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Author Topic: What is science fact, not fiction?  (Read 13286 times)

Offline Thebox

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What is science fact, not fiction?
« on: 24/05/2015 23:28:18 »
Hello all, I though this would be the correct section to start a science fact thread of Physics.

I am not a scientist and wondered if some kind Physicists could post a list of all true Physical facts, the facts that have factual evidence to back it up.

I will start with a few I do know, please correct me if I state fact that is not fact.

1)gravity exists

2)matter  exists

3)force exists

4)energy exists

5)space exists

6)atoms exist

anything to add please?

and could we remove 1 and 2 from the list , gravity being a force and matter being atoms?





« Last Edit: 25/05/2015 11:13:27 by chris »


 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: science fact not fiction
« Reply #1 on: 24/05/2015 23:37:28 »
The universe exists and we observe stuff happening. We invent very precise concepts (like gravity) and parameters (like force) to help us predict what will happen next. And some of us get very annoyed when others misuse our precise language and ignore the obvious.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: science fact not fiction
« Reply #2 on: 24/05/2015 23:52:01 »
The universe exists and we observe stuff happening. We invent very precise concepts (like gravity) and parameters (like force) to help us predict what will happen next. And some of us get very annoyed when others misuse our precise language and ignore the obvious.

Firstly I was generalising factual topics, gravity comes under force?  matter is made of atoms.

1)force exists

2)energy exists

3)space exists

4)atoms exist

is there any other facts in generalisation of things?

added - force can not exist by itself?

so....

1)energy exists

2)space exists

3)atoms exist

anything else in general?

sorry guys im mucking it up,

does energy exist on itself?

so....in general

1)atoms
2)space


is there anything else?





« Last Edit: 25/05/2015 00:06:00 by Thebox »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: science fact not fiction
« Reply #3 on: 25/05/2015 08:41:50 »
Once you start asking questions instead of making statements, things get interesting!

"Energy exists"? Well, kind of.... We observe that in any interaction, a mathematical parameter is conserved. If we add up all the numbers  by which we define potential, kinetic and heat energy, for instance, we can predict the stopping distance of a car, and we say that the mechanism of stopping is that its kinetic energy is converted to heat by the brakes. Or if we introduce regenerative braking we can calculate the electrical energy that is returned to the battery and once again the equations balance and the measurements concur with expectations. But does energy have any existence independent of a material system? Not if you include photons as "material" - it is a parameter of change.

Gravity is a weird conundrum, at least in the classical world. Why do things attract each other if they have no electric or magnetic field, but the force-distance relationship is the same as for an electric or magnetic field, and indeed the same as a radiation intensity/distance relationship, though we haven't detected any particle exchange? Why no repulsive force? Relativistic mathematics gives us a consistent predictor in terms of space-time warping that neatly applies also to massless entities (photons) and works for very small and very large objects, from laboratory measurements to the structure of galaxies, so gravity is the name of a universal process that explains a lot but is not itself explained.

Atoms exist? Yes. Years ago, when the European Union was tying itself in knots (at your expense) to define a medical device (so European manufacturers can charge you more for their products), a surgeon friend said "it's anything you can hit with a golf club that can be used to heal the sick."  Well you can hit an atom with a golf club and use it to make a molecule or an ion, so they exist.

"Space" is the bit between atoms. So if atoms exist and they aren't all stuck together, space exists. And before anyone witters on about the nonexistence of a perfect vacuum, think about styrofoam. Define styrofoam as the stuff between the eggs in a carton of eggs. Now take away some of the eggs. Yes, styrofoam still exists. 
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: science fact not fiction
« Reply #4 on: 25/05/2015 08:57:39 »
Once you start asking questions instead of making statements, things get interesting!

"Energy exists"? Well, kind of.... We observe that in any interaction, a mathematical parameter is conserved. If we add up all the numbers  by which we define potential, kinetic and heat energy, for instance, we can predict the stopping distance of a car, and we say that the mechanism of stopping is that its kinetic energy is converted to heat by the brakes. Or if we introduce regenerative braking we can calculate the electrical energy that is returned to the battery and once again the equations balance and the measurements concur with expectations. But does energy have any existence independent of a material system? Not if you include photons as "material" - it is a parameter of change.

Gravity is a weird conundrum, at least in the classical world. Why do things attract each other if they have no electric or magnetic field, but the force-distance relationship is the same as for an electric or magnetic field, and indeed the same as a radiation intensity/distance relationship, though we haven't detected any particle exchange? Why no repulsive force? Relativistic mathematics gives us a consistent predictor in terms of space-time warping that neatly applies also to massless entities (photons) and works for very small and very large objects, from laboratory measurements to the structure of galaxies, so gravity is the name of a universal process that explains a lot but is not itself explained.

Atoms exist? Yes. Years ago, when the European Union was tying itself in knots (at your expense) to define a medical device (so European manufacturers can charge you more for their products), a surgeon friend said "it's anything you can hit with a golf club that can be used to heal the sick."  Well you can hit an atom with a golf club and use it to make a molecule or an ion, so they exist.

"Space" is the bit between atoms. So if atoms exist and they aren't all stuck together, space exists. And before anyone witters on about the nonexistence of a perfect vacuum, think about styrofoam. Define styrofoam as the stuff between the eggs in a carton of eggs. Now take away some of the eggs. Yes, styrofoam still exists.

Thank you Alan for the great post, the reason I started this thread is so I can get all the true facts in one ''basket''.

Am I correct in thinking that the Universe is space and matter, and fundamentally without space , matter could not exist, and without matter, force and energy could not exist?

But in saying that, if energy did not exists as an entity, how can we have matter in the first place when all matter contains potential energy?



P.S science is the best puzzle in the Universe.

added - Einstein states that E=mc˛ 

How do you have energy with no matter in the first place?  E=? (what started the big bang)

or how do you have matter with no energy in the first place?

added - I have just realised that I have just asked an impossible to answer question sorry

so moving on are we agreed that factual and reality,  that all that really exists as entities are


1)space
2)energy?  ( I have put a question mark for this, it is hard to prove an existence of as an entity),
3)atoms

And would  the numbered order be a generalised order of events?







« Last Edit: 25/05/2015 09:49:40 by Thebox »
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: science fact not fiction
« Reply #5 on: 25/05/2015 11:09:01 »
Quote from: TheBox
all that really exists as entities are... 3)atoms
I agree that at the temperature and density with which we are most familiar, most matter is in the form of atoms, which mostly combine into molecules - solid, liquid or gas.

However, most of the matter in the solar system is not at temperatures and pressures with which we are familiar - in fact the bulk of it is in the Sun, which is a plasma consisting primarily of protons and electrons (plus some helium nuclei and other impurities thrown in).

So, in the bigger picture, atoms are not a major component of our Solar System neighbourhood.

And the main way we know about the Sun is because of the light which it emits - but light is mysteriously missing from the shortlist...
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: science fact not fiction
« Reply #6 on: 25/05/2015 12:47:46 »
Quote from: TheBox
all that really exists as entities are... 3)atoms
I agree that at the temperature and density with which we are most familiar, most matter is in the form of atoms, which mostly combine into molecules - solid, liquid or gas.

However, most of the matter in the solar system is not at temperatures and pressures with which we are familiar - in fact the bulk of it is in the Sun, which is a plasma consisting primarily of protons and electrons (plus some helium nuclei and other impurities thrown in).

So, in the bigger picture, atoms are not a major component of our Solar System neighbourhood.

And the main way we know about the Sun is because of the light which it emits - but light is mysteriously missing from the shortlist...

Great logic, I agree that atoms are further down the list.  I did not put light on the short list, because light is a product rather than an elementary part of the picture.

So we have this as fundamental fact

1)space
2)elementary particle(s)
3)energy?

Would this be the complete factual generalised short list?

and everything else expands from this?
« Last Edit: 25/05/2015 13:03:14 by Thebox »
 

Offline jccc

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #7 on: 25/05/2015 13:55:31 »
charges carry force

charges form atom

gravity is net charge force between matter

light is gravity/em force wave

you and i are connected by gravity

small attraction but last forever

charges unbalance cause emotion
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #8 on: 25/05/2015 14:21:59 »
I did not put light on the short list, because light is a product rather than an elementary part of the picture.

So we have this as fundamental fact

1)space
2)elementary particle(s)
3)energy?
 

Hmm. Light is electromagnetic radiation and since E = mc2, energy is at least as fundamental as mass. If anything, more so as the lightest massive particle, the electron, has a rest mass energy of 511,000 eV but we can detect photons with energies of a fraction of an eV.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #9 on: 25/05/2015 14:58:14 »
I did not put light on the short list, because light is a product rather than an elementary part of the picture.

So we have this as fundamental fact

1)space
2)elementary particle(s)
3)energy?
 

Hmm. Light is electromagnetic radiation and since E = mc2, energy is at least as fundamental as mass. If anything, more so as the lightest massive particle, the electron, has a rest mass energy of 511,000 eV but we can detect photons with energies of a fraction of an eV.

I agree light is electromagnetic radiation, but is EMR not produced rather than being an entity, can EMR exist without a source?
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #10 on: 25/05/2015 16:01:45 »
Cosmic background microwave radiation seems to predate the rest of the observable universe. 
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #11 on: 25/05/2015 18:23:33 »
Cosmic background microwave radiation seems to predate the rest of the observable universe.

Yes indeed and CBMR can be detected as light, however does CMBR not come under energy?

Is CBMR the fabric of space, the Aether ?
« Last Edit: 25/05/2015 18:27:29 by Thebox »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #12 on: 26/05/2015 19:11:36 »
So moving on, and sorry for the awkward question before, starting to expand the short list, I would like to know what actual and real facts do we know about space itself, and what do we observe to be facts of space,  I will start with a well known fact-

 that space is the gaps between matter. We call this a distance.

Fact , also space allows things to pass through it.

fact-space has no physical body

fact-space can not be destroyed and only occupied

That is all I know of space that exists, can anyone add any more facts of space?



« Last Edit: 26/05/2015 19:15:20 by Thebox »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #13 on: 26/05/2015 19:36:31 »

Is CBMR the fabric of space, the Aether ?


Space being the bit between stuff, it cannot have a fabric.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #14 on: 26/05/2015 19:50:31 »

Is CBMR the fabric of space, the Aether ?


Space being the bit between stuff, it cannot have a fabric.

So would you agree that factual, space is just emptiness?

The question is not related to things in space, like air or emr, just space, a void.

added -

fact - space has no directions?

fact-space has no mass?

fact - humanity can only observe has far as vanishing points of matter in space?



« Last Edit: 26/05/2015 19:56:29 by Thebox »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #15 on: 26/05/2015 19:57:09 »
It's the definition of space.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #16 on: 26/05/2015 20:07:03 »
It's the definition of space.

Yes emptiness,

so is it fact or not fact that there is time in space?

fact or fiction that space does not have dimensions? (dimensions man made add ons).

How can emptiness without Physical body that can not be destroyed, have any sort of existence of a time?

space has nothing to curve? (excluding energy and matter)

« Last Edit: 26/05/2015 20:18:41 by Thebox »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #17 on: 26/05/2015 23:44:59 »
The Free dictionary defines time thus

Quote
a. A nonspatial continuum in which events occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future.
b. An interval separating two points on this continuum;

If two photons pass through a bit of space in succession, you have defined time in space.
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #18 on: 27/05/2015 16:56:46 »
I will start with a well known fact-

 that space is the gaps between matter. We call this a distance.

Don't equate space with distance, or with volume. Space is space and it is still space when it's occupied by matter.

Quote
fact-space has no physical body

Space may be as physical as everything else.

Quote
fact-space can not be destroyed and only occupied

If the universe is expanding, it is possible that space is being created, and that would suggest it can also be destroyed.

Quote
Is CBMR the fabric of space, the Aether ?

No - it's just light moving through space which has been stretched into microwaves by the expansion of space.

Quote
Quote
Space being the bit between stuff, it cannot have a fabric

So would you agree that factual, space is just emptiness?

Alan's assertion is not justified - he cannot prove space has no fabric.

Quote
fact - space has no directions?

Space has properties which maintain directions through its fabric.

Quote
fact-space has no mass?

Unknown - if it all had mass it should try to collapse together, but that could be cancelled out by dark energy.

Quote
fact - humanity can only observe has far as vanishing points of matter in space?

We can observe as far as it is possible for light to reach here from, and no further, but the presence of matter there is not relevant - we can observe a lack of matter.

Quote
so is it fact or not fact that there is time in space?

I know you're keen on the idea of empty space having no time, but there is no empty space - there's stuff going on everywhere all the time. Even if there was empty space though, removing time from it would necessarily remove existence from it too, so it would disappear and the universe would shrink down wherever space is empty to eliminate all the gaps - that would be necessary if empty space was nothing, because nothing cannot have any properties of maintaining distances.

Quote
fact or fiction that space does not have dimensions? (dimensions man made add ons).

The fabric of space has dimensions and may impose the same limitations on all of its content, unless parts of the content can stick outside in other dimensions, in which case there would need to be an external fabric of external space within which the inner fabric resides.

Quote
How can emptiness without Physical body that can not be destroyed, have any sort of existence of a time?

It can't - that's why there must be a fabric.

Quote
space has nothing to curve? (excluding energy and matter)

A fabric can be curved. A space with no fabric cannot do anything - not even contain matter.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #19 on: 27/05/2015 17:05:31 »
Fabric is stuff, space is "not-stuff", so space cannot have a fabric. You might postulate or even find a bit of fabric containing or contained in space, but the hole in your sock cannot be made of wool - it wouldn't be a hole!
 

Offline David Cooper

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #20 on: 27/05/2015 18:12:59 »
Space is stuff - if it wasn't, it wouldn't be able to host directions and distances. Space has properties which are incompatible with it being nothing.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #21 on: 27/05/2015 19:02:24 »
I will start with a well known fact-

 that space is the gaps between matter. We call this a distance.

Don't equate space with distance, or with volume. Space is space and it is still space when it's occupied by matter.

Quote
fact-space has no physical body

Space may be as physical as everything else.

Quote
fact-space can not be destroyed and only occupied

If the universe is expanding, it is possible that space is being created, and that would suggest it can also be destroyed.

Quote
Is CBMR the fabric of space, the Aether ?

No - it's just light moving through space which has been stretched into microwaves by the expansion of space.

Quote
Quote
Space being the bit between stuff, it cannot have a fabric

So would you agree that factual, space is just emptiness?

Alan's assertion is not justified - he cannot prove space has no fabric.

Quote
fact - space has no directions?

Space has properties which maintain directions through its fabric.

Quote
fact-space has no mass?

Unknown - if it all had mass it should try to collapse together, but that could be cancelled out by dark energy.

Quote
fact - humanity can only observe has far as vanishing points of matter in space?

We can observe as far as it is possible for light to reach here from, and no further, but the presence of matter there is not relevant - we can observe a lack of matter.

Quote
so is it fact or not fact that there is time in space?

I know you're keen on the idea of empty space having no time, but there is no empty space - there's stuff going on everywhere all the time. Even if there was empty space though, removing time from it would necessarily remove existence from it too, so it would disappear and the universe would shrink down wherever space is empty to eliminate all the gaps - that would be necessary if empty space was nothing, because nothing cannot have any properties of maintaining distances.

Quote
fact or fiction that space does not have dimensions? (dimensions man made add ons).

The fabric of space has dimensions and may impose the same limitations on all of its content, unless parts of the content can stick outside in other dimensions, in which case there would need to be an external fabric of external space within which the inner fabric resides.

Quote
How can emptiness without Physical body that can not be destroyed, have any sort of existence of a time?

It can't - that's why there must be a fabric.

Quote
space has nothing to curve? (excluding energy and matter)

A fabric can be curved. A space with no fabric cannot do anything - not even contain matter.

I am sorry Colin but yourself is adding fiction to a science fact thread, Alan is giving honest answers of fact.  Some of your answers are not really factual , they may apply when we look at other sections of the short list, but we are trying to establish for now , number 1)space facts.


Quote from: box
How can emptiness without Physical body that can not be destroyed, have any sort of existence of a time?

Quote from: colin
It can't - that's why there must be a fabric

You agree space can have no time, and then explain unless there is a ''fabric'', and go on to say there must be a fabric.  One thing science as learnt me, there is no such thing as it must be, when making un-observed thoughts/theories.

I always say it must be, but without proven facts it is simply hearsay.

Space as no time? fact

The evidence suggests this

Also what makes you think that space will shrink if we removed matter?  I observe when I remove an object from a space, I can place an equal and proportional object in that space, the space does not change.


That is all we observe of space, things that can move through it.


Would you agree Alan that the true factual observed sum of all values of space is zero?

Would you also agree that  values we add are no more than arbitrary uses at the present ''time''?




« Last Edit: 27/05/2015 19:26:36 by Thebox »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #22 on: 27/05/2015 19:07:34 »
Fabric is stuff, space is "not-stuff", so space cannot have a fabric. You might postulate or even find a bit of fabric containing or contained in space, but the hole in your sock cannot be made of wool - it wouldn't be a hole!

Totally agreed with Alan,
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #23 on: 27/05/2015 19:40:30 »


If two photons pass through a bit of space in succession, you have defined time in space.

Not quite accurate , if you add two photons travelling through passive dark space, you are observing the start of timing, would you agree that was more accurately true and factual?

''a particular point or period of time when something happens.''


By definition, when something occurs, for example a star is ''born'', we start to time it, meaning timing of stuff that happens.  We create the ''time'', we add the ''time'' by how we derived ''time''.  Before us, although the state of matter can decay within a period of its own time, there is no one there to monitor it and record the value period.

Is this not a true statement?

We observe the timing /timing periods of all that happens in space?  I would say true fact.  We then call that period increment time.

added own statement of what time is - The fear of death (our past looked for life prolonging potions, they invented time in the fear of death, we are all self aware of death and time our own lives). NO comments need to this statement, just consider ancient Egypt

« Last Edit: 27/05/2015 20:02:36 by Thebox »
 

Online Colin2B

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #24 on: 27/05/2015 23:17:59 »

I am sorry Colin but yourself is adding fiction to a science fact thread, Alan is giving honest answers of fact.  Some of your answers are not really factual , they may apply when we look at other sections of the short list, but we are trying to establish for now , number 1)space facts.

Err, which Colin, who he B?
Not me!

This is first comment to this thread

Not quite accurate , if you add two photons travelling through passive dark space, you are observing the start of timing, would you agree that was more accurately true and factual?

 We then call that period increment time.

Why dark space? Two photons can pass through space which is already lit?

Why 'period increment time'? We already have a term 'elapsed time' why invent another term, unless yours adds to the meaning or is used for a different meaning?
 

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Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #24 on: 27/05/2015 23:17:59 »

 

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