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Author Topic: Questions on atomic structure theory  (Read 3103 times)

Offline jccc

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Questions on atomic structure theory
« on: 01/05/2015 04:30:35 »
i am not scientist, just a college dropped out. but i have reasonable doubts about present theory of atomic structure. be appreciate your opinion/answer. please don't quote wiki, just give straight logic/fact. nothing more or less. all i want is open minded discussing. thank you, and thank this great forum!

1. how could gold atoms able to form into 1 piece since every gold atom has negative charged electron cloud?

2. why can't we compress a gold ball any smaller since atom's electron cloud should be easily compressible?

3. we can see comets hit the sun, why can't we see electrons hit nucleus? even in the x-ray tube?






 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #1 on: 01/05/2015 07:16:14 »
1. You need to study the mechanism of metallic bonding. Since gold exists as a solid, you can't start by presuming it to be impossible, so you have to modify your concept of atomic structure (not mine!) to fit in with reality.

2. see above

3. because electrons are not comets and nuclei are not the sun. But anyway, they sometimes do. Look up "electron capture" - it's a known and observable radioactive decay mode.

The key to understanding quantum phenomena is not to look for classical or continuum analogies: for the most part, there aren't any. What matters is whether, if you add zillions of quantum phenomena together, you get something that looks like mesoscopic reality: and you do. 
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #2 on: 01/05/2015 07:54:11 »
Quote from: jccc
1. how could gold atoms able to form into 1 piece since every gold atom has negative charged electron cloud?
Because the outer shell of electrons in gold atoms dissociate from their parent atom and are free to travel throughout the metal lattice.

Quote from: jccc
2. why can't we compress a gold ball any smaller since atom's electron cloud should be easily compressible?
Electrons, being fermions, cannot occupy the same quantum state as other electrons, so electrons have to "stack" within an atom. When you attempt to do that the atom resists. Read more about this at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle

Quote from: jccc
3. we can see comets hit the sun, why can't we see electrons hit nucleus? even in the x-ray tube?
We can't see comets hit the sun. They'd melt long before they get to the surface. We can see comets because we can see the light from the sun reflecting off its surface.

The same can't be said for atoms. We can't see photons reflecting off of individual electrons inside the atom. What we see is photons interacting with that atom as whole and not with its individual electrons.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #3 on: 01/05/2015 15:14:39 »
proton is like magnet, electron is like iron powder.

iron powder never cloud around magnet, they stick to the poles.

thank you both, but i am not convinced at all.

please save such answers.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #4 on: 01/05/2015 16:18:07 »
Therefore not "like" at all.

Since you prefer logic to observation, try this:

A cat is a mammal, like a dog.

An elephant is a mammal, like a rabbit.

Therefore cats can pick buns up with their noses, and kill elephants.
« Last Edit: 01/05/2015 16:19:44 by alancalverd »
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #5 on: 02/05/2015 09:14:58 »
Quote from: jccc
thank you both, but i am not convinced at all.
So what? I sincerely hope that you don't think that we care whether you're convinced about anything at all? It's a well-known fact here that you're both unable to learn and unwilling to learn physics and that you have no idea how to both construct and understand a logical argument. For that reason nobody here has any expectation that you'd be convinced of any logically correct argument and/or fact in physics.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #6 on: 02/05/2015 09:43:57 »
i am not scientist, just a college dropped out. but i have reasonable doubts about present theory of atomic structure. be appreciate your opinion/answer. please don't quote wiki, just give straight logic/fact. nothing more or less. all i want is open minded discussing. thank you, and thank this great forum!

1. how could gold atoms able to form into 1 piece since every gold atom has negative charged electron cloud?

2. why can't we compress a gold ball any smaller since atom's electron cloud should be easily compressible?

3. we can see comets hit the sun, why can't we see electrons hit nucleus? even in the x-ray tube?

I have no idea about your questions but I am in total agreement  I believe science is illusionary to atomic structure.  I think light is the cause of gravity but not a gravity wav, I think protons become charged and produce an equal and opposing wave to light  science has not convinced myself either.  The logic is flawed and certainly is contrariness  to physical process.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #7 on: 14/05/2015 18:52:33 »
obit is 2d circle, that's what we see in nature.

atoms are 3d, compare atom with solar system is not correct.

hydrogen atom has 1 proton and 1 electron, if electron is circling/orbiting, hydrogen atom should be flat like a disk. that's not the case.

why doesn't proton cause electron crash into it? isn't the electrostatic force is 10^39 times stronger than gravity?

simple logic and fact, yet science says differ.

do you really think electrons are orbiting/circling/clouding around nucleus?
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #8 on: 15/05/2015 00:22:39 »

do you really think electrons are orbiting/circling/clouding around nucleus?

No scientist does. And who cares what anyone else thinks about a scientific matter?
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #9 on: 15/05/2015 05:31:18 »

do you really think electrons are orbiting/circling/clouding around nucleus?

No scientist does. And who cares what anyone else thinks about a scientific matter?

before you become famous scientist, already a Global Moderator?

how scientist think about atoms? if they don't think electron are circling? isn't all the wiki pics show electrons are circling? what is the truth about atomic structure?
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #10 on: 15/05/2015 07:47:22 »
how scientist think about atoms? if they don't think electron are circling? isn't all the wiki pics show electrons are circling? what is the truth about atomic structure?

Most textbooks and wiki are only a top level explanation, they can't cover all the detail. Neither can a forum like this write a physics course for you, it's all top level.

Science uses a lot of explanatory and mathematical models to describe and predict what is happening. Some reflect what is physically happening others don't. For example I use a mathematical model to predict the response of a musical instrument to various frequency inputs, It's called a 4DOF (degrees of freedom) model and consists of a collection of weight, springs and pistons. It works to the degree of accuracy I need, but I would never believe that inside a guitar is a collection of metal springs etc.

 

Offline jccc

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #11 on: 15/05/2015 07:59:56 »
i was major in physics. too much word puzzles.

ever doubt any theories? still think light is photon emitted by electron?

still think electrons are orbiting?

 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #12 on: 15/05/2015 09:07:42 »
ever doubt any theories? still think light is photon emitted by electron?
I believe that when an electron in an atom is accelerated light is produced, which can be described as a wave or a photon.

still think electrons are orbiting?
That depends what you mean by orbiting. Your idea of what an orbit is is very different to mine and as you are happy with your idea and I know I won't convince you otherwise, I'm not going to try.
« Last Edit: 15/05/2015 09:39:43 by Colin2B »
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #13 on: 15/05/2015 12:34:37 »
Quote from: jccc
i was major in physics.
That could mean many things such as you changed after a week or you had a major in physics in high school

Quote from: jccc
too much word puzzles.
That's odd because there're aren't any puzzles in physics.

Quote from: jccc
ever doubt any theories?
We've lost count of how many times you posed questions like this. We've answered them countless times and have grown tired of repeating ourselves. Since you keep asking its clearly not getting through to you so I can't justify continuing to respond to that nonsense ever again. Do you really think that we're going to keep on going over the same issues forever? Hint: NO!!!!
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #14 on: 15/05/2015 12:39:05 »
Quote from: Colin2B
I believe that when an electron in an atom is accelerated light is produced, which can be described as a wave or a photon.
That's incorrect. That's a classical way of thinking about an atom and the classical model is flawed. If it was true then an atom would constantly radiate energy until the electrons collapsed into the nucleus. The atom would then cease to exist as an atom. Since we know this doesn't happen the model of the atom had to be changed. That's how quantum mechanics came to be.

In quantum mechanics one cannot think of a particle as moving on a classical trajectory. That means that we can't think of an electron as moving in any sense if the term.
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #15 on: 15/05/2015 14:35:37 »

That's incorrect. That's a classical way of thinking about an atom and the classical model is flawed. ........
In quantum mechanics one cannot think of a particle as moving on a classical trajectory. That means that we can't think of an electron as moving in any sense if the term.
I think we mean the same thing as I don't think of the electron as being moved in any classical sense. I was trying to avoid using 'atom energy levels', as I know what jcccs response to that always is. My choice of words didn't work, I should stick to calling things what they are rather than trying to accommodate other people's sensitivities.

jccc that reminds me. You are always drawing parallels between big size physics and small size. Doesn't work. On earth surface we are used to picking up a 10lb weight with a lift force of 10lb or greater, any value 10.1, 11.778, etc. at atomic levels it becomes obvious that you can only give energy out in chunks, quanta, not as a continuous variable. Similarly analogies like electrons whizzing round like planets doesn't work, nor does fixed in a 'jelly', nor does crashing down to hit the nucleus.
Think little.
« Last Edit: 15/05/2015 14:45:22 by Colin2B »
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #16 on: 16/05/2015 21:54:17 »

That's incorrect. That's a classical way of thinking about an atom and the classical model is flawed. ........
In quantum mechanics one cannot think of a particle as moving on a classical trajectory. That means that we can't think of an electron as moving in any sense if the term.
I think we mean the same thing as I don't think of the electron as being moved in any classical sense. I was trying to avoid using 'atom energy levels', as I know what jcccs response to that always is. My choice of words didn't work, I should stick to calling things what they are rather than trying to accommodate other people's sensitivities.

jccc that reminds me. You are always drawing parallels between big size physics and small size. Doesn't work. On earth surface we are used to picking up a 10lb weight with a lift force of 10lb or greater, any value 10.1, 11.778, etc. at atomic levels it becomes obvious that you can only give energy out in chunks, quanta, not as a continuous variable. Similarly analogies like electrons whizzing round like planets doesn't work, nor does fixed in a 'jelly', nor does crashing down to hit the nucleus.
Think little.

so want is it? in your clearest mind, how you think/believe a hydrogen atom is formed?

is the electron moving or not? is the hydrogen atom 2d or 3d?

if you use a strong rubber band connecting two balls, can you make them spin around? is that how atoms formed?

just simple question, please share your thought.
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #17 on: 17/05/2015 22:12:18 »
just simple question, please share your thought.
I started to once before, but we didn't get beyond electron energy levels.
If I say orbital you think something very different to me, you think little dot like planet going round a sun. If I say quantum, you say we don't see that at big size.
If I say wave function, you don't understand. If I say probability, you ask for definite.
We don't think the same, no common understanding, no point.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #18 on: 17/05/2015 22:21:57 »
the question is yes or no

i am confused
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #19 on: 18/05/2015 07:36:35 »
The answer to all your questions is "according to the laws of quantum mechanics". As stated in reply #1 above.

Instead of repeating the question, try reading the answer.
 

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Re: Questions on atomic structure theory
« Reply #19 on: 18/05/2015 07:36:35 »

 

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