# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?  (Read 26690 times)

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #50 on: 13/05/2015 06:36:04 »
I see. I apparently was confused about which surface you were talking about. I made the mistake of thinking that it was the original one.
This is why I consider this a separate question. The original question is what makes an object fall to the ground, not why isn't gravity a function of atomic interactions (which it might well turn out to be!).

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #51 on: 13/05/2015 13:20:06 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
That's why I said "at the surface", this being a shrinking surface area.
I see. I apparently was confused about which surface you were talking about. I made the mistake of thinking that it was the original one.

If one is familiar with Gauss's theorem then that is a trivial deduction. Do you know Gauss's theorem?

I have come across Gauss's theorem but not really concentrated on it.

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #52 on: 13/05/2015 13:21:17 »
I see. I apparently was confused about which surface you were talking about. I made the mistake of thinking that it was the original one.
This is why I consider this a separate question. The original question is what makes an object fall to the ground, not why isn't gravity a function of atomic interactions (which it might well turn out to be!).

I have thought quite a bit about how atomic interactions could be the cause of gravity and was never satisfied with any of my conclusions.

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #53 on: 13/05/2015 14:46:56 »
I have thought quite a bit about how atomic interactions could be the cause of gravity and was never satisfied with any of my conclusions.
I respect your opinion because I know how much work you put into understanding difficult subjects, and I have seen the quality of your analysis on these subjects.

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #54 on: 13/05/2015 17:54:04 »
I will say this. There is a gap in our concept of mass that does not explain the mass difference and charge magnitude equivalence between the electron and the proton. Until that is sorted out things are not going to advance in any fundamental way.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #55 on: 13/05/2015 21:23:57 »
I see. I apparently was confused about which surface you were talking about. I made the mistake of thinking that it was the original one.
This is why I consider this a separate question. The original question is what makes an object fall to the ground, not why isn't gravity a function of atomic interactions (which it might well turn out to be!).

This is why it is a part of the question.

example - I fall from a plane with no parachute, (which the thought would make some of you smile).

there is something pulling all that my body is made of to the ground.

hence gravity

so what is gravity the force that makes all that my body is made of fall to the ground?

The ground is made from the same stuff as your body , the stuff are called atoms.

so my atoms are attracted to other atoms because other atoms and my atoms have mass?

yes indeed.

so what part of the atoms of my body attract to other atoms?

well there is protons which are quarks, and quarks attract quarks, so maybe......this is why you fall to the floor.

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #56 on: 13/05/2015 21:54:35 »
From quantum Chromodynamics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_chromodynamics
[According to the rules of quantum field theory, and the associated Feynman diagrams, the above theory gives rise to three basic interactions: a quark may emit (or absorb) a gluon, a gluon may emit (or absorb) a gluon, and two gluons may directly interact. This contrasts with QED, in which only the first kind of interaction occurs, since photons have no charge. Diagrams involving Faddeev–Popov ghosts must be considered too (except in the unitarity gauge).]

Look in particular at the ghost field Lagrangian. Note the difference between QED and QCD.

[The first term is a kinetic term like for regular complex scalar fields, and the second term describes the interaction with the gauge fields. Note that in abelian gauge theories (such as quantum electrodynamics) the ghosts do not have any effect since and, consequently, the ghost particles do not interact with the gauge fields.]

What do you think Mr Box?

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #57 on: 13/05/2015 22:05:21 »
From quantum Chromodynamics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_chromodynamics
[According to the rules of quantum field theory, and the associated Feynman diagrams, the above theory gives rise to three basic interactions: a quark may emit (or absorb) a gluon, a gluon may emit (or absorb) a gluon, and two gluons may directly interact. This contrasts with QED, in which only the first kind of interaction occurs, since photons have no charge. Diagrams involving Faddeev–Popov ghosts must be considered too (except in the unitarity gauge).]

Look in particular at the ghost field Lagrangian. Note the difference between QED and QCD.

[The first term is a kinetic term like for regular complex scalar fields, and the second term describes the interaction with the gauge fields. Note that in abelian gauge theories (such as quantum electrodynamics) the ghosts do not have any effect since and, consequently, the ghost particles do not interact with the gauge fields.]

What do you think Mr Box?

Thank you for the interesting links, I will read these tomorrow night and think them through, I have work in the morning so need go to bed.

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #58 on: 13/05/2015 22:27:28 »
well there is protons which are quarks, and quarks attract quarks, so maybe......this is why you fall to the floor.
We've explained before that what attract nucleons together is not gravity.
I don't see the point in responding to your posts if your don't read what we say.

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #59 on: 13/05/2015 22:37:26 »
Note also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_chromodynamics
[QCD is a type of quantum field theory called a non-abelian gauge theory with symmetry group SU(3).]

Since SU(3) is non-abelian then does "Note that in abelian gauge theories (such as quantum electrodynamics) the ghosts do not have any effect since and, consequently, the ghost particles do not interact with the gauge fields." mean that Faddeev–Popov ghost fields apply differently in QCD?

« Last Edit: 13/05/2015 22:39:33 by jeffreyH »

#### PmbPhy

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #60 on: 14/05/2015 01:19:26 »
Quote from: Thebox
so what is gravity the force that makes all that my body is made of fall to the ground?
I wish you'd phrase things such that they're more readable and clearer. The phrase "so what is gravity the force..." doesn't make sense. If it's what I think you meant then you need to use punctuation to make it readable. I.e. did you mean to ask
Quote
So what is gravity? Is it the force that makes all that my body is made of fall to the ground?
or perhaps
Quote
So what is gravity? It is the force that makes all that my body is made of fall to the ground?
etc.

You you should know by now that this is a question about the mechanism of gravity and not something that can be answered at this stage of physics. GR only tells us how to describe gravitational interactions. It can't tell you why they occur. If there is ever a quantum theory of gravity then we might learn that the gravitational interaction between objects is mediated by gravitons in the same way that the electromagnetic interaction between charged particles are mediated by photons (virtual photons to be exact). I've lost count of how many times I've told you this. Why do you ignore what we keep telling you? What's the point of anybody answering your questions if you're going to forget them right off the bat and pose the same questions all over a few days later?

Quote from: Thebox
The ground is made from the same stuff as your body , the stuff are called atoms.
Bad grammar.  That should be expressed as "the stuff is called atoms.[/u]

Quote from: Thebox
so what part of the atoms of my body attract to other atoms?
You can't be serious? The gravitational force between any two particles is given by F12 = G m1m2/r2 regardless of what particle it is. Are you going to tell me that you didn't know this well-known fact?

Quote from: Thebox
well there is protons which are quarks, ...
No. Protons are not quarks. They are composed of quarks.

#### PmbPhy

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #61 on: 14/05/2015 06:56:52 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
I will say this. There is a gap in our concept of mass...
Woa there. Who are the "our" that you're referring to? Not I, that's for sure.

Quote from: jeffreyH
.. that does not explain the mass difference and charge magnitude equivalence between the electron and the proton. Until that is sorted out things are not going to advance in any fundamental way.
Why would you think that there is a gap in our concept of mass and not in our understanding of subatomic particles?

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #62 on: 15/05/2015 00:02:01 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
I will say this. There is a gap in our concept of mass...
Woa there. Who are the "our" that you're referring to? Not I, that's for sure.

Quote from: jeffreyH
.. that does not explain the mass difference and charge magnitude equivalence between the electron and the proton. Until that is sorted out things are not going to advance in any fundamental way.
Why would you think that there is a gap in our concept of mass and not in our understanding of subatomic particles?

The way I see it it is both.

#### PmbPhy

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #63 on: 15/05/2015 08:18:41 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
The way I see it it is both.
This is what you were arguing when you made that comment, i.e.
Quote
There is a gap in our concept of mass that does not explain the mass difference and charge magnitude equivalence between the electron and the proton.
You never did state what you meant by these relationships and why their value should be of any significance to anything else in physics. Do you think that you can explain that for me? Thanks.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #64 on: 15/05/2015 19:00:22 »
Quote from: Thebox
so what is gravity the force that makes all that my body is made of fall to the ground?
I wish you'd phrase things such that they're more readable and clearer. The phrase "so what is gravity the force..." doesn't make sense. If it's what I think you meant then you need to use punctuation to make it readable. I.e. did you mean to ask
Quote
So what is gravity? Is it the force that makes all that my body is made of fall to the ground?
or perhaps
Quote
So what is gravity? It is the force that makes all that my body is made of fall to the ground?
etc.

You you should know by now that this is a question about the mechanism of gravity and not something that can be answered at this stage of physics. GR only tells us how to describe gravitational interactions. It can't tell you why they occur. If there is ever a quantum theory of gravity then we might learn that the gravitational interaction between objects is mediated by gravitons in the same way that the electromagnetic interaction between charged particles are mediated by photons (virtual photons to be exact). I've lost count of how many times I've told you this. Why do you ignore what we keep telling you? What's the point of anybody answering your questions if you're going to forget them right off the bat and pose the same questions all over a few days later?

Quote from: Thebox
The ground is made from the same stuff as your body , the stuff are called atoms.
Bad grammar.  That should be expressed as "the stuff is called atoms.[/u]

Quote from: Thebox
so what part of the atoms of my body attract to other atoms?
You can't be serious? The gravitational force between any two particles is given by F12 = G m1m2/r2 regardless of what particle it is. Are you going to tell me that you didn't know this well-known fact?

Quote from: Thebox
well there is protons which are quarks, ...
No. Protons are not quarks. They are composed of quarks.

You just openly admitted that you do not know the real reason of why an object falls to the ground, because you do not know the mechanism of gravity.

Is this not a forum for discussion?

why can we not discuss and look for an answer to my question right here?

You want to know, I want to know, lets answer it in this thread by discussing it, all I have ever wanted from any forum , is to discuss the information I am reading and to look for answers we do not know.

I have a mind and I can think very well about absolutely anything.

I  know you say that what holds an  atom together as nothing to do with gravity, I have not said it does.

Can we agree that we know atoms have mass, and to discuss atoms concerning gravity is valid ?

I will start a discussion, if anyone wants to discuss things.

Science says that atoms have proton(s).  These Protons are made up of  3 quarks,

my first thought on this is, can we observe this or is this just theory?

« Last Edit: 15/05/2015 19:06:04 by Thebox »

#### PmbPhy

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #65 on: 15/05/2015 19:18:22 »
Quote from: Thebox
You just openly admitted that you do not know the real reason of why an object falls to the ground, because you do not know the mechanism of gravity.
And, as I've said countless times before, this is an example of what happens when someone doesn't read physics texts or philosophy of physics texts, i.e. you fail to understand the nature of physics. This is a perfect example of it. You have, yet once again, demonstrated that you don't understand the nature of physics and its that failure that has led you to believe that not knowing that general relativity cannot explain gravity to be some sort of failure on its part or on the part of physics. It's not.

In the article Gravitation and the Principle of Relativity by A.S. Eddington, Nature, March 14, 1918, wrote on page 36
Quote
The purpose of Einstein’s new theory has often been misunderstood, and it has been criticized as an attempt to explain gravitation. The theory does not offer any explanation of gravitation; that lies outside its scope, and it does not even hint at a possible mechanism. It is true that we have introduced a definite hypothesis as to the relation between gravitation and a distortion of space; but if that explains anything, it explains not gravitation, but space, i.e. the scaffolding constructed for our measures.
So while the rest of the physics community understands these facts you most certainly do not.

Quote from: Thebox
Is this not a forum for discussion?
Of course it is.

Quote from: Thebox
why can we not discuss and look for an answer to my question right here?
Nobody ever suggested that you can't.

Quote from: Thebox
so what is gravity
You want to know, I want to know, lets answer it in this thread by discussing it, all I have ever wanted from any forum , is to discuss the information I am reading and to look for answers we do not know.
You actually think it's as easy as that, huh? Well take my word for it. It's not. The greatest minds in physics have been seeking the answers to those questions for the last hundred years. Why do you, someone who refuses to even learn physics, actually think that you have what it takes to solve the problem?

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #66 on: 15/05/2015 19:34:59 »

You actually think it's as easy as that, huh? Well take my word for it. It's not. The greatest minds in physics have been seeking the answers to those questions for the last hundred years. Why do you, someone who refuses to even learn physics, actually think that you have what it takes to solve the problem?

I see the Universe as small, there is not much to it.  Greatest minds in Physics...hmmmmm a different subject knowing information ,does not mean a great mind for thinking.

''actually think that you have what it takes to solve the problem?''

I am pretty sure I already have the answer but that would be theory and  not discussion.   I wish to discuss your information , establish true facts from fiction and discuss it.

My first question was , can we observe an atom?

if not ,then what makes everyone think they are made up of components?

« Last Edit: 15/05/2015 19:41:28 by Thebox »

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #67 on: 15/05/2015 19:41:33 »

My first question was , can we observe a Proton?

Yes, but only if you think you can observe a cow. Otherwise you  will end up discussing the meaning of "observe". The joy of living in the countryside and working in physics is that I can do both on the same day.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #68 on: 15/05/2015 19:49:16 »

My first question was , can we observe a Proton?

Yes, but only if you think you can observe a cow. Otherwise you  will end up discussing the meaning of "observe". The joy of living in the countryside and working in physics is that I can do both on the same day.

So you are talking about imagination, can I imagine a Proton while I type? yes , decomposing  any structure leaves an elementary particle.

The logic is that things are made up of a single particle.

I do not imagine a single particle made up of components.

So where does this leave your imagination , where do the add ons come from?  proton, electron, nuetron,pions.gluons,quarks etc
« Last Edit: 15/05/2015 19:51:07 by Thebox »

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #69 on: 16/05/2015 08:28:51 »
So you are talking about imagination, can I imagine a Proton while I type? yes , decomposing  any structure leaves an elementary particle.
No, Alancalvard was not talking about imagination, but observation.
This degree of misunderstanding is why you are unlikely to get anyone engaging in this conversation with you. The disconnect is too great, too basic.
To engage in a meaningful discussion you need a level of understanding beyond basic and you have not demonstrated that you have even a basic understanding of the fundamental principles.
It is like discussing the detailed, subtleties of French grammar with someone who refuses to learn even school level French.
« Last Edit: 16/05/2015 09:18:49 by Colin2B »

#### evan_au

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #70 on: 16/05/2015 10:44:18 »
Quote from: TheBox
I do not imagine a single particle made up of components.
I'm afraid that Democritus and Leucippus beat you to that conclusion by almost 2500 years.

They reasoned that if you broke matter into smaller & smaller pieces, you must eventually reach a size that could not be broken down further. They called these indivisible components "atoms".

Chemists broke matter into its constituent atoms by using chemical reactions, and later, electrolysis. Mendeleev catalogued these atoms through the development of the periodic table.

Of course, if you use a bigger hammer, you can break things into even smaller pieces.
• Marie & Pierre Curie did groundbreaking work on radioactive decay, which is much more energetic than chemical reactions.
• Atom smashers like today's LHC use an even bigger hammer, and produce even more pieces
• It is thought the Big Bang was the ultimate hammer, and would have produced particles which we can, for now, only now imagine.
So the logic of Democritus still stands - there must be some "fundamental" particle(s) that you cannot break down further; but we now suspect that the actual list depends on how big a hammer you have in your toolkit.

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #71 on: 16/05/2015 14:02:23 »
Quote from: jeffreyH
The way I see it it is both.
This is what you were arguing when you made that comment, i.e.
Quote
There is a gap in our concept of mass that does not explain the mass difference and charge magnitude equivalence between the electron and the proton.
You never did state what you meant by these relationships and why their value should be of any significance to anything else in physics. Do you think that you can explain that for me? Thanks.

I need to double check some facts before answering. I may start a new thread when I get to that stage.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #72 on: 17/05/2015 18:04:05 »
So you are talking about imagination, can I imagine a Proton while I type? yes , decomposing  any structure leaves an elementary particle.
No, Alancalvard was not talking about imagination, but observation.
This degree of misunderstanding is why you are unlikely to get anyone engaging in this conversation with you. The disconnect is too great, too basic.
To engage in a meaningful discussion you need a level of understanding beyond basic and you have not demonstrated that you have even a basic understanding of the fundamental principles.
It is like discussing the detailed, subtleties of French grammar with someone who refuses to learn even school level French.

I am not misunderstanding, I know , you know, and we all know that you can not see an atom directly let alone a Proton, quark, pion, neutron etc.

I would say with a certainty you do not observe this.

You have a few experiments that show a reaction etc, this still does not show a Proton etc
to exist.

So yes logical imagination it is, a theory without conclusive evidence.

I certainly agree in a single particle by evidence.   You can call it an atom, I will for all purposes of true values call it particle X.

For discussion purposes I would like to ask you to consider a single particle, particle X , there is nothing attached to it , it is an individual particle with no hidden agendas.

My question is to you, if particle X comes into contact with EMR (electro-magnetic radiation), I assume particle X by having an entropy = to  ''M'', M defining mass , will by thermodynamics gain energy and also lose energy.

So would you agree that if we fired electrons at particle X , that particle X would ''charge'' and emit energy ?

I use energy in a generalised sense.

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #73 on: 18/05/2015 08:32:28 »
My first question was , can we observe a Proton?
Yes, but only if you think you can observe a cow. Otherwise you  will end up discussing the meaning of "observe".

I would say with a certainty you do not observe this.

Note this jccc, alancalvard is a person who can predict the future.

#### chiralSPO

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##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #74 on: 18/05/2015 13:25:26 »
Even though we cannot see an atom directly with our eyes, we have microscopes that allow us to "see" them--see here:

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2012/09/17/another_one_of_those_startling_molecular_images.php
http://spie.org/x48127.xml
http://www.dmphotonics.com/Scanning_Probe_Microscopy/Atomic%20resolution%20on%20HOPG%20obtained%20with%20the%20100%20micron%20scanner.htm

Do you believe in the planet Neptune? There is no way you can see it from Earth unaided by any sort of technology, but we can see it with telescopes, have sent probes past it, and we could infer its existence by perturbations in Saturn's orbit.

There are many ways we can observe small objects, like atoms and subatomic particles, and most do not include using our eyes other than to see the data readouts...

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #74 on: 18/05/2015 13:25:26 »