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Author Topic: A theory of inverted time dilation  (Read 10583 times)

Offline timey

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Re: A theory of inverted time dilation
« Reply #100 on: 02/08/2015 22:01:01 »
Exactly?

Can I remind you that PmbPhy upbraided you on your Lambert's thread for not specifying the purpose of your maths?  He's a mathematician.

Why do you a) wish to post maths without explaining their purpose, and b) post maths that are relevant to gravity in relation to mass and radius as a pointer to my model of a universe that is not expanding in distance?  I'm missing your underlying purpose, perhaps...? :)

Please remember that mathematics is only a tool.  Maths must have concepts to calculate otherwise the practice is meaningless.  Furthermore, mathematics have perfectly calculated models of concepts that have turned out to 'be' meaningless.  The geocentric earth centred model of the universe for an example.

I would find it a much more interesting conversation to explore the possibility of using the course graining technique discussed in Penrose's book to forward the early universe from the sea of particles that my models singular black hole (that is the end of the old universe and the beginning of the new one) spreads, via its jets, across the distance that subsequently becomes space, course graining through the clumping together of mass and into the mess of black holes predicted by GR, and that I predict go on to merge into one singular black hole to form the next universe, via its jets.

And how it could be considered that the lowest entropy would be found in the sea of particles, discussing how the second law of thermodynamics becomes violated by the fact that the black hole turns clumped matter into the particles that form it's jets, causing a decrease in entropy... unless subsequent seas of particles in subsequent universes have higher entropy by some means than the earlier sea of particles that began the previous universe...perhaps by being larger?

This type of discussion is what I class as interesting.

So...'exactly' what?  If you please...
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: A theory of inverted time dilation
« Reply #101 on: 02/08/2015 23:43:40 »
Pete was quite entitled to do that as I was abusing the mathematics. I later expanded upon that post to state what the ultimate result was. You on the other hand cannot understand the simplest gravitational equation. Yet you are professing to have a theory of time dilation. What are the forces involved in your theory? It certainly isn't gravity. What energies are involved? Is it classical or quantum? If quantum then what are your Hermitian observables? What eigenvectors and eigenvalues do they posses? If classical then what field affects the spacetime metric? And that is just a subset of the questions I could ask.
 

Offline timey

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Re: A theory of inverted time dilation
« Reply #102 on: 03/08/2015 00:45:31 »
And so... I am also entitled to upbraid you because you are abusing my lack of knowledge of mathematics.  Contributions have been made to physics by non-mathematicians.  It is possible to conceptualise without mathematics and mathematics are meaningless unless attached to concepts.

As far as I have been able I 'have' outlined the parameters of my concepts.  My ideas are radical and strange but are based on logic. They rely on no unobserved phenomenon...but ask you to view time as a force that is twinned with gravity.  That time is not a measurement of a state of change but a necessary phenomenon that must be occurring for a state of change to occur.  That time goes slower in a weaker gravity field is a necessary byproduct of these ideas.

Current redshift analysis 'is' based on supposition.
 

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Re: A theory of inverted time dilation
« Reply #103 on: 03/08/2015 18:31:43 »
The problem is you are unclear in your explanations. The questions I posed were probably just as unclear to you from your level of knowledge. Until people have a clear understanding of exactly what you mean you will have little response. People just don't have the time to commit. You could use diagrams for instance. This would also provide a better understanding for others.
 

Offline timey

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Re: A theory of inverted time dilation
« Reply #104 on: 03/08/2015 20:29:08 »
Actually I do understand your questions regarding classical physics versus relativity versus quantum and I also understand Hermitian observables regarding their eigenvectors and eigenvalues.  (If accompanied by explanation of process in words)   You have to understand that if I had the knowledge to apply these mathematical considerations to my own ideas I would not be here on this site asking for mathematical help.

I appreciate that people have limited time.  I would not wish to trouble anyone who is not interested.  But... if you or anyone does care to help, of course this would make me very happy...

Ok, leaving the 'inverted time dilation' aspect out of the picture for the present, I refer you to Richard Tolman's oscillating universe diagram in which he takes into account the second law of thermodynamics.  The diagram consists of a series of ellipses that are progressively increasing in size, joined together like a string of fat sausages.

Tolman's view was that the universe expanded outwards until a situation of collapse to re- congeal back into a singularity and then Big Bang into a new universe.  (Please excuse the oversimplification) The fact of these universes becoming increasingly larger than the last being in adherence with the second law.  (As opposed to the Freidmann cosmological model)

Tolman's diagram is relevant to my piece of logic, but for different reasons which I shall now outline, but firstly I'd like you to dispense with the vision of the ellipse geometry and replace it with diamond shapes presented upside down, increasing in size, with the flat edge/surface of the next diamond placed upon the point of the last.

Looking at a diamond shape, Lets say that the GR prediction of a mess of black holes occurs somewhere 'up' the pointy end and results in a singular black hole at the point.

This singular black hole explodes out all of the particle matter of the last universe, via its jets, into the new universe.  (This is the flat edge/surface of the diamond above) these particles slow down (this is the short angle of the diamond) we have a sea of particles.  (This is the point of this universes lowest entropy) the particles then start clumping together (we are at the beginning of the long angles leading to the diamonds point) as the universes matter further clumps the universes overall spacial properties subsequently reduce until we reach mess of black holes that merge into the singular black hole that begins the next universe.

Sorry JefferyH, I am working from a phone and cannot provide you with an 'actual' diagram of this idea... I can explain how redshift and time fits into this picture next...
« Last Edit: 03/08/2015 22:47:07 by timey »
 

Offline timey

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Re: A theory of inverted time dilation
« Reply #105 on: 08/08/2015 02:23:25 »
I'm now going to add in how the 'phonemenon' of time works within my cosmological model, but first I realize that the diamond shaped geometry of the diagram I described in post above is slightly wrong. The diagram of my cyclic universe should be depicted in simple cone shapes that increase in size with each cone placed pointy end up - on top of the last.

To reiterate,  GR predicts that the universe will progress into a mess of black holes.  (this happens up in the pointy end of the cone).  My model states that this mess of black holes will merge into one black hole, (this is the point of the cone), to spell the end of the current universe and the beginning of the next universe, via its jets, to form a sea of particles. (this is the base of the next cone up). As the particles clump together the universe becomes spatially reduced, (cone reduces to pointy end) Mess of black holes occurrs to merge into one black hole and the next universe.

Obviously the diagram (description of diagram) itself depicts the timeline of the cycle of the universe - but what the phenomenon of time is doing during this cyclic process is another matter, because the rate that time occurs at is subject to change due to changes in the gravity field.

Time dilation is inverted in my model.  Time stops in a 0 gravity field.  Time within the sea of particles runs very slowly and furthermore it is running (more or less) at the same rate throughout this sea of particles because the gravity field is (more or less) equal everywhere.  At the edge of the sea of particles (radius of base of cone) gravity tails off to zero and time stops. Where there is no time nothing can happen and existence cannot exist.  This is what spacially defines the dimensions of the universe.

As particles clump together, time runs faster for these more focused points of gravity.  While time in the spaces vacated by the particles that have clumped together runs slower than it did there when it was populated with particles.  As this situation evolves, the rate of time increases for clumps taking on more mass and the space between the clumps increases because more particles/smaller clumps have vacated it, causing weaker gravity fields that cause time there to go even slower still.

This evolution of clumping causes the spatial dimensions of the universe to reduce until mess of black holes - and the mess of black holes merges into one black hole.  The universe is now contained entirely within the black hole and time, once again, is running at the same rate throughout in this compressed stage of the universes cycle, this being very fast indeed.

I will explain how the redshift phenomenon fits into the picture next post.
« Last Edit: 08/08/2015 03:36:17 by timey »
 

Offline timey

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Re: A theory of inverted time dilation
« Reply #106 on: 21/08/2015 21:34:08 »
Ok, I have said above about my fitting redshift into the picture next, but actually I feel that the phenomenon of the singular black hole that spells the beginning and the end of my models universe's cycle needs further description.

We are familiar with the concept of black holes and their jets.  The jetting appears to happen upon the event of a massive intake of mass.  It is observed that the black hole remains evident in existence when the jets cease.  It is not clear to me if it is thought that these jets are ejecting from within the black hole itself, or if it is thought that these jets are being originated through matter violently dispersing as a result of some factor at the event horizon.  It has been suggested to me that it is the latter, although I cannot logically reason this line of thinking in relation to the strength of the gravitational field at an event horizon, therefore I believe that these jets must, logically speaking, be ejected from a reaction within the black hole.

In my model, when 'all' of the universe becomes contained within a singular black hole, this then constitutes a 'special' situation'.  There is no gravitational counteraction force outside of this phenomenon.   This black hole, unlike a black hole jetting as we observe, whereas because an 'of our era' black hole has a counteraction factor of gravitational counterparts outside of itself, retaining a measure of itself despite jetting, the singular black hole spelling the end of the cycle has no gravitational counter parts and literally turns itself inside out with the greatest of force to create a sea of particles and winks out of existence.
The sea of particles will eventually develop into clumped mass and it will be a very long process indeed before the universe will come to see the formation of further black holes.

Going back to my diagram (description of diagram), let's take my model back through the passage of time and the many cycles of universes each getting smaller in size and look at how the first cycle of this process might have been initiated.

This scenario of the initial formation of my models cyclic universe is looking rather much like Big Bang theory, where the Big Bang is initiated from a point.  My models initial cycle also starts from a point, it just does not expect 'everything' we see today to initiate 'only, from this point.  (I feel the Dirac equation popping particles in and out of existence 'may' be relevant here).

My models initial cycle is very short. A particle pops into existence out of a perfect vacuum, a state vacated of everything including time.  The particle's existence/mass/gravity initiates time.  There is no counteracting gravitational part of this universe, the particle is the universes entirety, it immediately collapses in on itself forming a microscopic black hole which spits out...

Yes, that's right...2 particles, which clump together, form black hole, and out comes... (Edit: or something very similar) ... In any case I am suggesting that mass in relation to the black hole perhaps constitutes a gender transferable, male/female mating type process and the early cycles of the universe are synonymous to an ongoing reactionary process, with each subsequent cycle taking more time to evolve than the last due to increasing size.  And that we are, at present universes cycle, so very, very far removed in the passage of time from the event of this initial cycle, as to be almost entirely unimaginable.
« Last Edit: 22/08/2015 01:53:01 by timey »
 

Offline timey

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Re: A theory of inverted time dilation
« Reply #107 on: 22/08/2015 20:36:07 »
We 'might' see in a cyclic model such as I am describing that the cycles of the universe with regards to the increasing in size follow a Fibonacci pattern, or the primary numbers...

1 becomes 2 times as big, becomes 3 times as big, 5 times as, 7 times, 11, etc...

Erm, well (raises eyebrows)...I quite liked it :)
 

Offline timey

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Re: A theory of inverted time dilation
« Reply #108 on: 29/08/2015 13:46:37 »
Lee Smolin's book "The Trouble with Physics" page 90 -91

Quote:
"The first crucial result connecting quantum theory to black holes was made in 1973 by Jacob Bekenstien, a young Israeli graduate student of John Archibald Wheeler's at Princeton.  He made the amazing discovery that black holes have entropy.  Entropy is a measure of disorder, and there is a famous law, called the second law of thermodynamics, holding that the entropy of a closed system can never decrease.  Berkenstien worried that if he took a box filled with a hot gas - which would have a lot of entropy, because the motion of the gas molecules was random and disordered - and threw it into a black hole, the entropy of the universe would seem to decrease, because the gas could never be recovered.  To save the second law, Berkenstien proposed that the black hole must itself have an entropy, which would increase when the box of gas fell in, so that the total entropy of the universe would never decrease.  Working out some simple examples, he was able to show that the entropy of a black hole must be proportional to the area of the horizon that surrounds it.
This introduced a puzzle.  Entropy is a measure of randomness, and random motion is heat.  So shouldn't a black hole also have a temperature?  A year later, in 1974, Stephen Hawking was able to show that a black hole must indeed have a temperature.  He was also able to fix the precise proportionality between the area of the black holes horizon and its entropy.
There is another aspect of the temperature of black holes predicted by Hawking, which will be important to us later, and it's that the temperature of a black hole is inversely proportional to its mass.  This means that black holes behave differently from familiar objects.  To get most things to heat up, you have to put energy into them.  We fuel a fire.  Black holes behave in the opposite way.  If you put energy, or mass, in, you make the black hole more massive - it cools off.
This mystery has since challenged every attempt to make a quantum theory of gravity: How can we explain the entropy and temperature of black holes from first principles?  Berkenstien and Hawking treated the black hole as a classical fixed background within which quantum particles moved, and their arguments were based on consistency with known laws.  They did not describe the black hole as a quantum-mechanical system, because that can be done only in a quantum theory of spacetime.  So the challenge for any quantum theory of gravity is to give us a deeper understanding of Berkenstien's entropy and Hawking's temperature."
Unquote.

In relation to this particular sentence:

""the temperature of a black hole is inversely proportional to its mass.""

When considering that to view events that are happening in a rate of time that is extremely different than the rate of time that you experience yourself in your reference frame, it would be rendered impossible to witness the entirety of those events occurring in that more extreme rate of time due to literally not 'having' the time within which to view.

A black hole that becomes bigger, becomes more extreme in its rate of time and we will witness less of its events.  It will actually be much hotter but will appear cooler.
The path of logic here might follow that time could be inversely proportional in relation to mass, as is gravity.  But as the black hole increases its size, we see that the temperature drops inversely proportional to the increase in size.  Therefore time must be changing its rate to a different tune, leading me to looking at time changing its rate to the dimensions of, (is it the metric), the equation that increases distances.

When looking at redshift in relation to this logic it becomes clear that as speed 'is' distance and speed and distance are time related, that any changes in the rate of time will affect a distance measurement!

(Edit: Admittedly, I am having trouble visualising the sliding scales between mass, temperature and time, so I leave it an open book on the possibility of time being inversely proportional to mass, but there 'is' something that mathematically bothers me in relation to the opposites of an increasing mass and a drop in temperature on a sliding scale...maybe it will come to me later)
« Last Edit: 29/08/2015 13:59:33 by timey »
 

Offline timey

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Re: A theory of inverted time dilation
« Reply #109 on: 31/08/2015 15:20:06 »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

Quoted from link above:
"Rather than exceeding the speed of light within a local reference frame, a spacecraft would traverse distances by contracting space in front of it and expanding space behind it, resulting in effective faster-than-light travel. Objects cannot accelerate to the speed of light within normal spacetime; instead, the Alcubierre drive shifts space around an object so that the object would arrive at its destination faster than light would in normal space.[1]

Although the metric proposed by Alcubierre is mathematically valid (in that the proposal is consistent with the Einstein field equations), it may not be physically meaningful, in which case a drive will not be possible."
Unquote

(I have actually explained the following logic in previous posts but as I cannot be bothered to trawl back and identify which posts these were, it follows that you will be even less inclined, so I will explain again.)

My model proposes that the metric is not a phenomenon of geometry and that the metric is in fact purely a gravitational time dilation effect.  This identifying GR's interpretation of time dilation as misconceived, (is it 'relativistic gamma'? ...struggling with terminology here), and stating this minuscule increase in the rate of time at elevation as a mass near mass phenomenon, rather than the result of radius location conditions.

My model proposes that a rocket leaving a gravitational field will experience mass near mass effects that will increase the rate of its time by a minuscule amount, and that as it becomes less affected by the greater mass, this increase in its rate of time will drop.  This being because it is travelling through reference frames of slower and slower time.

Light, remaining at 'the speed of light' - when travelling through these reference frames - covers 'less distance' in these slower rates of time.  Essentially, the speed of light is going slower.

The rocket, maintaining its speed of x mph - this defined by the rate of time in earths gravitational field - is now pushing up to a higher percentage of the speed that light is travelling at in those reference frames.  As a result of travelling at a higher percentage of the speed of light, Special Relativity effects will kick in at proportionally higher percentages causing the rocket to experience its time as even slower.  Although the rocket will experience a length contraction of its journey from its own point of view, the further slowing of its own experience of its time will make the journey appear longer in distance.

If the rocket can reduce its speed proportionally to the slowing in the rates of time found within the reference frames it is travelling through, it will avoid the increase in the percentage of its speed in relation to the slower speeds of light in those reference frames, resulting in the slowing effects of Special Relativity being controllable.

All I have done is make an addition to the equivalence principle stating that the speed of light is only constant to the ratio of a length of a second.

So...in my model, FTL by current thinking standards would be entirely possible.  The mechanics of it wouldn't actually be that a rocket would be travelling faster than the speed of light though, just that the geometry of distance that one imagines there, is not there, and it would be the 'time distance' that we are travelling faster.  And...in case you might of missed it...yes that's right, just by quite simply travelling at 'slower' speeds.
« Last Edit: 31/08/2015 16:37:01 by timey »
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: A theory of inverted time dilation
« Reply #110 on: 04/09/2015 22:11:57 »
The force of gravity declines sharply as an object moves away from the source. It becomes negligible very quickly if we think of distance in terms of the first few multiples of the objects radius. So that even before moving any significant distance away your theory of time dilation effects would be apparent in a system such as our solar system. Since spacecraft have already navigated the solar system we would already have witnessed these effects. The time dilation on earth is marginal in reality. It takes a very dense object to produce a significant effect. We are likely quite near to the lowest value of time dilation already.
 

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Re: A theory of inverted time dilation
« Reply #111 on: 04/09/2015 23:56:55 »
As far as I am aware there has been no time dilation data recorded on crafts or probes moving out of the vicinity of our solar system, or indeed when moving in and out of the vicinity of bodies of mass in our solar system other than our own.

Because the time dilation effects predicted and confirmed by GR are minuscule, and are predicted, and have been proven to reach a zenith beyond which escalation is supposed to tail off, and that time out in deep space, so I have been led to believe, does not occur at a proportionally faster rate...  it is my 'idea' that GR has time dilation misconceived, that what GR is calculating as time dilation is in fact a mass near mass effect, and that 'actual' gravitational time dilation has consequently been overlooked.

Yes, I understand the consequences of the inverse square law.  I am not suggesting that the rate of time drops off or speeds up to the tune of the inverse square law to echo gravity.  I believe there are indications in the fact of the temperature of a black hole dropping inversely to the increase in its mass that disallow this, this being on the basis of time being stopped in a 0 gravity field, although maths is needed there.  I can't do it in my head.  I believe that gravitational time dilation may be connected to the metric, and that the metric is not a phenomenon of distance in geometry, but is comprised of distance in time.

I also believe that there may be indications of gravitational time dilation on a microscopic level in the delay rates between the particles currently being discussed at CERN.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/subatomic-particles-appear-defy-standard-100950001.html#W4wF3Nr

Also that Planks h constant 'may' be mathematically flawed by the use of Planck's inadequate time measurement in direct relation to a factor of gravitational time dilation in the microscopic region.

Redshift is based on supposition.  It is accepted that the Pound Rebka experiment is proof that the effect does exist, but it 'is' speed that determines distance.  And yes, Jeff, what I am saying is that my model states that its all a lot closer together in 'distance of geometry, than it appears and than we think it is...
 

Offline timey

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Re: A theory of inverted time dilation
« Reply #112 on: 05/09/2015 01:12:38 »
I am not suggesting that the rate of time drops off or speeds up to the tune of the inverse square law to echo gravity.  I believe there are indications in the fact of the temperature of a black hole dropping inversely to the increase in its mass that disallow this, this being on the basis of time being stopped in a 0 gravity field, although maths is needed there.  I can't do it in my head.  I believe that gravitational time dilation may be connected to the metric, and that the metric is not a phenomenon of distance in geometry, but is comprised of distance in time.

To explain this a little more thoroughly, I feel that the rate of time that we view a black hole from  ie: an earth second, in relation to the rate that a second will be occurring at for the black hole, (hopefully to be determined by such considerations) in relation to the mass differences between earth and the black hole, will prove interesting in relation to the temperature of the black hole, and in particular to the drop in temperature a black hole experiences in relation to an increase in its mass.  This being based on time being stopped in a 0 gravity field.
« Last Edit: 05/09/2015 01:16:23 by timey »
 

Offline timey

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Re: A theory of inverted time dilation
« Reply #113 on: 05/09/2015 01:42:21 »
Since spacecraft have already navigated the solar system we would already have witnessed these effects. The time dilation on earth is marginal in reality. It takes a very dense object to produce a significant effect. We are likely quite near to the lowest value of time dilation already.

Furthermore, I am suggesting that we have in fact already experienced the effects of my time dilation theory while travelling both the solar system and beyond, in that our crafts that we have sent across space have been subject to travelling vast 'distances in time' in the belief that these are 'distances of geometry'.  My model suggests that it is a very simple matter to avoid travelling these vast 'distances in time' and that the 'distance of the geometry' of space could be travelled much more quickly.

""We are quite likely near to the lowest value of time dilation already""

Not if the metric is linked to the strength of a gravity field.

 

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Re: A theory of inverted time dilation
« Reply #114 on: 05/09/2015 10:38:12 »
I am not suggesting that the rate of time drops off or speeds up to the tune of the inverse square law to echo gravity.  I believe there are indications in the fact of the temperature of a black hole dropping inversely to the increase in its mass that disallow this, this being on the basis of time being stopped in a 0 gravity field, although maths is needed there.  I can't do it in my head.  I believe that gravitational time dilation may be connected to the metric, and that the metric is not a phenomenon of distance in geometry, but is comprised of distance in time.

To explain this a little more thoroughly, I feel that the rate of time that we view a black hole from  ie: an earth second, in relation to the rate that a second will be occurring at for the black hole, (hopefully to be determined by such considerations) in relation to the mass differences between earth and the black hole, will prove interesting in relation to the temperature of the black hole, and in particular to the drop in temperature a black hole experiences in relation to an increase in its mass.  This being based on time being stopped in a 0 gravity field.

And perhaps to further explain the logic...

If a black holes rate of time is running at say a 60% difference to our own rate of time, this difference according to my theory being a faster rate of time than ours, although the same would be true for a time running at a rate 60% slower than our own... We would only be able to view 40% of the events occurring at the black hole.

My model suggests that the black hole that takes on more mass/energy, experiences a rise in temperature.  We already have data that suggests how this may work proportionally.  What we observe from our view point is that as the black hole takes on mass it's temperature drops to the tune of the inverse square law.  I am suggesting that this is a feature of time dilation.  As the percentage of the black holes rate of time increases in relation to ours due to the increase in its mass, we are viewing a lesser percentage of the events of the black hole as a result.

Therefore the fact of the temperature appearing to drop to the tune of the inverse square law in proportion to the increase in mass becomes a significant factor in establishing what time dilation might be doing mathematically when relating this data back to how temperature increases proportionally with the addition of mass/energy.
 

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Re: A theory of inverted time dilation
« Reply #114 on: 05/09/2015 10:38:12 »

 

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