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Author Topic: Should government start a genocide program?  (Read 7129 times)

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Should government start a genocide program?
« Reply #50 on: 10/05/2015 15:16:43 »
Given the validity of your opinions on physics, I very much doubt the accuracy or relevance of your observations of agriculture.

The bloke who owns the fields around my house isn't a corporation. Right now they aren't all under crop because he leaves some to grow weeds for a year then turns pigs and sheep out to mulch them. I guess I could steal a bit and  grow some carrots, but he has all sorts of machinery and years of study and experience that means he can do it much better than I can, and cheaper. So I go off to help heal the sick, get money, and buy my food from my farming neighbour who (given years of study and experience) might well be able to build linear accelerators and x-ray machines, but is quite happy to let me do it while he does his thing. Civilisation is specialisation.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2015 15:21:03 by alancalverd »
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: Should government start a genocide program?
« Reply #51 on: 11/05/2015 04:34:21 »
How much are willing to pay for this food? And how well do you like cabbage?
 

Offline Teakhat

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Re: Should government start a genocide program?
« Reply #52 on: 11/05/2015 08:02:56 »
Draw lots and eat the winners.....
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Should government start a genocide program?
« Reply #53 on: 11/05/2015 17:13:19 »
How much are willing to pay for this food? And how well do you like cabbage?

We strike a deal, as has been done between farmers and consumers since civilisation began.

As for cabbage, thanks to modern (i.e. post-1200) farming methods, he doesn't grow the same crop in every field every year. In fact there are several other farms nearby and around the world willing to supply just about anything you can eat, but to save having to negotiate with all of them, I visit markets and shops, wherein knowledgeable traders have made what we call wholesale deals with such productive gentlefolk, and arranged to bring a veritable selection of foods to my attention. We exchange money for goods, pretty much as you do on your planet.     

If we move towards sustainability by reducing the population, I think the price of food will decrease and its availability will increase. And before you ask "who will work the land?" it's worth looking at a simple fact: 80% of the Ugandan population works on the land, which is fertile, well watered, and never frozen. There are always shortages of food in Uganda. About 2% of the UK population works on the land, some of which is fertile and well watered but much is prone to flood, drought, and freezing. The supermarket shelves are groaning under the weight of food. Modern farming uses machines, not people. 
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Should government start a genocide program?
« Reply #54 on: 11/05/2015 19:19:01 »
Given the validity of your opinions on physics, I very much doubt the accuracy or relevance of your observations of agriculture.

The bloke who owns the fields around my house isn't a corporation. Right now they aren't all under crop because he leaves some to grow weeds for a year then turns pigs and sheep out to mulch them........
Yes, on a forum like this you soon get to know who is a reliable source of observation and analysis.

I was raised in a farming, mining community in the midlands and never saw idle land except as you describe Alan - even when I go back to visit. Same around here.
For various reasons I've done quite a lot of survival training, we grow our own veg, and buy as much as we can locally; so I know quite a few of the local farmers and open land. It's as you say, EU and Govt policy drives farming behaviour.
With a smaller, willing population it would be possible to survive but no one should be under any illusions, it is very hard work, especially if we lack fuel for mechanisation.

Excuse a diversion caused by the mention of cabbage, a Russian joke of the communist era
What is 100m long and eats cabbage?
A meat queue!
 

Offline cheryl j

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Re: Should government start a genocide program?
« Reply #55 on: 12/05/2015 01:19:17 »

We strike a deal, as has been done between farmers and consumers since civilisation began.

As for cabbage, thanks to modern (i.e. post-1200) farming methods, he doesn't grow the same crop in every field every year. In fact there are several other farms nearby and around the world willing to supply just about anything you can eat, but to save having to negotiate with all of them, I visit markets and shops, wherein knowledgeable traders have made what we call wholesale deals with such productive gentlefolk, and arranged to bring a veritable selection of foods to my attention. We exchange money for goods, pretty much as you do on your planet.     

If we move towards sustainability by reducing the population, I think the price of food will decrease and its availability will increase. And before you ask "who will work the land?" it's worth looking at a simple fact: 80% of the Ugandan population works on the land, which is fertile, well watered, and never frozen. There are always shortages of food in Uganda. About 2% of the UK population works on the land, some of which is fertile and well watered but much is prone to flood, drought, and freezing. The supermarket shelves are groaning under the weight of food. Modern farming uses machines, not people. 

I mention cabbage because I think it might be difficult to get people to revert back to a traditional seasonal diet where certain fruits and vegetables aren't available year round. England wouldn't be as bad as Canada, but I don't think you'll be growing bananas or coffee.  I suppose you could grow some fruits and vegetables  in green houses, but that's expensive and has an energy cost. You'd need huge tariffs to prevent people from importing cheaper food.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I did look at the graphs. When population reverses direction, I still don't see how you can avoid an interval of time where there are large numbers of elderly people relative the rest of the population. The money you spend on them might come from not having to spend money on children, so the proportion of working people to dependents might not change drastically, but which group is more expensive? Kids require new stuff as they grow, education, and parents often buy bigger houses to accommodate families. The elderly require pensions, much more health care, some prefer to live independently in homes or apartments rather than with their children until they need assisted living. Crime might drop with fewer young people which could be a savings.

Another question might be whether childless people will use their savings to support the elderly - perhaps their own parents, but not necessarily someone elses, and there will be an increasing number of older people without any children. Of course, they might be able to use money not spent on kids for their own retirement if they invest well. 
« Last Edit: 12/05/2015 01:21:12 by cheryl j »
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Should government start a genocide program?
« Reply #56 on: 12/05/2015 08:36:51 »
I mention cabbage because I think it might be difficult to get people to revert back to a traditional seasonal diet where certain fruits and vegetables aren't available year round. England wouldn't be as bad as Canada, but I don't think you'll be growing bananas or coffee.  I suppose you could grow some fruits and vegetables  in green houses, but that's expensive and has an energy cost. You'd need huge tariffs to prevent people from importing cheaper food.
You're right it is very difficult to get people to change their diet. Here in the UK the average calories from fat is 60% (30% recommended) and we have an obesity epidemic. Food manufactures want to sell as much cheap fat and sugar as they can. Certainly a major diet change would be very traumatic to most people, particularly restricted calories. I think the trigger would be equally traumatic. Not government action but say mutant Ebola with indirect transmission. The other scenario could be lack of access to cheaper imported food, China is already buying land around the world eg Africa for assured supply.
Diet would be very restricted. Our experience is that unless you have access to pesticides and fungicides greenhouses can fail dramatically. We are managing with organic alternatives, but there is still a lot of effort needed in hygiene. In the Middle Ages special foods were only available for the rich, the masses ate a cabbage, roots, grain diet with very little meat.
Our luxury is beekeeping, but I suspect it's main value would be for barter, preserving or mead - to take our minds off the monotonous diet.
« Last Edit: 12/05/2015 08:38:41 by Colin2B »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Should government start a genocide program?
« Reply #57 on: 12/05/2015 13:49:06 »
Why change your diet? Reducing the population doesn't involve destroying refrigerators or reverting  to the Stone Age, and if people want to import bananas and oranges, why shouldn't they? Indeed since everyone will have more money to spend, and free energy, we might expect food to become even more varied and interesting.

Cheryl: Could you possibly point out where, in my graphs, the ratio of nonworking population to working  exceeds the current value? There is a blip at 60 years hence, but as I explained earlier, that is an artefact of the coarse sampling interval and corrects itself within 5 years anyway. You seem to have missed the key point that children consume just as much as pensioners - but you are not alone in that misconception. The cost of raising a child to age 20 in the UK is now about 240,000. State pension is about 6000, so a 60-year-old can live for 40 years on what it costs to raise one child. But the over-60's die off at such a rate that there are only as many pensioners as children, so continuously reducing the number of children simply reduces the total burden on the working population. Remember this isn't a one-off pause in reproduction but a continuous process of reduction. 

For what it's worth, UK calorific intake has actually decreased since 1950, but the universal adoption of home insulation and central heatig has reduced our calorific demand even more. All my contemporaries remember being cold as children - none of my kids or grandchildren has ever felt cold indoors, and since nobody walks to school opr plays in the street these days, they probably won't ever experience routine coldness outdoors either!
« Last Edit: 12/05/2015 13:54:18 by alancalverd »
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Should government start a genocide program?
« Reply #58 on: 12/05/2015 16:55:23 »
For what it's worth, UK calorific intake has actually decreased since 1950, but the universal adoption of home insulation and central heatig has reduced our calorific demand even more. All my contemporaries remember being cold as children
I can remember scrapeing frost off the inside of the windows when I was small!

the reduction in calorie intake is interesting given that average weight appears to have increased over the same period, or is it weight of a specific part of the population - are we seeing  polarisation. Would be interesting to look at stats on manual labour over the period.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Should government start a genocide program?
« Reply #59 on: 12/05/2015 19:32:24 »
Nearly all your calorific intake is used to maintain your body temperature. The quickest way to lose weight is to take mild exercise (just enough so you don't feel cold) in a serious wind chill. I can lose 6000 calories a day when crosscountry skiing, but walking the same track in the summer only burns 2500 - 3000.   

Apropos cabbage: tonight's dinner was ostrich, beans, courgettes, onions, capsicum, broccoli and cheese. Yesterday we ate steak, asparagus, tomatoes and potatoes. The only ingredient not grown within 50 miles of home was...beans! Looking forward to tomorrow's aubergine and pak choi (both all the way from Essex) and whatever North Sea fish happens to turn up for dinner. Breakfast will probably be several bits of local pig and an egg from the hens next door, and since we live on the arable side of the country, plenty of toast with plum and cherry jam (OK, Kent is south of Watford, but it's still England). I'm still munching my way through last year's figs from the garden and getting stoned on English wines and beers whilst waiting for my olive tree to bear fruit (it's only a year old). I don't think I'd die from culinary boredom if I couldn't get bananas - in fact I haven't eaten one for about six months, and there's a fair possibility that they will become unaffordable anyway as the fusarium blight spreads around the tropics. So don't worry, Cheryl, my descendants won't have to survive on coleslaw alone.
« Last Edit: 12/05/2015 23:44:27 by alancalverd »
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Should government start a genocide program?
« Reply #60 on: 12/05/2015 23:57:35 »
Nearly all your calorific intake is used to maintain your body temperature. The quickest way to lose weight is to take mild exercise (just enough so you don't feel cold) in a serious wind chill. I can lose 6000 calories a day when crosscountry skiing, but walking the same track in the summer only burns 2500 - 3000. 
Thanks, I was about to start looking for info on BMR and temp. Don't want to disrupt this thread, but given we are told portion sizes have risen since the 50s, and we have an obesity epidemic I am interested to find out what is happening.
 

Offline Darwinism

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Re: Should government start a genocide program?
« Reply #61 on: 14/08/2015 22:24:18 »
They prolly are already doing this in africa with ebola
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Should government start a genocide program?
« Reply #62 on: 15/08/2015 18:50:29 »
Quote from: ~CB
It may sound inhuman to say such, but I believe that genocide is the only solution. We may lose some very valuable in the process. But, that's the only solution there is.
I'd never accept that as a solution. You just can't murder millions of people to control population. And it is murder. First of all people of various religions won't allow it and they have a great deal of pull in this world. I think that the goal should be to limit people to two children per couple. But it would require education to control population and try to make people become more responsible birth control wise. For example; there should be a law which would fine a couple if a woman got pregnant without a declaration of intention to do so. This would force people to try to be much more responsible than they are now.

I took a quick look at some data regarding race vs family size and Hispanics appear to have the largest families across the country so by looking at the data itself it's clear that race is a large determining factor as to who has children. I'd hazard to guess that it's based on a lack of education and that might affect a persons sense of responsibility.

So if we were to do something I'd say that we should fine people who have kids by accident. It's a hell of a lot better than murdering them. How would we determine who ends up dead anyway? I won't volunteer, that's for sure.

But if that kind of thing is implemented I'd like to see it done with a great deal of compassion. Otherwise I can just see it now. There'd be a social worker helping kids to pay their large fine and they'd have to do it on installment plan etc. But after so long the social worker, seeing irresponsible people all day long all year long, might be quite rude to those people and end up doing a great deal of emotional damage to them for making them feel guilty about what's really a very natural thing.
« Last Edit: 15/08/2015 18:54:31 by PmbPhy »
 

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Re: Should government start a genocide program?
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