we do understand why you think the way you do. All we have to do is recall many of the same thoughts we had as youngsters, young people with great enthusiasm seeking out the dark recesses of our own imaginations.

If and when you do advance your education, remember these conversations you've had with the patient members of these hallowed halls. Hopefully, you won't treat your teachers and professors with the same indignation you seem to have for some of us.

I encourage you to get that education Mr. Box. With this learning tucked away within the crevices of your cerebral cortex, there might just be some hope for you yet?
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #28 on: 20/04/2015 21:55:43 »
Quote from: Ethos_
If and when you do advance your education, remember these conversations you've had with the patient members of these hallowed halls. Hopefully, you won't treat your teachers and professors with the same indignation you seem to have for some of us.
Here, here! An excellent point. I myself did my best with him but I'm short on patience with those who treat me with disrespect. In the real world it would me someone exactly like myself, i.e. with the same education and knowledge, who'd be teaching him. No teacher would put up with the way "the box" treated me in this forum.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #29 on: 20/04/2015 22:40:02 »
I wasn't quite able to grasp completely what you were trying to say and correct me if I'm wrong here, but... Are you saying (in a way) that whatever is conceivable by thinking, is a possibility? That we should just have faith in whatever anyone is saying and not correct him, however illogical?
'

No, I wasn't referring to correcting what one might find wrong, assuming it's done in a friendly manner naturally :) I was giving a argument stating that if we want logic to be the sole perpetrator of life, the universe and all, we better have a way to include such things as emotions, thoughts, etc etc. I think of thoughts, and self awareness, as emergences myself. But we still need a logic defining how they exist, and evolve into the way we feel and act.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #30 on: 20/04/2015 22:41:02 »
Except that the simplest answer is not always the right one.

We cannot observe space directly, but we can see that (on a cosmic scale) everything is moving away from everything else. An observer anywhere in the universe would look around themselves and claim that all of the distant galaxies are moving away from them (expanding universe, where the observer is at the center of expansion), and that the galaxies farthest away are moving fastest.

If it were just an issue of galaxies moving apart from one another you would see a progression like:

a...b.....c............d
a.....b.....c............d
a.......b.....c............d
a..........b.....c............d


But what we see is more like:
a...b.......c..............d
a.....b.........c................d
a.......b...........c..................d
a..........b.............c....................d

or more exaggerated:

a..b....c......d
a....b........c............d
a........b................c........................d
a................b................................c................................................d

Which indicates that the rate that objects move apart from one-another depends on how far away they are already. The easiest way to think about this is that the space between them is growing.

This also explains how objects can be moving apart from one-another faster than the speed of light. Since it is impossible (as far as we know) to accelerate an object to a speed greater than the speed of light, but not necessarily impossible (though we don't know how) for the space itself between objects to increase at any rate, making it appear as if the objects themselves are moving.

There are other explanations of these observations, but expanding space is the current favorite among most physicists and cosmologists.

I am content for the moment saying that the observations and theory are consistent, but I do wonder if there is a better explanation. Luckily there are people smarter than both of us working on it right now!

Ahh Chiral, a lovely example.
=

then again, just to be devious (deviant?), isn't then your explanation of the above phenomena the simplest explanation of that fact?
« Last Edit: 20/04/2015 22:44:23 by yor_on »
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #31 on: 21/04/2015 00:00:58 »
colin2B #7
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I accept that the earth is round, I cannot prove it or measure it, and if you asked me to I would not be able to prove otherwise except by quoting those who have studied the problem.

You could discover the same indicators as earlier observers. The mast of a tall ship was the last part seen as it departed, and the first part seen as it returned. The earth casts a circular shadow on the moon during an eclipse.
Sorry, but that sort of argument doesn't work with the people Jasper is talking about. They fix on their ideas beyond all logic.
Masts of ships? Optical illusion caused by light refraction.
Shadow on moon? Well of course the earth is a flat disc so you are bound to get a circular shadow.
Then the accusation of complacent thinking and reliance on book learning!
Have you ever met any flat earthers? They believe in an alternative to the scientific method where sensory observations are the only reliable form of information about the world. Sound familiar?
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #32 on: 21/04/2015 00:23:50 »

Then the accusation of complacent thinking and reliance on book learning!
Have you ever met any flat earthers? They believe in an alternative to the scientific method where sensory observations are the only reliable form of information about the world. Sound familiar?
Now that you mention it, I can think of two chaps that those shoes fit rather nicely!
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #33 on: 21/04/2015 00:31:18 »
anyone thinks science will remember you for a long time? why? why not?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #34 on: 21/04/2015 01:21:05 »
nah, physics is just good fun Jccc. Life is a mystery, and very little make sense when you look back at it, mostly circumstances to it I would say. Which means that you are perfectly correct in that we all are equal.
=

better add that physics is one of the few things actually making sense to me :)
« Last Edit: 21/04/2015 01:22:47 by yor_on »
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #35 on: 21/04/2015 04:55:49 »
nah, physics is just good fun Jccc. Life is a mystery, and very little make sense when you look back at it, mostly circumstances to it I would say. Which means that you are perfectly correct in that we all are equal.
=

better add that physics is one of the few things actually making sense to me :)

such as electron fires 33333333333333.3 photons per second?

equal? how many times you been banned?
« Last Edit: 21/04/2015 05:01:08 by jccc »
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #36 on: 21/04/2015 11:02:39 »
Not sure I've been banned? Could have happened in the dark ages though :) But I've gotten some warnings if that helps? Where did you get that number from btw? We use measurements in time, and we define it arbitrarily more or less, fitting the planet we live on. Does it matter that you get that number statistically per second? You can get another where there is '4 photons' per whatever time you like to use, be it seconds or?
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #37 on: 21/04/2015 12:41:09 »
Not sure I've been banned? Could have happened in the dark ages though :) But I've gotten some warnings if that helps? Where did you get that number from btw? We use measurements in time, and we define it arbitrarily more or less, fitting the planet we live on. Does it matter that you get that number statistically per second? You can get another where there is '4 photons' per whatever time you like to use, be it seconds or?

i was partially kidding. i only agree 1 thing you said, life is a misery loving science.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #38 on: 22/04/2015 03:15:58 »
Except that the simplest answer is not always the right one.

We cannot observe space directly, but we can see that (on a cosmic scale) everything is moving away from everything else. An observer anywhere in the universe would look around themselves and claim that all of the distant galaxies are moving away from them (expanding universe, where the observer is at the center of expansion), and that the galaxies farthest away are moving fastest.

If it were just an issue of galaxies moving apart from one another you would see a progression like:

a...b.....c............d
a.....b.....c............d
a.......b.....c............d
a..........b.....c............d


But what we see is more like:
a...b.......c..............d
a.....b.........c................d
a.......b...........c..................d
a..........b.............c....................d

or more exaggerated:

a..b....c......d
a....b........c............d
a........b................c........................d
a................b................................c................................................d

Which indicates that the rate that objects move apart from one-another depends on how far away they are already. The easiest way to think about this is that the space between them is growing.

This also explains how objects can be moving apart from one-another faster than the speed of light. Since it is impossible (as far as we know) to accelerate an object to a speed greater than the speed of light, but not necessarily impossible (though we don't know how) for the space itself between objects to increase at any rate, making it appear as if the objects themselves are moving.

There are other explanations of these observations, but expanding space is the current favorite among most physicists and cosmologists.

I am content for the moment saying that the observations and theory are consistent, but I do wonder if there is a better explanation. Luckily there are people smarter than both of us working on it right now!

seems logically conflict.

from a point look at d, d point seems moving away fastest, from d point look at a, seems a moving away fastest. if i didn't mistake the theory.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #39 on: 22/04/2015 06:08:30 »
my theory to explain the expending space is there is no expansion at all.

to any observer, local star/gravitational field will accelerate incoming lights from all directions.

the closer star lights will blueshift the most due to stronger gravity, therefore, the farther away stars look like the more redshift. just like what we observed.

thoughts?
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #40 on: 22/04/2015 07:04:17 »
if this theory has merit, isn't big bang theory doubtful?

you know much better, how do you think?
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #41 on: 22/04/2015 08:31:45 »
I feel as if this post I'm about to make is right now very important
Jasper
This is your thread, are you ok with where it's going?
Slightly off topic, but if you might feel the examples are adding to the discussion.
How do others feel? Still a useful thread?
 

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #42 on: 22/04/2015 10:00:14 »
Yes, Colin... You're right! I should probably delete it because I have probably completed my objective here. However unsuccessful it went. Right?
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #43 on: 22/04/2015 10:09:17 »
Yes, Colin... You're right! I should probably delete it because I have probably completed my objective here. However unsuccessful it went. Right?
I think there was some useful discussion and ideas, it seemed quite successful to me. I don't think you need to delete it, but you could request that spin off topics are moved elsewhere in case others want to add anything.

Strangely, I have just been in some quite rational threads with Mr Box. Surreal feeling. Might not last, but it was good while it did? :)
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #44 on: 22/04/2015 22:40:21 »
i looked all over

my quantum wine is gone

empty bottle lays on the ground

2 drunk monks sleep by the pond


 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #45 on: 22/04/2015 22:53:30 »
Yes, Colin... You're right! I should probably delete it because I have probably completed my objective here. However unsuccessful it went. Right?
It was successful if you got out of it what you wanted to. For me it wasn't because you never answered the question that I asked you, i.e. in post #3 I asked you the following question:
Quote
I'm curious where you ever got this idea from? It's most certainly wrong. Not one scientist today believes that we can know everything through the methods of science. For example; nothing about science will answer most questions that philosophers pose. It can't address most parts of religion either. The goal of science is to address questions about nature.
Did you ignore me intentionally? If so then why, may I ask?
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #46 on: 23/04/2015 01:58:34 »
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #47 on: 23/04/2015 04:55:01 »
Good Morning!

the only reason they came up with dark matter is because matter should be equally distributed if the big bang happened, and because normal gravity does not have the reach that our galactic cores have apparently.

plasma has a massive electromagnetic field that is much stronger than gravity. the space between our planets is massive, even with the sun being 3 million X the size of earth, it is hard to imagine that it would have the gravitational tug on objects like Pluto and further out.

we don't really know whats going on, but I think we can safely confirm that the big bang is a big dud that is simply an apologist ideology to support cosmic evolutionism, like chemical evolution.

matter is not equally distributed, giant explosions do not create dimensions and physics, and certainly not atomic structures. they are not something that simply pops out of nothingness, they come from something as all things do.

agree?
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #48 on: 23/04/2015 05:06:58 »
Quote from: jccc
the only reason they came up with dark matter is because matter should be equally distributed if the big bang happened, and because normal gravity does not have the reach that our galactic cores have apparently.
Totally wrong.

Quote from: jccc
plasma has a massive electromagnetic field that is much stronger than gravity.
Also totally wrong.

Quote from: jccc
the space between our planets is massive, even with the sun being 3 million X the size of earth,
Once again, totally wrong. The Sun weighs only about 333,000 times as much as Earth. That's FAR from being 3 million times the size (since size is approximately proportional to mass).

Quote from: jccc
we don't really know whats going on, ...
Correction. YOU don't really know what's going on.

Quote from: jccc
but I think we can safely confirm that the big bang is a big dud ..
Bogus claim presented, as always, with nothing to back it up.

Quote from: jccc
matter is not equally distributed, giant explosions do not create dimensions and physics, and certainly not atomic structures. they are not something that simply pops out of nothingness, they come from something as all things do.
Again, a claim made with nothing to support it. Typically jccc does this when he doesn't know the physics, which is nearly all of the time.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #49 on: 23/04/2015 05:33:27 »
Thanks Pete,

science is happy to be proven wrong. the pursuit of knowledge through fact finding, and disproving, is the only way to reach truth.

assuming, or just believing, is the realm of the fool.
 

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Re: Why do you expect Science to know everything?
« Reply #49 on: 23/04/2015 05:33:27 »

 

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