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Author Topic: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?  (Read 26909 times)

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #25 on: 09/05/2015 13:30:47 »
Quote from: Thebox
I disagree, your answers are contradictory and this is why science keeps confusing me.
On the contrary. His answers are spot on. You keep getting confused because you refuse to learn physics and you'll continue to be confused until you pick up a book and learn it. E.g. read the book The Road to Reality: A Complete Guide to the Laws of the Universe by Roger Penrose, (2004). It's 1045 pages long. Once you've read that book cover to cover you'll have taken a good step to understanding physics.

Quote from: Thebox
Science says that all matter is made of atoms ? yes or no
No. An electron is said to be matter. However an electron is not made of atoms. If one defines the term matter in the same way that Einstein did, i.e. as it's existence being dependent on the non-vanishing of the stress-energy-momentum (SEM) tensor, then no, all matter is not made of atoms. For example: electric and magnetic fields don't have a vanishing SEM tensor so an EM field is made of matter. So it can be said that light is made of matter and I'm assuming you know that light is not made of matter.

Quote from: Thebox
The Cavendish experiment shows using ''balls'' that all mass is attracted to mass? yes or no
For the most part, yes. However general relativity (GR) allows for the existence of matter which gravitationally repels normal matter. Look up the phrase vacuum domain wall. You'll find articles such as this

Gravitationally repulsive domain wall by J. Ipser and P. Sikivie, Phys. Rev. D 30, 712, Aug. 15, 1984
http://journals.aps.org/prd/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevD.30.712
Quote
Abstract - The Gauss-Codazzi formalism is used to obtain exact solutions to Einstein's equations in the presence of domain walls. Domain walls are shown to have repulsive gravitational fields. The most general solution to Einstein's equations for a planar domain wall is obtained. Also, the motion of a spherical domain wall in an asymptotically flat space-time is derived.
Note the part that says Domain walls are shown to have repulsive gravitational fields.

Quote from: Thebox
All matter has mass? yes or no
Yes.

Quote from: Thebox
A single atom has mass? yes or no
Yes.

Quote from: Thebox
single atoms mass are attracted to other single atoms mass? yes or no
Gravitationally? Yes.

Quote from: Thebox
What makes a cluster of atoms(an object) fall to the ground?
You already know the answer. Gravity.

Quote from: Thebox
Atoms have to be attracted to atoms ,
That's correct. Atoms have a gravitational field.

Quote from: Thebox
You say an electron is a negative polarity attached to a positive polarity Proton,
Incorrect. You're misusing the term "polarity." That term is defined as follows
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polarity
Quote
physics : the condition of having positive and negative charges and especially magnetic or electrical poles
The correct way to phrase what you wanted is as follows
Quote
You say an electron is a negative charge attached to a positively charged Proton,
That's true. However this is happening at the subatomic level so you have to use quantum mechanics to describe it. Otherwise you're going to run into problems.

Quote from: Thebox
So the atom emits a positive and a negative polarity at the same time? yes or no
No. Atoms don't "emit" positive or negative charge (or polarity) whatsoever.

Quote from: Thebox
a (+) and (-) electrostatic nuclear bond, would = +- in attract? yes or no A+B=C
Here's where your refusal to learn physics is causing problems. That statement is so poorly phrased as to be meaningless. I.e. it's quite unclear what exactly you mean when you write "a (+) and (-) electrostatic nuclear bond". In any case the bond between nuclei is a result of the strong force and not the electrostatic force.

Quote from: Thebox
You think that you know what you're talking about but you really don't.
Bzzzzz! Wrong! He knows precisely what he's talking about. In fact he knows physics and what he's talking about a great deal more than you do, that's for certain. The fact that everyone here agrees with that opinion doesn't seem to be getting through to you. Why is that? You won't even attempt to demonstrate that everyone is wrong.
 
Quote from: Thebox
Science keeps leaving me without answers, I am quoting your own facts back to you, not making random assumptions, it is your information.
Wow! You're well-known for being the king of random assumptions and you're accusing others of it? Lol!
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #26 on: 09/05/2015 13:39:26 »
Let's get something clear once and for all. Let M = mass of Earth and Q it's charge. Let m << M be the mass of a test particle and q << Q its charge. Let a = acceleration of the test particle. According to TB the force on the test particle due to the Earth is

F = ma = kQq/r2

Solving for a gives

a = kQq/mr2 = (q/m)kQ/r2

This shows that the acceleration of a charged particle in the presence of a charged Earth is a function of the test particle's charge to mass ratio. Therefore different particles will fall at different rates. Particles with no charge, such as neutrons, won't fall at all. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_particle for a list of such particles.

Since we can easily observe that all particles and all objects fall at exactly the same rate independent of the object's charge. So, once again, TB is wrong.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #27 on: 09/05/2015 14:07:40 »

Quote from: Thebox
single atoms mass are attracted to other single atoms mass? yes or no
Gravitationally? Yes.


Thank you for your thoughtful post and answers.  Firstly I would like to question your answer to the above where you agree and say yes.

So if we have 2 atoms , A and B , for example purposes 10 inch apart in a perfect vacuum, both atoms will be attracted to each other by mass and gravitational force.

A>>>>><<<<<B

<> = 1 inch


The same applies if A^10 and B^10 being more atoms yes?

So if one atom has mass why do we need to look any further than an atom into gravity?

My reasoning tells me that a single atoms has gravity so the answer of gravity is in or of an atom.  Nothing bigger matters.

 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #28 on: 09/05/2015 23:49:38 »
My reasoning tells me that a single atoms has gravity so the answer of gravity is in or of an atom.  Nothing bigger matters.

Then abandon "reasoning", which so far seems to have led you to all sorts of fanciful nonsense, and consider only facts. All matter has a gravitational field. This applies not only to atoms and things made of atoms, but to subatomic particles too. Gravitation is associated with mass and F=Gm1m2/r2 for any value or embodiment of m, whether or not it carries an electric charge or a magnetic moment. 
« Last Edit: 10/05/2015 00:43:02 by alancalverd »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #29 on: 10/05/2015 10:48:50 »
My reasoning tells me that a single atoms has gravity so the answer of gravity is in or of an atom.  Nothing bigger matters.

Then abandon "reasoning", which so far seems to have led you to all sorts of fanciful nonsense, and consider only facts. All matter has a gravitational field. This applies not only to atoms and things made of atoms, but to subatomic particles too. Gravitation is associated with mass and F=Gm1m2/r2 for any value or embodiment of m, whether or not it carries an electric charge or a magnetic moment.

I do understand gravity, that is not my question I want to know why? abandoning reasoning is to accept the colour red without knowing why it is red. Your version of gravity is red.
Why can no one in science just answer simple questions?

Science leaves people confused without full answers all the time.


 if one atom has mass why do we need to look any further than an atom into gravity?
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #30 on: 10/05/2015 14:51:25 »
Science leaves people confused without full answers all the time.
Some people are confused all the time

if one atom has mass why do we need to look any further than an atom into gravity?
This has been answered in your post "Protons are attracted to Protons .." and in other post you have made along with the current position on gravity.

I'm not sure you bother to read them! You certainly don't understand them, why do you assume simple questions have simple answers? You claim to be a great thinker, but none of your great thought hang together.

Go forth and learn some physics.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #31 on: 10/05/2015 15:00:36 »
Science leaves people confused without full answers all the time.
Some people are confused all the time

if one atom has mass why do we need to look any further than an atom into gravity?
This has been answered in your post "Protons are attracted to Protons .." and in other post you have made along with the current position on gravity.

I'm not sure you bother to read them! You certainly don't understand them, why do you assume simple questions have simple answers? You claim to be a great thinker, but none of your great thought hang together.

Go forth and learn some physics.

So the answer to my question of why does an object fall to the ground?, is because Protons are attracted to protons and is the gravity mechanism.

I will answer it myself to myself because that is what science leaves me to conclude.   You say go off and learn some physics yet I am producing Physics without even knowing all of the Physics. I am making it up as I go along by thinking of the basics.  Your gravity mechanism is protons, you have just told me this .



 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #32 on: 10/05/2015 15:01:32 »

I do understand gravity, that is not my question


Apparently not, otherwise you wouldn't have asked the question.

Quote
I want to know why?

Wrong forum. There is no "why" in physics because we can't assume a universal ulterior motive for anything. We can explain "how" in terms of a few fundamental particles and forces, and for the present, gravitation is one of those forces.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #33 on: 10/05/2015 15:17:09 »

I do understand gravity, that is not my question


Apparently not, otherwise you wouldn't have asked the question.

Quote
I want to know why?

Wrong forum. There is no "why" in physics because we can't assume a universal ulterior motive for anything. We can explain "how" in terms of a few fundamental particles and forces, and for the present, gravitation is one of those forces.

I disagree, why is the answer to everything, why does an object fall, answer gravity, I do not assume anything, all my physics is based on your facts., 

protons are attracted to protons as admitted, I throw an object into the air, the objects protons are attracted to the protons of the earth, shown in the Cavendish experiment as such.

radiation that fills all of space is an ''electrical coupling'', that is why you can not detect a gravitational wave,  the radiation is the conduit for the protons attractive force.

See this is my problem, most science forums agree with the physics then deny the physics at the same time, the same as you do on here.


You can not say a proton is attracted to a proton then deny that has anything to do with gravity, it is contradictory , we have established the atom is all we need to look at gravity by question answers you give of yes to my questions.


All atoms have mass, all atoms have protons, all protons are attracted to protons, it is simplicity that is true physics to your facts, not even my physics, your already existing facts.



 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #34 on: 10/05/2015 17:03:05 »
Very basic facts: there are 4 fundamental forces: gravity, electromagnetism, the weak nuclear force, and the strong nuclear force.

They have nothing to do with each other (well, electromagnetic and weak do...) but all must be considered when talking about interactions between particles.

Protons attract each other at any distance due to gravity (which is the weakest of the forces).

Protons repel each other at any distance due to electromagnetic interaction.

Protons attract each other when they are very (very, very) close due to the strong nuclear force.

If no other particles are considered, the overall interaction between protons is REPULSIVE at any distance (electromagnetic repulsion overpowers gravitation at every distance, and even in the range where the strong force is active, it is not quite enough to overpower this repulsion).

Once we allow for neutrons, which are electrically neutral and therefore neither attract nor repel protons electromagnetically, but follow the same gravitational (slightly more massive than protons) and strong interactions, then the strong force can out-do the electromagnetic force. One neutron is enough to bind two protons together into a nucleus, and one can produce stable nuclei containing up to 100 or so protons, so long as there are enough neutrons included.

However, each nucleus is still positively charged, and gravitation will never bring them together until there is some negative charge too (enter the electron). Neutral atoms and molecules (where the number of electrons is equal to the number of protons) can now have a net attraction to each other (though this is still mostly through electromagnetic interations like dipole-dipole or van der Waals interactions) and can be gravitationally pulled into objects like planets and stars.
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #35 on: 10/05/2015 21:47:37 »
Very basic facts
The Box is not interested in facts, just his own theories.
I don't believe he even reads our posts.

One thing is certain, he is trolling. Posts like this are intended to draw folks into a discussion just so he can say 'you are wrong' and introduce his own New Theory.
Hence he should be posting only in new theories.
« Last Edit: 11/05/2015 04:15:07 by Colin2B »
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #36 on: 11/05/2015 13:44:46 »
Quote from: Colin
The Box is not interested in facts,

BTAIM, posts like Chiral's are good for those of us who want to learn. :)
 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #37 on: 11/05/2015 16:32:21 »
Why thank you!  ;D

Of course, we must always remember that those who post questions are not the only ones who could benefit from the answers.
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #38 on: 11/05/2015 18:52:53 »
Why thank you!  ;D

Of course, we must always remember that those who post questions are not the only ones who could benefit from the answers.
Yes, thanks all round Chiral. The only reason I bothered to post in this thread was because I was concerned innocent minds might be perverted.

Having said that, THe Box is not interested in facts, he is a troll. Heed my words you innocents and read Chiral's post to learn the truth.
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #39 on: 11/05/2015 19:24:40 »
Why can't we just look at the atom to understand gravity? Well that is an interesting question. As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing. With the atom I can see no way of decreasing the electron orbitals and proton radius other than in an extreme environment. Even then you would have to observe this effect remotely as it wouldn't even be noticeable in the local frame. This brings to mind tidal forces and the opposite effect. Would this then expand the electron orbitals and proton radius? What the local observer would see in a frame of increasing tidal force. Can this still be considered an inertial frame?
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #40 on: 11/05/2015 19:28:19 »
Why can't we just look at the atom to understand gravity? Well that is an interesting question. As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing. With the atom I can see no way of decreasing the electron orbitals and proton radius other than in an extreme environment. Even then you would have to observe this effect remotely as it wouldn't even be noticeable in the local frame. This brings to mind tidal forces and the opposite effect. Would this then expand the electron orbitals and proton radius? What the local observer would see in a frame of increasing tidal force. Can this still be considered an inertial frame?

exactly jeffrey
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #41 on: 11/05/2015 19:31:46 »
Why can't we just look at the atom to understand gravity? Well that is an interesting question. As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing. With the atom I can see no way of decreasing the electron orbitals and proton radius other than in an extreme environment. Even then you would have to observe this effect remotely as it wouldn't even be noticeable in the local frame. This brings to mind tidal forces and the opposite effect. Would this then expand the electron orbitals and proton radius? What the local observer would see in a frame of increasing tidal force. Can this still be considered an inertial frame?

exactly jeffrey

Don't cherry pick it wasn't an argument in your favour.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #42 on: 11/05/2015 19:37:34 »
Why can't we just look at the atom to understand gravity? Well that is an interesting question. As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing. With the atom I can see no way of decreasing the electron orbitals and proton radius other than in an extreme environment. Even then you would have to observe this effect remotely as it wouldn't even be noticeable in the local frame. This brings to mind tidal forces and the opposite effect. Would this then expand the electron orbitals and proton radius? What the local observer would see in a frame of increasing tidal force. Can this still be considered an inertial frame?

exactly jeffrey

Don't cherry pick it wasn't an argument in your favour.

Yes it was, you said it is a good question, because it is a good question, small is the same as big, it doe snot matter, already agreed atoms have mass.

atom 1 - m1

atom 2 - m2

m1 is equally attracted to m2

added - is a Proton, mass?

or should we be discussing the mass of a quark?



« Last Edit: 11/05/2015 20:42:51 by Thebox »
 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #43 on: 11/05/2015 22:57:05 »
small is the same as big

Unfortunately, small is not the same as big. This applies to very simple systems (like glowing spheres, whose ratio of surface area to volume changes based on their size, so small ones cool faster than large ones) to very complex systems where there are many different variables that all scale differently with size.

And for systems that are small enough, we must consider the rules imposed on the quantum world, importantly including:
 -some things cannot be subdivided into smaller parts that have the same properties (you cannot shrink or split a hydrogen atom into smaller versions of itself)
-waves become the better analogy for describing most things at this scale
-determinism, causality and simultaneity don't necessarily apply
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #44 on: 11/05/2015 23:38:13 »
Why can't we just look at the atom to understand gravity? Well that is an interesting question. As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing. With the atom I can see no way of decreasing the electron orbitals and proton radius other than in an extreme environment. Even then you would have to observe this effect remotely as it wouldn't even be noticeable in the local frame. This brings to mind tidal forces and the opposite effect. Would this then expand the electron orbitals and proton radius? What the local observer would see in a frame of increasing tidal force. Can this still be considered an inertial frame?
Sounds like a separate thread. This one has got too confused with sidetracked questions and it wasn't the subject of the original question.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #45 on: 12/05/2015 03:02:55 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing.
I don't understand what you mean by As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object ..
It's the mass that causes an increase in the gravitational field of an object, not the density. Consider a spherical body with a spherically symmetric mass distribution with constant mass density. Let the initial radius be R. When you increase the density of the object by crushing it so as to force all the matter into a smaller space then the gravitational field at distances greater than R remains constant because the mass hasn't changed.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #46 on: 12/05/2015 17:46:16 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing.
I don't understand what you mean by As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object ..
It's the mass that causes an increase in the gravitational field of an object, not the density. Consider a spherical body with a spherically symmetric mass distribution with constant mass density. Let the initial radius be R. When you increase the density of the object by crushing it so as to force all the matter into a smaller space then the gravitational field at distances greater than R remains constant because the mass hasn't changed.

I agree
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #47 on: 12/05/2015 17:49:25 »
Why can't we just look at the atom to understand gravity? Well that is an interesting question. As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing. With the atom I can see no way of decreasing the electron orbitals and proton radius other than in an extreme environment. Even then you would have to observe this effect remotely as it wouldn't even be noticeable in the local frame. This brings to mind tidal forces and the opposite effect. Would this then expand the electron orbitals and proton radius? What the local observer would see in a frame of increasing tidal force. Can this still be considered an inertial frame?
Sounds like a separate thread. This one has got too confused with sidetracked questions and it wasn't the subject of the original question.

It is the original question but in more detail.
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #48 on: 12/05/2015 19:47:12 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object since the radius of the said object must be decreasing.
I don't understand what you mean by As the density of matter increases so does the gravity at the surface of an object ..
It's the mass that causes an increase in the gravitational field of an object, not the density. Consider a spherical body with a spherically symmetric mass distribution with constant mass density. Let the initial radius be R. When you increase the density of the object by crushing it so as to force all the matter into a smaller space then the gravitational field at distances greater than R remains constant because the mass hasn't changed.

That's why I said "at the surface", this being a shrinking surface area.
« Last Edit: 12/05/2015 19:49:26 by jeffreyH »
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #49 on: 13/05/2015 04:37:07 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
That's why I said "at the surface", this being a shrinking surface area.
I see. I apparently was confused about which surface you were talking about. I made the mistake of thinking that it was the original one.

If one is familiar with Gauss's theorem then that is a trivial deduction. Do you know Gauss's theorem?
 

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #49 on: 13/05/2015 04:37:07 »

 

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