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Author Topic: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?  (Read 26699 times)

Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #75 on: 18/05/2015 13:34:56 »
Even though we cannot see an atom directly with our eyes, we have microscopes that allow us to "see" them--see here:

http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2012/09/17/another_one_of_those_startling_molecular_images.php
http://spie.org/x48127.xml
http://www.dmphotonics.com/Scanning_Probe_Microscopy/Atomic%20resolution%20on%20HOPG%20obtained%20with%20the%20100%20micron%20scanner.htm

Do you believe in the planet Neptune? There is no way you can see it from Earth unaided by any sort of technology, but we can see it with telescopes, have sent probes past it, and we could infer its existence by perturbations in Saturn's orbit.

There are many ways we can observe small objects, like atoms and subatomic particles, and most do not include using our eyes other than to see the data readouts...

You see an atom yes,as your links show evidence of, a particle X, but you not observe or see any components. This is conjecture is it not?

or can you provide a link to a Proton observation?
« Last Edit: 18/05/2015 13:43:15 by Thebox »
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #76 on: 18/05/2015 14:34:45 »
Catching fish with a rod and line is impossible.
To catch the fish the fisherman needs to observe the fish biting the bait and hooking on to the line. This cannot be observed underwater, away from the shore.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #77 on: 18/05/2015 17:12:54 »
Catching fish with a rod and line is impossible.
To catch the fish the fisherman needs to observe the fish biting the bait and hooking on to the line. This cannot be observed underwater, away from the shore.

We use information that when the line pulls we have a bite, I miss the part where this is related to seeing a Proton etc.

I understand I pose some difficult questions, but I am confident science can answer in full why something falls to the ground.

It should not be that difficult knowing atoms or particle X has mass .   It all happens at particle X. So tell me what happens, why do atoms come close together to form density?

Would something in an atom(s) be an attractive force to each other?

 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #78 on: 18/05/2015 22:32:42 »
We use information that when the line pulls we have a bite, I miss the part where this is related to seeing a Proton etc.
The point is that you are not seeing directly, you are using of an instrument to tell you what is happening.

, but you not observe or see any components. This is conjecture is it not?

or can you provide a link to a Proton observation?

The point is that you are using a common usage of observe, whereas in science an observation covers indirect observation by measurement eg voltage, charge, movement of charge, voltage on a detector, interaction with another particle, etc, etc.
All these measurements (observations) build up a description of a particle or process based on its properties. When these properties are measured ie observed, consistently, that set of properties is given a name eg proton, mass, etc.**
Measurements are important in science as they allow a better description than purely qualitative descriptions. They allow us to make predictions using maths that wordy descriptions do not.
Consistent mathematical predictions allow design of technology that pseudoscience does not.
Until you understand this you will never understand what science is saying and so reject it, then most conversations will be pointless.
This is what alancalverd was saying.
 
**[This is similar to observing a cow (except you experience it directly through eyes, touch, smell) there is a set of properties which we call a cow.]
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #79 on: 18/05/2015 23:10:46 »
If I were a philosopher (which thank the Lord I'm not, sir) I would say that you never observe a cow but only respond to the photons reflected from it. From which we can deduce that philosophers can't eat meat or drink milk because these are the products of something whose existence we can't actually observe.

The fact that philosophers don't starve to death clearly demonstrates that they don't take themselves seriously. Which is a pity because the world would be a better place if they did.
 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #80 on: 19/05/2015 01:52:16 »
You can use a cloud chamber to "see" subatomic particles, including protons. The nifty thing about this is that you (YOU) can build one at home!

Here is a link to a pdf that describes the background and has a how-to guide

http://xraise.classe.cornell.edu/document/cloudchamber.pdf

Proving the identity of the particles that this instrument detects requires a much more specialized instrument, but I guarantee that it is capable of detecting protons, electrons, alpha particles and more!

You can probably get dry ice at a local ice cream store. If not you can try the experiment with a slush of normal ice and isopropanol (the same liquid used to generate the vapors--rubbing alcohol)...
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #81 on: 19/05/2015 05:04:33 »
You can use a cloud chamber to "see" subatomic particles, including protons. The nifty thing about this is that you (YOU) can build one at home!
Wow, that's cool! Thanks for this, project for when granddaughter is a little older (I'll put it on ice for the moment).
Just located a dry ice source a few miles away, I wonder if freezer gel packs do,perhaps combined with the slush you describe? Not sure how cold it needs to be, maybe putting it in the freezer for a while would help?
« Last Edit: 19/05/2015 05:22:30 by Colin2B »
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #82 on: 19/05/2015 05:27:04 »
Quote from: alancalverd
If I were a philosopher (which thank the Lord I'm not, sir) I would say that you never observe a cow but only respond to the photons reflected from it. From which we can deduce that philosophers can't eat meat or drink milk because these are the products of something whose existence we can't actually observe.
Where did you ever get such an impression from, Alan? That's totally new to me. In fact I strongly disagree with this assertion. If a philosopher ever made such an assertion then I'd say that philosopher was a very poor philosopher.

Let's talk about what observation really means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observation
Quote
Observation is the active acquisition of information from a primary source.
Therefore observation of a cow means to collect information regarding the cow's presence. If one observes a cow only by sight then that completely entails the collection of light coming off the cow. So the cow is actually being observed when one "sees" the light coming off the cow.

You can read more about this here: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/science-theory-observation/#DatPhe
Quote
One answer to this question assumes that observation is a perceptual process so that to observe is to look at, listen to, touch, taste, or smell something, attending to details of the resulting perceptual experience.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #83 on: 19/05/2015 18:45:54 »
You can use a cloud chamber to "see" subatomic particles, including protons. The nifty thing about this is that you (YOU) can build one at home!

Here is a link to a pdf that describes the background and has a how-to guide

http://xraise.classe.cornell.edu/document/cloudchamber.pdf

Proving the identity of the particles that this instrument detects requires a much more specialized instrument, but I guarantee that it is capable of detecting protons, electrons, alpha particles and more!

You can probably get dry ice at a local ice cream store. If not you can try the experiment with a slush of normal ice and isopropanol (the same liquid used to generate the vapors--rubbing alcohol)...

Blimey.........

I am not in a position of enough knowledge of this to question this, so at this time I have to agree that you can observe Protons etc.

Maybe you are more advanced than I first thought.

I do not wish to get in a discussion of what observation means, it certainty is not just reflective light that would suggest a holographic Universe.  Also I can snap a branch of a tree and take it home, so I know the tree is real.

In your provided observation of atoms, where does it show you an electron or electron shell?

The glowing line spacing of the black dots? 

if so, how do you know the black dot is not emitting the line spacing?


PePePePe 


gravity   P><P


expansion of metals   +E=P>><<P=PeeeeP



where P is proton and e is electron field and E is energy and <> is direction

is this what happens in metal or gases?


Is P><P also related to the Proton-Proton chain?  (the sun version)

Also is matter a proton>><<proton hexagonal chain, like a bike chain.?






« Last Edit: 19/05/2015 19:08:24 by Thebox »
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #84 on: 19/05/2015 23:13:13 »
If not you can try the experiment with a slush of normal ice and isopropanol (the same liquid used to generate the vapors--rubbing alcohol)...

How well does that work compared to dry ice?
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #85 on: 20/05/2015 09:23:52 »
In your provided observation of atoms, where does it show you an electron or electron shell?

The glowing line spacing of the black dots? 

if so, how do you know the black dot is not emitting the line spacing
............ Etc
This reminds me of a conversation between our children when the youngest was 7. The older ones were learning about DNA and discussing a diagram, she had been following intently and suddenly asked "how do they get the little letters on the genes?". There was silence for a moment, then she discovered that siblings, like forum members, can be very direct at times.
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #86 on: 20/05/2015 11:15:09 »
Quote from: TheBox
In your provided observation of atoms, where does it show you an electron or electron shell?
When you observe hot atoms through a spectroscope, you see a pattern of bright lines. These bright lines are light of different frequencies, which have different energies. These gave early indications that electrons in the atom had different energy levels.
This technique was developed by Fraunhofer in the early 1800s.

Quote from: TheBox
You see an atom yes, ...but you do not observe or see any components.
Two components of an atom can be distinguished fairly easily (with technology from the early 1900s):
  • The electrons interact with light (see above), and they shield the internal positive nucleus
  • The positive nucleus is very small compared to the whole atom, and carries an intense positive charge
  • This was demonstrated by Geiger, Marsden & Rutherford, in 1913.
  • The outer electrons interact with light of various wavelengths, in the visible, ultraviolet or infra-red range.
  • In contrast, the much higher energies found in the nucleus result in emission of electromagnetic energy in the gamma-ray region of the spectrum
  • Modern MRI machines work by manipulating the spin of the nucleus of the atoms in your body. Different atoms can be observed using different frequencies and different magnetic fields.

 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #87 on: 20/05/2015 12:31:26 »

Therefore observation of a cow means to collect information regarding the cow's presence. If one observes a cow only by sight then that completely entails the collection of light coming off the cow. So the cow is actually being observed when one "sees" the light coming off the cow.



Being a physicist and not a philosopher, I offer you a bunch of photons reflected from a cow, and another group of photons from a really good hologram of a cow. Did you observe the cow? How do you know? Then a really clever neurologist triggers the memory of a cow in your brain, and the question becomes even more complicated.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #88 on: 20/05/2015 13:01:40 »
Quote from: alancalverd
Being a physicist and not a philosopher, I offer you a bunch of photons reflected from a cow, and another group of photons from a really good hologram of a cow. Did you observe the cow? How do you know? Then a really clever neurologist triggers the memory of a cow in your brain, and the question becomes even more complicated.
There's a difference between the necessary and the sufficient conditions of seeing a cow. The necessary condition is seeing the photons. That's hardly sufficient reason to assert that the cow is there.

So if a cow emits photons and I see them then I'm seeing a cow. The converse is not true. That I see photons that look like a cow it doesn't mean that there's a cow there.

Recall what I said - The cow is actually being observed when one "sees" the light coming off the cow.

This can't be taken to imply that the converse is true, i.e. that if one sees light coming from what appears to be a cow that one is actually seeing a cow.

Understand my point now?
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #89 on: 20/05/2015 14:32:55 »
Peter: Next time I'm in New England, we'll count the angels on a pinhead, using a beer glass as a bubble chamber. Better yet, we'll take the average of several beer glasses. It's not often I get to acknowledge a superior nitpicker!
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #90 on: 20/05/2015 14:52:03 »
Quote from: alancalverd
Peter: Next time I'm in New England, we'll count the angels on a pinhead, using a beer glass as a bubble chamber. Better yet, we'll take the average of several beer glasses. It's not often I get to acknowledge a superior nitpicker!
Sometimes I can't tell whether you're trying to make a joke or whether you're trying to insult me. This is a good example.

This is an important point to make about what constitutes observation in physics and the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions for determining whether something is true or not. So its far from nitpicking.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #91 on: 20/05/2015 15:48:38 »
I never joke about beer. And being British, I only insult my best friends.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #92 on: 20/05/2015 17:01:52 »
I never joke about beer. And being British, I only insult my best friends.

ALL SCIENTISTS DO THAT
 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #93 on: 20/05/2015 19:02:15 »
If not you can try the experiment with a slush of normal ice and isopropanol (the same liquid used to generate the vapors--rubbing alcohol)...

How well does that work compared to dry ice?

I don't know how well the slush works compared to the dry ice, but it should suffice. The temperature gradient across the apparatus is the important thing here. Dry ice will get you down to about 75 C whereas the isopropanol slush will only get down to about 20 C or so. Not nearly as cold, so the position at which the cloud forms within the apparatus will be lower in the slush version than with the dry ice, but a little finagling should allow it to work...
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #94 on: 20/05/2015 19:07:47 »
Quote from: TheBox
In your provided observation of atoms, where does it show you an electron or electron shell?
When you observe hot atoms through a spectroscope, you see a pattern of bright lines. These bright lines are light of different frequencies, which have different energies. These gave early indications that electrons in the atom had different energy levels.
This technique was developed by Fraunhofer in the early 1800s.

Quote from: TheBox
You see an atom yes, ...but you do not observe or see any components.
Two components of an atom can be distinguished fairly easily (with technology from the early 1900s):
  • The electrons interact with light (see above), and they shield the internal positive nucleus
  • The positive nucleus is very small compared to the whole atom, and carries an intense positive charge
  • This was demonstrated by Geiger, Marsden & Rutherford, in 1913.
  • The outer electrons interact with light of various wavelengths, in the visible, ultraviolet or infra-red range.
  • In contrast, the much higher energies found in the nucleus result in emission of electromagnetic energy in the gamma-ray region of the spectrum
  • Modern MRI machines work by manipulating the spin of the nucleus of the atoms in your body. Different atoms can be observed using different frequencies and different magnetic fields.


Thank you for taking time to post this information.

''these bright lines are light of different frequencies, which have different energies. These gave early indications that electrons in the atom had different energy levels.''


Hot atoms!  so by thermodynamics they increase their energy entropy and release heat, light, radiation to maintain an energy equilibrium.  The more gain of energy the more release of energy. 

Would that be a true statement?

How would this differ from your spectroscope observation, bright variable frequency light lines?

One seems like the other to me, and seemingly the black dot emits the radiated energy , electromagnetic wave?

Why is it presumed the other way and an electron is attached to a Proton, or are you saying that the black dot is the electron shell?

In a weird sense, could Protons attract to a proton, and compress and capture Photons/EM radiation between them?

P>emr<P








« Last Edit: 20/05/2015 19:13:12 by Thebox »
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #95 on: 21/05/2015 12:59:27 »
Quote from: TheBox
spectroscope observation (of) bright variable frequency light lines?
The effect of spectral lines which move over time is seen when two stars orbit each other. With these "spectroscopic binaries", the star moves towards and away from us as it orbits its companion. This causes the spectral lines to become more red and then more blue, periodically.

With large telescopes and very precise specroscopes, it is even possible to detect the small motion of a star due to the orbit of planets around that star.
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #96 on: 21/05/2015 17:04:29 »
I don't know how well the slush works compared to the dry ice, but it should suffice. The temperature gradient across the apparatus is the important thing here. Dry ice will get you down to about 75 C whereas the isopropanol slush will only get down to about 20 C or so. Not nearly as cold, so the position at which the cloud forms within the apparatus will be lower in the slush version than with the dry ice, but a little finagling should allow it to work...

Thanks for the info - I think I understand how it works now, and what's needed to improve the functionality of it. Perhaps an old fire extinguisher (that probably still works but needs to be replaced) could be used to cool ordinary ice down further. I had always thought the presence of lots of vapour off the dry ice was key to it working, but it appears that that isn't the case - it now looks as if it's all about providing a low temperature and having warmer air containing water as a gas that's supercooled and just waiting to turn liquid as soon as something triggers it to do so. The less vapour there is, the better it should show up when a vapour trail appears.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #97 on: 22/05/2015 18:36:53 »
Quote from: TheBox
spectroscope observation (of) bright variable frequency light lines?
The effect of spectral lines which move over time is seen when two stars orbit each other. With these "spectroscopic binaries", the star moves towards and away from us as it orbits its companion. This causes the spectral lines to become more red and then more blue, periodically.

With large telescopes and very precise specroscopes, it is even possible to detect the small motion of a star due to the orbit of planets around that star.


I do not know how or why we went from atoms to stars but I am familiar with light red shift and blue shift between the stars, Doppler shift.

An object moving away from light, will red shift, an object travelling towards the light will blue shift.

As you already may be aware, I consider this an equal and opposite reaction,

I consider red shift is the force surface pressure of EMR decreasing and blue shift to be a force surface pressure of EMR increase of the object.

Showing a blue spectral frequency of a more compressed wavelength of light, and a red longer wavelength, velocity of the object defining the force compression on the surface of object by the EMR.

This is the reason I believe the sky is blue and also a red sky at night,

I see a red sky at night , the sun is going down , away from me, as the sun moves away from me, I am also moving away from the Sun. 

Would this work when comparing  earth and sun orbit?



 

Offline jccc

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #98 on: 22/05/2015 19:12:59 »
yes, earth rotation will cause light color shift, we know earth rotation speed, we can compare the sunlight shift degree with star light shift degree to calculate the expending speed of the star.
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
« Reply #99 on: 23/05/2015 18:01:26 »
This is the reason I believe the sky is blue and also a red sky at night,

I see a red sky at night , the sun is going down , away from me, as the sun moves away from me, I am also moving away from the Sun.

Are you moving away from the sun at sunset? Yes. Are you moving towards it at sunrise? Yes. So, the sky should start blue (no red skies in the morning), then it should be greeen by the middle of the day, then it should be red every evening. Is that what you see? How fast would the Earth have to rotate in order to create such visible shifts in frequency? Think it through.
« Last Edit: 23/05/2015 18:03:58 by David Cooper »
 

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Re: What makes an object or a medium fall to the ground?
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