# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: What is science fact, not fiction?  (Read 13502 times)

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #50 on: 30/05/2015 23:37:12 »
..., space itself does not have lines in it.
Consider an OS map. It has contour lines on it, the real landscape does not. But the lines represent something real, height. Space has dimensions, size, otherwise it would be just a single point.

#### PmbPhy

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##### Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #51 on: 01/06/2015 03:09:44 »
Quote from: Thebox
To clarify there is three xyz's?
I don't know what you mean by "three xyz's". To me that sounds like three xyzxyzxyz. If you mean that The Cartesian space whose points have coordinates xyz is a three dimensional space then yes.

Quote from: Thebox
Einstein 3 dimension and time (independent space-time)?
Awkward phrasing. In physics you need to be much clearer than this. Minkowski spacetime has elements called events.  Each event is specified by a place and a time. Therefore and event can be specified as txyz. The formal notation for a position 4-vector is R = (ct, r). Capital bold letters are 4-vectors whereas small bold letters are 3-vectors. Here I put in a factor of "c" in order that each element have the same dimensions. The reason for this particular value will become clearer as you learn relativity.

Quote from: Thebox
Rene Descartes 3 dimensions (timeless)?
Yup.

Quote from: Thebox
finally Minkowski putting time first then dimensions, ( dependant to the observer or object)?
You shouldn't think of time being first. There are various ways to write that. Some authors choose to let it be the fourth component as in xyzt. The order makes no difference.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #52 on: 01/06/2015 10:36:21 »
..., space itself does not have lines in it.
Consider an OS map. It has contour lines on it, the real landscape does not. But the lines represent something real, height. Space has dimensions, size, otherwise it would be just a single point.

My only point is that the lines are virtual lines that we add, the lines itself do not ''exist'', the dimensions of space we virtually add, when talking about existence in space, I mean literal content and not added content which then falls under matter.  Matter being co-ordinate points we use for a guide of space, a mapping system devised by us.

I am not arguing dimensions do not ''exist'' in space with a use by us.

I am simply asking for the true facts of space.

How can there be a dimensional shape of infinite space?

Is it not fact that we can add any dimension of shape to space?

P.s correct I will probably understand more when I have leant more.

added thought - space-time stands still?(dormant)

using all 3 of these definitions in a round about way.

(of an animal) having normal physical functions suspended or slowed down for a period of time; in or as if in a deep sleep.
"dormant butterflies"

(of a plant or bud) alive but not actively growing.

(of a volcano) temporarily inactive.

edit - Matter having normal physical functions suspended or slowed down for a period of time by gravitational influence; in or as if in a deep sleep.  Space-time being inactive until occupied by matter, space time existing but not actively growing unless occupied by matter.

added -  everything logically started from an infinite void, and thought is also limitless, (this is a great puzzle).

added - Could we define ''nothing'' as an infinite void?

''in the beginning there was nothing'', is this the factual conclusion , a singularity?

added- ''time'', started to exist in this singularity?

sorry all quick thoughts today

added- we all know evidentially , for anything to ''expand'', there has to be space to expand into. Evidence is gases, heated metals etc, the expansion being geometric points increase of space.  (increased distance).

The big bang started from a singular point of an infinite void is the only logical conclusion with evidential fact merit of science observation of ''expansion'' of matter into space.

An expanding balloon increases the dimensional volume of space occupied. Each atomic component occupying a singular point of ''zero point space'' allowing the dormant space time to be activated temporary whilst occupied.

« Last Edit: 01/06/2015 13:05:08 by Thebox »

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #53 on: 01/06/2015 14:40:46 »

My only point is that the lines are virtual lines that we add, the lines itself do not ''exist'', the dimensions of space we virtually add, when talking about existence in space, I mean literal content and not added content which then falls under matter.  Matter being co-ordinate points we use for a guide of space, a mapping system devised by us.

I am not arguing dimensions do not ''exist'' in space with a use by us.

I am simply asking for the true facts of space.

How can there be a dimensional shape of infinite space?

Is it not fact that we can add any dimension of shape to space?
OK, I understand what you re saying. However, going back to contour lines. If we lived on a flat plain there would be no height so we would not need contour lines, we only use them because they represent something real. Say we were smart bacteria living between 2 sheets of glass, no height just 2 dimentions, we would not be able to specify a 3rd dimention because it wouldnt exist. So while I agree that we put measurements and virtual lines on space, we wouldnt be able to unless it had the property of 3 dimentions.

Can there be a shape of infinite space. Don't know, beyond my ability to think through that one

#### David Cooper

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##### Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #54 on: 01/06/2015 17:37:35 »
Imagine a two dimensional world floating in a three dimensional space. What is the result of this? Things keep vanishing as they fall out of the 2D plane, and other objects may appear out of "nowhere". If a 3D object passes through the 2D world, the 2D inhabitants would see objects appear and magically grow before they shrink again and vanish. Do we see these things happening in our 3D world with things disappearing as they fall out of our 3D equivalent of a plane and with 4D objects passing through? No. The universe imposes a 3D structure on all of its content. With 3D space you get an inverse square law for things like light which spread out as they travel, so twice the distance means a quarter of the illumination power for a given area. With 4D space it would be an inverse cube law. With 2D space the reduction in force/brightness would be directly proportional to the distance travelled. With a space with an infinite number of dimensions, the brightness would always diminish to zero in a tiny distance due to the number of directions available to it to spread out into.

Proposing that space is nothing and that it can therefore support an infinite number of dimensions leaves you struggling to explain what holds 2D content in a 2D plane and stops all other content from passing through that plane, and likewise 3D content in a 3D block while stopping all other content from passing through that block. You can have an infinite-dimension space to contain everything if you wish, but within that you'll need to have another kind of space with a 3D fabric capable of holding together a 3D universe like ours.
« Last Edit: 01/06/2015 17:40:30 by David Cooper »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #55 on: 01/06/2015 18:34:13 »

My only point is that the lines are virtual lines that we add, the lines itself do not ''exist'', the dimensions of space we virtually add, when talking about existence in space, I mean literal content and not added content which then falls under matter.  Matter being co-ordinate points we use for a guide of space, a mapping system devised by us.

I am not arguing dimensions do not ''exist'' in space with a use by us.

I am simply asking for the true facts of space.

How can there be a dimensional shape of infinite space?

Is it not fact that we can add any dimension of shape to space?
OK, I understand what you re saying. However, going back to contour lines. If we lived on a flat plain there would be no height so we would not need contour lines, we only use them because they represent something real. Say we were smart bacteria living between 2 sheets of glass, no height just 2 dimentions, we would not be able to specify a 3rd dimention because it wouldnt exist. So while I agree that we put measurements and virtual lines on space, we wouldnt be able to unless it had the property of 3 dimentions.

Can there be a shape of infinite space. Don't know, beyond my ability to think through that one

I do not understand where you are getting a ''flat plane'' from, or do I understand why 2d is coming into it.

An infinite space would be isotropic to all observers from any reference frame, ''virtual boxes interlacing and expanding''.  (x*y*z)³=t³=d³  (not factual maths for any young readers benefit).

''up'' is as equal to ''east'' in infinite distance. But east is also up.   There is no true direction.

You either expand your distance of space from a point or you contract your distance to a point.

« Last Edit: 01/06/2015 18:45:41 by Thebox »

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #56 on: 02/06/2015 11:43:48 »
I do not understand where you are getting a ''flat plane'' from, or do I understand why 2d is coming into it.

An infinite space would be isotropic to all observers from any reference frame, ''virtual boxes interlacing and expanding''.  (x*y*z)³=t³=d³  (not factual maths for any young readers benefit).

Flat plane and 2D came from the discussion on space and dimensions.
Not sure where infinite space comes into it, we don't need to postulate infinite to discus dimensions.

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: What is science fact, not fiction?
« Reply #56 on: 02/06/2015 11:43:48 »