# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.  (Read 5170 times)

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #25 on: 14/05/2015 19:17:23 »
a spaceship travels 100 mile into space and back again, a caesium clock on the spaceship shows an arbitrary time dilation. the distance of 100 miles is a constant, c does not alter over that constant.

This also shows arbitrary time  is dependent to an observer or object.
I don't know why you think I agree with you. I don't think you really read my posts.

The effect we call time dilation is not arbitrary, it is real. The travelling twin is really younger on return. The distance is not 100miles for the traveller, that's why it takes less time to travel that you would expect.
As has been said before, caesium has nothing to do with it.

Your attempt to define time as arbitrary is pointless, no physicist considers it to be absolute. Your attempt to define it as distance is also pointless. As has been said before you do not understanding measurement, how could you, you don't even understand numbers. That time is arbitrary is even understood by the general population, here when it is midday the French call it 1pm, in New York they would say 7am; this is why we define UTC for when it is important to translate between time zones.  At one point the French even tried to introduce the 10 hour day.
This has been discussed before, however to reiterate, both temperature and pressure are measured as a distance of mercury, this does not make them a distance. Temperature scales are arbitrary, this is why at least 8 exist. With temperature we are usually specific if we are talking about a point on the scale, or a change. With time colloquial usage allows the same term for both. When measuring speed we take the distance traveled divided by the time taken to travel that distance, usually written x/t, distance over time. Strictly speaking we should say change of distance over change of time dx/dt and physicists often do this when necessary. Note that I say change of distance, because distance is always measured from a reference point (which is usually implied to be point 0), however again common usage allows us to refer to the change of distance as plain distance and no one is pedantic enough to argue the point - I'm surprised you haven't.
This measurement of time is extremely useful and is essential to the work of Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Faraday, etc. This is the difference between science and pseudoscience, the former is useful, it makes predictions and allows us to design systems which work. It does not imply anything about what time is as a fundamental concept, it does not need to. That is the role of philosophy and theoretical physics, and there are far more ideas on the nature of time than the limited one you allude to.

Your pointless arguments are obscure, and detract from, the ideas I think you really want to make. You present them in a confused terminology, with an affected street talk, never focused and coherent. If you presented them in a clear manner, without the confused wording and background agenda, you would find more people agreeing with you in some areas. These ideas are not new to science or philosophy, but science has dealt with them and moved on. Reread ChiralSPO's post #17, try to understand what he is saying rather than misinterpreting it, it is an important message.

As you insist on misinterpreting my posts, I see no point in writing them.

Apologies I put you name instead of David.

this quote

''We all know, and he knows, that it is impossible to provide evidence for something which does not happen. A caesium clock DOES NOT affect time, never has, never does, never will.''

quoting you

''Your attempt to define it as distance is also pointless. ''  I never define it as a distance, I define c . the speed of light over a distance which is always a constant.

You really should think about what I write, 100 mile round trip, the clock shows a time dilation, light does not alter a round trip.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #26 on: 14/05/2015 19:23:07 »
A rocket travels  at c , a 1000 mile round trip, a clock on board shows a time dilation, the velocity is constant over a distance.

one ship goes south  and one ship goes north, both show a time dilation, c does not alter

Look at this below

x
.
.
.
.
.
.
y...........................................c

x is our rocket ship flying left to right following firstly a curvature and then secondly a zig zag path.

our light clock times the event.   and the photon travels left to right and back again at c.

at y is a caesium clock, on x is also a caesium clock, x shows a dilation of ''time''

y=t at a constant.

x moves to y1, x then moves to x9y2, the distance from x-y decreases,

x then moves to x8y3, the distance to y decreases,

x then moves to x10y4, the distance from y increases.

1cm³ space, light travels from all corner points to a joining corner point and back again.

Anything inside the volume of 1cm³  can not alter this constant.

all 8 dimensional points a constant, space time, the ninth dimensional point arbitrary time that is centralised

Notice we do not add interference of mirrors, human observer effect, because while the sun emits light towards the stars, the stars emit light towards the sun, and all the light travels at the same speed.

You turn on a lamp, the light expansion is twice the speed of light.

c<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<lamp>>>>>>>>>>>>>>c

In fact it is isotropic, light expands at c*4/3πr3 from the ninth dimension

matter, the ninth dimension, emits light isotropically, light can pass through light undetected in space visually unless by interaction such as a rainbow.

and in honesty I have no idea why I just had these thoughts, something I have read a bit of has sparked my thoughts.

added - something to do with us moving faster than or slower than the speed of light, or because we block the light, and light slows down when we block it and the rest of the light passes us by at the speed of light.

matter slows down light to specific spectral range.....while c flies past.

matter light is negative, star light is positive, when I push you , your matter light repels my matter light...

« Last Edit: 14/05/2015 20:46:08 by Thebox »

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #27 on: 15/05/2015 00:19:44 »
Quote
A rocket travels  at c , a 1000 mile round trip, a clock on board shows a time dilation, the velocity is constant over a distance.

Velocity cannot be constant for a round trip, by definition.

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #28 on: 15/05/2015 00:31:15 »
Quote
A rocket travels  at c , a 1000 mile round trip, a clock on board shows a time dilation, the velocity is constant over a distance.

Velocity cannot be constant for a round trip, by definition.
I've lost the plot here Alan, nothing he's saying makes sense:
"light does not alter a round trip, 9th dimension, turn on a lamp,  light expansion is twice the speed of light etc"
He's having us on, troll or taking substance.
I'm wasting my time, better things to do.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #29 on: 15/05/2015 18:09:15 »
Quote
A rocket travels  at c , a 1000 mile round trip, a clock on board shows a time dilation, the velocity is constant over a distance.

Velocity cannot be constant for a round trip, by definition.

My error sorry , I have used velocity again in the wrong context.   I understand my error, velocity a change in speed or direction.

Sorry I was thinking a bit lazy again.

The speed is constant of light in a round trip. (and considering light from different directions).

Imagine 8 suns that make up the 8 points of a box.   example - 299792458m³

(a)......................(b)
.
.
(c)......................(d)

but 3 dimensional of cause.

a-b and a-c are the same distance, it is a cube.

Each point of the cube is a dimension starting orientation with the value zero point space.

From all 8 points travels a photon to an adjoining zero point space.

It takes 1 second to travel the distance to another point.

This is constant, and a very accurate clock.

Inside of the space cube is matter,the 9th dimension, all the matter moves about, but nothing inside of the cube being matter effects the constant clock.

zig zag all you like , curve as much as you like inside of the space cube, the constant time does not alter in any dimension.

The twin who returns from space as not aged less, both twins timing of their age remains at a constant and remains the same, however the twin who returned from space , had a slower ''metabolic decay'' of himself and will live slightly longer than is twin.

« Last Edit: 15/05/2015 18:18:37 by Thebox »

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #30 on: 15/05/2015 19:38:06 »
Sorry, mate, this is incoherent bullshit. Don't expect any further input from me.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #31 on: 15/05/2015 20:12:23 »
Sorry, mate, this is incoherent bullshit. Don't expect any further input from me.

Its not mate , think about it, draw a cube, on each point put a sun that emits light that travels a constant of 299792458m/s  or 1 light second.

299792458m³ space contains say an earth a sun and a flying aeroplane with Keating onboard with his clock. also is einstein firing lasers in a zig zag fashion, neither effect the constant time of light.

xyz being one dimensional view of space, xyz*8 equals a box

« Last Edit: 15/05/2015 20:18:17 by Thebox »

#### David Cooper

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #32 on: 15/05/2015 21:30:13 »
The twin who returns from space as not aged less, both twins timing of their age remains at a constant and remains the same, however the twin who returned from space , had a slower ''metabolic decay'' of himself and will live slightly longer than is twin.

That bit isn't bullsh**. The travelling twin has moved through less "time" of the "time" dimension, but has gone through just as much time of the Newtonian time which works along with the "time" dimension in order to co-ordinate the unfolding of events on different paths through Spacetime. The problem is that so people deny that a Newtonian time needs to be added to the model to make SR/GR work correctly because they are happy to work with a version of a theory which has a logical hole in it.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #33 on: 17/05/2015 17:47:57 »
The twin who returns from space as not aged less, both twins timing of their age remains at a constant and remains the same, however the twin who returned from space , had a slower ''metabolic decay'' of himself and will live slightly longer than is twin.

That bit isn't bullsh**. The travelling twin has moved through less "time" of the "time" dimension, but has gone through just as much time of the Newtonian time which works along with the "time" dimension in order to co-ordinate the unfolding of events on different paths through Spacetime. The problem is that so people deny that a Newtonian time needs to be added to the model to make SR/GR work correctly because they are happy to work with a version of a theory which has a logical hole in it.

Dude no, The travelling twin has moved through the exact same amount of space -time ,  but a differential amount of arbitrary time to his dependent time and his twin brothers dependent time,

example

twin 1 (t=123456789)

twin 2 (t=12345678)

twin 1 and 2 (space-time=0 to infinite)

It is much easier to consider our time, existence , to be an allotted amount of time occupying space-time.

There is 2 times.

#### David Cooper

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #34 on: 17/05/2015 19:24:24 »
Dude no, The travelling twin has moved through the exact same amount of space -time ,  but a differential amount of arbitrary time to his dependent time and his twin brothers dependent time,

The travelling twin has moved through less of the "time" dimension kind of time, so you're wrong. If you're trying to describe things through some theory other than Einstein's though, don't use anything resembling the term Spacetime because that makes it look as if you're working with a model in which there is a "time" dimension, and if you are, the travelling twin is moving through less of that kind of time.

Quote
example

twin 1 (t=123456789)

twin 2 (t=12345678)

If that's for a round trip, their clocks will record identical times and you are not working with this universe at all.

Quote
It is much easier to consider our time, existence , to be an allotted amount of time occupying space-time.

The main choices are to have a Newtonian time with at least three space dimensions (as in LET); Spacetime with at least three space dimensions and one "time" dimension (as in SR/GR); or Spacetime with at least three space dimensions, one "time" dimension and a Newtonian time that works in combination with it (as in a more rational, modified version of SR/GR in which a universe can actually develop and mesh correctly).

Quote
There is 2 times.

There are 2 times in just one of those models, but only one in the others. You may have another model in mind, of course, but it appears to be broken because your including Spacetime in it (in name only) without really including Spacetime in it at all.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #35 on: 17/05/2015 21:09:22 »
Dude no, The travelling twin has moved through the exact same amount of space -time ,  but a differential amount of arbitrary time to his dependent time and his twin brothers dependent time,

The travelling twin has moved through less of the "time" dimension kind of time, so you're wrong. If you're trying to describe things through some theory other than Einstein's though, don't use anything resembling the term Spacetime because that makes it look as if you're working with a model in which there is a "time" dimension, and if you are, the travelling twin is moving through less of that kind of time.

Quote
example

twin 1 (t=123456789)

twin 2 (t=12345678)

If that's for a round trip, their clocks will record identical times and you are not working with this universe at all.

Quote
It is much easier to consider our time, existence , to be an allotted amount of time occupying space-time.

The main choices are to have a Newtonian time with at least three space dimensions (as in LET); Spacetime with at least three space dimensions and one "time" dimension (as in SR/GR); or Spacetime with at least three space dimensions, one "time" dimension and a Newtonian time that works in combination with it (as in a more rational, modified version of SR/GR in which a universe can actually develop and mesh correctly).

Quote
There is 2 times.

There are 2 times in just one of those models, but only one in the others. You may have another model in mind, of course, but it appears to be broken because your including Spacetime in it (in name only) without really including Spacetime in it at all.

How did we get here from Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.

Oh well alls good,

I say space time, to try and get understanding although it may add confusion.  I will call it ''zero point space time.''  I have tried to explain this before.

The box I earlier mentioned, 8 dimensions of zero point space time with a value of zero. (zero is really a dot that is not a dot because it is not really there).

Also each and every point , is also the ninth dimension.  being central in a cube but also one of the 8 dimensions.

ok so far?

#### David Cooper

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #36 on: 17/05/2015 23:50:06 »
I'm not even going to attempt to understand it.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #37 on: 18/05/2015 09:26:57 »
I'm not even going to attempt to understand it.

I will simplify

You are the 9th dimension, all matter is the 9th dimension, you look out into the Universe, you look out to the other 8 dimensions, the corners of the virtual box you are inside.

However, each corner of the box is also the 9th dimension, because if you was there on the corner looking toward the earth, you would still be within the other 8 dimensions and  also in  a virtual new box.

.....t.....
.....t.....
ttttt0ttttt
.....t.....
.....t.....

0 point space is an intersection of ''time''  that has no value, space made to a singular point of all of space as whole at any time.

O in the digram is the dimension X.    1 dimensional view isotropically

A 3 dimensional cube made up of points, ................................................................., that are not really points because they are 0 point space, I can not draw this because it is emptiness, a void.

matter gives value to the space

........0................0...........0...........0

matter also moves through zero point space.

...............o.o...............o..............................................................o

and instantaneous occupies new space.

From the inside you look out, but from the outside you look out from the inside.

« Last Edit: 18/05/2015 09:42:41 by Thebox »

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #38 on: 18/05/2015 09:37:49 »
I'm not even going to attempt to understand it.
I will simplify

There you are David. Couldn't be simpler than that!

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #39 on: 18/05/2015 10:21:39 »
I'm not even going to attempt to understand it.
I will simplify

There you are David. Couldn't be simpler than that!

and not forgetting that from any corner to corner is equal in time and distance verified by the speed of light constant.

Showing that the Keating experiment shows an dependent timing dilation to the object that does not effect zero point space-time.

Because time is a dependent instantaneous moment of zero point space-time that you pass through.

« Last Edit: 18/05/2015 10:30:26 by Thebox »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #40 on: 18/05/2015 10:46:04 »
Quote
the Caesium clock is arbitrary , no different to a wall clock.

Wrong. The mechanism of an atomic clock is unaffected by acceleration, whcih is why they are used to measure time whenever we need to take account of relativistic effects.

You cannot measure other people's knowledge and experience against your ignorance and prejudice. The axes are orthogonal.

The Caesium clock is still an arbitrary clock, 1 second on a Caesium clock is equal to one second on a wall clock.   Gravity effects the Caesium clock, you want proof?

put a Caesium clock on the moon and observe how slow the clock ''ticks'' then.

I will time the clock on the moon and the clock on earth with my box light clock, placing both Caesium clocks inside the box. I observe no time dilation from any space dimension.  I observe a timing fluctuation created by gravity displacement of mass dependent to the object.

#### David Cooper

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #41 on: 18/05/2015 17:12:33 »
I'm not even going to attempt to understand it.
I will simplify
There you are David. Couldn't be simpler than that!

Yes, well I understand now why he calls himself Thebox. I had been thinking more along the lines of cricket until now.

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #42 on: 18/05/2015 22:38:24 »
Yes, well I understand now why he calls himself Thebox. I had been thinking more along the lines of cricket until now.
Got you stumped has he?
Now what are all those round things they throw ........

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: Psuedo science treated as fact bad science.
« Reply #42 on: 18/05/2015 22:38:24 »