# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Does heat repel heat?  (Read 11604 times)

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 47 times
##### Does heat repel heat?
« on: 23/04/2015 00:17:10 »
I have searched google and found no answer, does heat repel heat?

if the answer is yes, does the cold attract heat?

#### chiralSPO

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1879
• Thanked: 145 times
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #1 on: 23/04/2015 02:03:19 »
Heat and cold are not substances or things. As such they cannot be attracted or repelled.

Temperature can be thought of in many different ways, but I think the easiest to grasp is thinking of it as indicative of the random kinetic energy of the atoms and molecules of whatever you are measuring the temperature of. The atoms in hot substances are moving much more than the atoms in cold substances. When I say random, I mean that if you're measuring the temperature of a glass of water, it doesn't matter how fast the glass is going--if all of the atoms are moving together, that kinetic energy doesn't count. It's the atoms that are jiggling and bouncing around in all different *random* ways.

So heat can't repeal heat, but heat does tend to spread. If two objects that are different temperatures are brought into contact (unless there is something funny going on, like a chemical reaction) the warmer one will cool down and the colder one will heat up until they are the same temperature.

#### PmbPhy

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2771
• Thanked: 38 times
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #2 on: 23/04/2015 02:27:51 »
Quote from: Thebox
I have searched google and found no answer, does heat repel heat?
It's such a shame that you refuse to take our advice and learn physics. Had you done so then you'd know that heat is thermal energy in motion. You appear to be confusing heat with thermal energy. And as a result they neither attract nor repel (since they aren't "things").

#### ~CB

• Guest
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #3 on: 23/04/2015 08:31:31 »

#### ~CB

• Guest
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #4 on: 23/04/2015 09:35:39 »
Box, you are lucky to be getting continuous chiding just for the sake of your own education/good. Even more lucky since that man, Mr. Peter, who's trying to teach you something... is a world class physicist! Granted he wasn't quite able to make it to Wikipedia (Be famous) due to his disk disease (And I respect him still trying to share his knowledge with us while learning more of his passion... Physics). But, the kind of knowledge he has, you should just try your best to get some of it from him while you can.
Box, you should definitely  read the thread I posted the link of in my previous post i.e.,
And also read some of Mr. Peter's work, here 'http://home.comcast.net/~peter.m.brown/' it's truly brilliant!
Might it be only after reading his work will you respect him and stop trying to argue with him;
Even I just started learning QM and I have already made some theories but I have made it a rule that till the time I won't properly understand all aspects, I won't try to validate my theories... or try to prove something that I have learnt, wrong. Because, I know it's the lack of knowledge that is causing the need for me to create theories. When, if, I complete my knowledge I will understand that most of the things I thought were unexplained or needed a new theory of, already had a better explanation. Although, even if that's not the case... even If I did have a better theory. I will still wait till I complete my understanding of QM and then present it;

#### Colin2B

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1921
• Thanked: 125 times
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #5 on: 23/04/2015 09:48:31 »
Might it be only after reading his work will you respect him and stop trying to argue with him;
Mmm, well a number of us do argue with him and as long as we make sense he enjoys it.
When you don't get respect is when you argue a point without knowing the subject and just assuming everyone else has got it wrong.

I've been learning science for a long time and I'm still learning, often modifying what I thought I knew.
Long may it continue.

#### ~CB

• Guest
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #6 on: 23/04/2015 09:56:49 »
Mmm, well a number of us do argue with him and as long as we make sense he enjoys it.

Well Mr. Colin (...or would you prefer Dr.?), for one to argue he must have the knowledge to keep up to the argument. I don't believe the box is knowledgeable enough to yet argue with any of you.
By the way, I'm 17 and less knowledgeable than any of you as of this moment. Hence, I use Mr. as a prefix to mostly everyone's name on here. Hope it didn't offend you.

#### PmbPhy

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2771
• Thanked: 38 times
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #7 on: 23/04/2015 10:13:17 »
Quote from: Jasper Hayden
Granted he wasn't quite able to make it to Wikipedia (Be famous) ...
I don't understand what you mean by this, Please explain. You may not be aware of it but I created a company to work physics out of. It's called New England Physics and is online at http://www.newenglandphysics.org/  During my convalescence I still worked in physics, I just didn't get paid for it. I created a website to help people understand physics. Each page was created to help someone understand something. I arranged the pages to make a tutorial out of them. I'll be importing that from my old site at:
http://home.comcast.net/~peter.m.brown/ to the new site and making it better in the process. It's a very long and drawn out process and will take many years to accomplish. Right now I'm in the process of reviewing all of my undergraduate courses by reading my undergraduate texts cover to cover and working all of the problems. Then I'll go to the graduate course work that I did to review that too. Then I'm going to learn new subjects like particle physics, quantum field theory and nuclear physics (full blown graduate course text). This will help me be a very good tutor for hire. I'm tutoring one person right now. So far he loves it.

Quote from: Jasper Hayden
...due to his disk disease...
I actually became disabled when I contracted Leukemia. It took three years to win that battle. When I tried to go back to work I went on a job interview and herniated a disk from the walking. Sheeesh!

Quote from: Jasper Hayden
(And I respect him still trying to share his knowledge with us while learning more of his passion... Physics). But, the kind of knowledge he has, you should just try your best to get some of it from him while you can.
Thank you very much. That's a very kind thing of you to say!

Quote from: Jasper Hayden
And also read some of Mr. Peter's work, here 'http://home.comcast.net/~peter.m.brown/' it's truly brilliant!
Thanks again. How did you come to learn of that website?

Quote from: Jasper Hayden
Might it be only after reading his work will you respect him and stop trying to argue with him;
Even I just started learning QM and I have already made some theories but I have made it a rule that till the time I won't properly understand all aspects, I won't try to validate my theories... or try to prove something that I have learnt, wrong. Because, I know it's the lack of knowledge that is causing the need for me to create theories. When, if, I complete my knowledge I will understand that most of the things I thought were unexplained or needed a new theory of, already had a better explanation. Although, even if that's not the case... even If I did have a better theory. I will still wait till I complete my understanding of QM and then present it;
That's a very wise outlook. I thought I had a good idea and studied a particular problem for about 10 years. It was only after a decade did I learn how wrong I was. Oh! What a blunder!

I suggest that before you do that you first learn the terminology of physics/science. For example: look up the difference between an hypothesis, a law/axiom and a theory. Best to learn how to use these terms correctly.

#### PmbPhy

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2771
• Thanked: 38 times
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #8 on: 23/04/2015 10:14:46 »
Quote from: Colin2B
Mmm, well a number of us do argue with him and as long as we make sense he enjoys it.
That's because you actually know what you're talking about. :)

#### Colin2B

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1921
• Thanked: 125 times
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #9 on: 23/04/2015 10:15:27 »
Mmm, well a number of us do argue with him and as long as we make sense he enjoys it.

Well Mr. Colin (...or would you prefer Dr.?), for one to argue he must have the knowledge to keep up to the argument. I don't believe the box is knowledgeable enough to yet argue with any of you.
By the way, I'm 17 and less knowledgeable than any of you as of this moment. Hence, I use Mr. as a prefix to mostly everyone's name on here. Hope it didn't offend you.

Not at all Mr Jasper, I've been called worse things in my life. By the way Dr is not one of them, I wouldn't use a false title. Also, by the way, I'm not a scientist.

When I was 17 someone said "you can learn something from anyone, no matter who they are or what their education"
I have used that as a guiding principle, many years have passed and it has served me well. Even Mr Box can teach me things.
Often the simplest of questions can make us reexamine what we really know, the very simplest are even more challenging!

Don't believe you can't teach people anything, no matter what your age, I've learnt things from my 3 yr old granddaughter. Just treat everything as a learning experience.

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 47 times
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #10 on: 23/04/2015 10:30:08 »
Thank you for the replies, it is only assumption that I am not learning, I put my question in brief, members have just explained what heat is without me asking the question to any readers who not understand that heat is a product of action and reaction.

I know what heat is, I never asked what heat was.

I asked does heat repel heat?

does cold attract heat?

I got a part answer about thermodynamics.

Regardless that heat is a product waste as such, does heat repel heat?  because metal expands, I presume heat does repel heat, although the technical conclusion in the end will change from heat to something else, heat a starting premise for debate.

#### ~CB

• Guest
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #11 on: 23/04/2015 10:32:15 »
Quote from: Jasper Hayden
Granted he wasn't quite able to make it to Wikipedia (Be famous) ...
I don't understand what you mean by this, Please explain. You may not be aware of it but I created a company to work physics out of. It's called New England Physics and is online at http://www.newenglandphysics.org/  During my convalescence I still worked in physics, I just didn't get paid for it. I created a website to help people understand physics. Each page was created to help someone understand something. I arranged the pages to make a tutorial out of them. I'll be importing that from my old site at:
http://home.comcast.net/~peter.m.brown/ to the new site and making it better in the process. It's a very long and drawn out process and will take many years to accomplish. Right now I'm in the process of reviewing all of my undergraduate courses by reading my undergraduate texts cover to cover and working all of the problems. Then I'll go to the graduate course work that I did to review that too. Then I'm going to learn new subjects like particle physics, quantum field theory and nuclear physics (full blown graduate course text). This will help me be a very good tutor for hire. I'm tutoring one person right now. So far he loves it.
Oh, I was't quite aware of that and would like to apologize for my previous claim;
Oh I so wish I could have been the one to learn from you, unfortunately I live too far away;
I suggest that before you do that you first learn the terminology of physics/science. For example: look up the difference between an hypothesis, a law/axiom and a theory. Best to learn how to use these terms correctly.
Haha! Sorry  I wasn't aware of the difference. Thanks for the correction!

Mmm, well a number of us do argue with him and as long as we make sense he enjoys it.

Well Mr. Colin (...or would you prefer Dr.?), for one to argue he must have the knowledge to keep up to the argument. I don't believe the box is knowledgeable enough to yet argue with any of you.
By the way, I'm 17 and less knowledgeable than any of you as of this moment. Hence, I use Mr. as a prefix to mostly everyone's name on here. Hope it didn't offend you.

Not at all Mr Jasper, I've been called worse things in my life. By the way Dr is not one of them, I wouldn't use a false title. Also, by the way, I'm not a scientist.

When I was 17 someone said "you can learn something from anyone, no matter who they are or what their education"
I have used that as a guiding principle, many years have passed and it has served me well. Even Mr Box can teach me things.
Often the simplest of questions can make us reexamine what we really know, the very simplest are even more challenging!

Don't believe you can't teach people anything, no matter what your age, I've learnt things from my 3 yr old granddaughter. Just treat everything as a learning experience.

Awww... You got offended didn't you? I'm sorry, I'll call you Colin from now on, how about that? By the way that's a very wise thing to say! I have often learnt things from people I never quite expected from whom I could learn anything from. It's just that I'm still a kid and I have this ego to uphold which won't let me learn stuff from people I believe to have less knowledge than me.
« Last Edit: 23/04/2015 10:34:55 by Jasper Hayden »

#### alancalverd

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 4726
• Thanked: 155 times
• life is too short to drink instant coffee
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #12 on: 23/04/2015 10:40:57 »

I asked does heat repel heat?

No

Quote
does cold attract heat?

No.

Satisfied?

#### PmbPhy

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2771
• Thanked: 38 times
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #13 on: 23/04/2015 10:48:19 »
Quote from: Jasper Hayden
Oh, I was't quite aware of that and would like to apologize for my previous claim;
No apologies necessary. You simply didn't know.

Quote from: Jasper Hayden
Oh I so wish I could have been the one to learn from you, unfortunately I live too far away;
The purpose of my company is to do online tutoring so that I can tutor anybody anywhere in the world. However it's very expensive and as such it may not be right for you.

Quote from: Jasper Hayden
Haha! Sorry  I wasn't aware of the difference. Thanks for the correction!
You're welcome.

Quote from: Jasper Hayden
Awww... You got offended didn't you?
No. He didn't get offended. He was simply stating a fact.

#### ~CB

• Guest
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #14 on: 23/04/2015 10:50:18 »
How expensive exactly?

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 47 times
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #15 on: 23/04/2015 10:58:38 »

I asked does heat repel heat?

No

Quote
does cold attract heat?

No.

Satisfied?

yes if thats the answer

so hot air will just merge with hot air?

added - if heat is not a thing, can it be said that heat is a state of matter?
« Last Edit: 23/04/2015 11:13:38 by Thebox »

#### Colin2B

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1921
• Thanked: 125 times
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #16 on: 23/04/2015 11:32:26 »

Awww... You got offended didn't you? I'm sorry, I'll call you Colin from now on, how about that? By the way that's a very wise thing to say! I have often learnt things from people I never quite expected from whom I could learn anything from. It's just that I'm still a kid and I have this ego to uphold which won't let me learn stuff from people I believe to have less knowledge than me.
No, not offended at all. You do me the honour of an honourific, I return the honour.

The person who said that was the workshop foreman in the first job I had, very wise. Someone else in the same workshop said, never be afraid to say you don't know, also very wise.

I asked does heat repel heat?

No

Quote
does cold attract heat?

No.

Satisfied?

yes if thats the answer

so hot air will just merge with hot air?

added - if heat is not a thing, can it be said that heat is a state of matter?

Sorry Mr Box, we are going off topic.
I can see why you might think that heat repels. Two objects of same temperature, no heat transfer. But it's not repulsion. Think more of 2tanks of water joined by a pipe. If the water is at the same level, it won't flow, but lift one tank to a higher level it will until both are at the same level.
Heat is like the water, temperature is like the height.

Hot air will not merge with hot air unless a wind blows them together. Although if you coloured each mass of air differently you would see some mixing because all the molecules are in a constant state of motion, the hotter, the more motion - see Brownian motion.

Heat is not a state of matter, that term is reserved for solid, liquid, gas, plasma ?etc?
Heat is more of an action, a transfer of energy, like the water between the tanks, like a ball rolling down a hill is a transfer of potential to kinetic energy. I'm sure someone has a better way of saying this as I'm just talking off top of head.
« Last Edit: 23/04/2015 11:34:26 by Colin2B »

#### PmbPhy

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2771
• Thanked: 38 times
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #17 on: 23/04/2015 11:39:36 »
Quote from: Jasper Hayden
How expensive exactly?
\$50 (US Dollars) per hour

#### PmbPhy

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2771
• Thanked: 38 times
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #18 on: 23/04/2015 11:40:25 »
Quote from: Thebox
added - if heat is not a thing, can it be said that heat is a state of matter?
No.

#### ~CB

• Guest
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #19 on: 23/04/2015 12:06:53 »
Quote from: Jasper Hayden
How expensive exactly?
\$50 (US Dollars) per hour
WHAT?!? It really is expensive, although surely it must be worth it;
Are you sure people will pay this amount to learn physics? I might be wrong but usually people learn things which offer good job placements and I don't believe Science offers good job placements. I mean you could probably learn Website development and get better pay. Although like I just said, I'm not sure... maybe there are descent paying jobs in Science as well, which I'm not aware of.

#### PmbPhy

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2771
• Thanked: 38 times
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #20 on: 23/04/2015 12:22:44 »
Quote from: Jasper Hayden
WHAT?!? It really is expensive, although surely it must be worth it;
That's actually cheap. Someone with my background typically gets \$75 per hour. I will someday when I'm not as rusty as I am.

Quote from: Jasper Hayden
Are you sure people will pay this amount to learn physics?
All you have to do is search online for physics tutors and see what the going rates are and you'll see that they rage from a bottom rate of \$30 per hour to \$75 per hour.

Quote from: Jasper Hayden
I might be wrong but usually people learn things which offer good job placements and I don't believe Science offers good job placements.
Where on Earth did you ever get an idea like that?? Do you know that a medical physicist gets up to \$200,000 per year?

Quote from: Jasper Hayden
I mean you could probably learn Website development and get better pay.
Why would I want to do that? Is that what you think physicists do?

Quote from: Jasper Hayden
Although like I just said, I'm not sure... maybe there are descent paying jobs in Science as well, which I'm not aware of.
There are tons of jobs in science in all fields, especially physics. Science is the basis for almost every thing we do in a particular day.
Read this - https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/hr/postings/

Note the salary range. Posting #16-18 pays over \$150,000 per year. Right out of college in 1990 I started at \$30,000 per year. That was a lot of money back then. My last job at Polaroid I was making about \$90,000 per year.

I'm extremely surprised to hear that you're not aware of the great paying jobs out there for physicists. It's so sad to hear that's what people think.

#### ~CB

• Guest
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #21 on: 23/04/2015 13:23:44 »
Quote from: Jasper Hayden
I might be wrong but usually people learn things which offer good job placements and I don't believe Science offers good job placements.
Where on Earth did you ever get an idea like that?? Do you know that a medical physicist gets up to \$200,000 per year?

Quote from: Jasper Hayden
I mean you could probably learn Website development and get better pay.
Why would I want to do that? Is that what you think physicists do?

Quote from: Jasper Hayden
Although like I just said, I'm not sure... maybe there are descent paying jobs in Science as well, which I'm not aware of.
There are tons of jobs in science in all fields, especially physics. Science is the basis for almost every thing we do in a particular day.
Read this - https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/hr/postings/

Note the salary range. Posting #16-18 pays over \$150,000 per year. Right out of college in 1990 I started at \$30,000 per year. That was a lot of money back then. My last job at Polaroid I was making about \$90,000 per year.

I'm extremely surprised to hear that you're not aware of the great paying jobs out there for physicists. It's so sad to hear that's what people think.

No, I never said that's what physisct do. All I'm saying is, is that people (With a typical mindset who is not really passionate about Science) will think strategically and rather pay less to learn website development which pays way better.
"Average Total Compensation: \$210,865 (ranging from \$80K to \$630K)

Average Salary: \$149,740 (ranging from \$80K to \$222K)

Average Cash Bonus: \$32,008 (ranging from  \$25 to \$80K)

Average Stock Bonus: \$49,315 (ranging from \$50 to \$300K)"
...And It's way easier to learn website development.
So that's the reason I was quite surprised to hear that people do pay 30-75\$ an hour to learn physics;
Maybe there are more people, passionate about Science than I expected;
P.S I did not know a medical physicist get's up to 200,000\$, that's quite impressive;

#### ~CB

• Guest
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #22 on: 23/04/2015 13:26:29 »
Sometimes I feel 'TheBox' really is 'Jccc'. Wonder if that's really the case.

#### PmbPhy

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2771
• Thanked: 38 times
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #23 on: 23/04/2015 15:56:18 »
Quote from: Jasper Hayden
No, I never said that's what physisct do. All I'm saying is, is that people (With a typical mindset who is not really passionate about Science) will think strategically and rather pay less to learn website development which pays way better.
I'm still lost as to why you raised the subject of Web Development.

#### evan_au

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 4130
• Thanked: 249 times
##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #24 on: 23/04/2015 19:30:59 »
Quote from: TheBox
because metal expands, I presume heat does repel heat
When studying the behavior of gases under different conditions around 1800, it was discovered that the volume of a gas is proportional to the temperature of the gas (all other things being equal).

So as the temperature rises, the gas molecules will get further apart.

As the temperature rises, the molecules move more rapidly, and apply a greater pressure to the walls of the vessel, increasing the volume.

A physicist would talk about:
• The molecules of the gas getting further apart
• ...As the temperature increased
• They would not talk about the temperature or heat of an atom, because these are properties of a group of particles.
• They would not usually talk about the heat of a gas increasing, but for a given type and quantity of gas, there is a relationship between temperature and heat (if you avoid state transitions like boiling water into steam).
Solids and liquids also expand when you increase the temperature, but less dramatically than gases. In these cases, the molecules are almost in contact with each other; they jiggle more as temperature increases. As I understand it, the more vigorous jiggling is able to increase the distance between the molecules, but due to the incompressibility of atoms, they cannot get closer by the same amount. This results in an overall expansion of both solids and liquids.

So, in summary, increasing the the temperature does increase the heat and does cause matter to expand, but I would not say that "heat repels heat".

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: Does heat repel heat?
« Reply #24 on: 23/04/2015 19:30:59 »