# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Is there a simple way to detect gravitational waves?  (Read 4463 times)

#### jccc

• Hero Member
• Posts: 990
##### Is there a simple way to detect gravitational waves?
« on: 03/06/2015 04:12:08 »
in vacuum chamber, thin line hang 2 bells. ring 1 bell, measure temperature of the 2 bells.

if both bells get hotter, that means gravitational wave is working?

« Last Edit: 04/06/2015 21:31:09 by chris »

#### PmbPhy

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2760
• Thanked: 38 times
##### Re: Simple way to detect gravitational wave
« Reply #1 on: 03/06/2015 04:34:21 »
Quote from: jccc
in vacuum chamber, thin line hang 2 bells. ring 1 bell, measure temperature of the 2 bells.

if both bells get hotter, that means gravitational wave is working?
Nope. Not at all. Gravitational waves cannot heat anything up whatsoever.

#### jccc

• Hero Member
• Posts: 990
##### Re: Simple way to detect gravitational wave
« Reply #2 on: 03/06/2015 11:33:15 »
are you sure captain right?

show me wiki or test result?

#### jccc

• Hero Member
• Posts: 990
##### Re: Simple way to detect gravitational wave
« Reply #3 on: 03/06/2015 12:15:53 »
don't have the means to real test. just thinking.

if bell 1 keeps ringing, its temperature should be increasing, then stay at maximum.

bell 2 should feel gravity wave produced by bell 1 and heat up, the closer the hotter. 1/r^2

or you can say bell 1 gives heat radiation to bell 2 to heat it up?

now if we replace electricity with laser to heat up bell 1, do we get same result?

#### jccc

• Hero Member
• Posts: 990
##### Re: Simple way to detect gravitational wave
« Reply #4 on: 03/06/2015 18:02:33 »
wish i have the tools

could be more fun then double slit

#### syhprum

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3770
• Thanked: 14 times
##### Re: Simple way to detect gravitational wave
« Reply #5 on: 03/06/2015 22:20:06 »
Gravitational waves carry energy, not much but not zero if something absorbs this energy presumably it heats up a little bit !.

#### PmbPhy

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2760
• Thanked: 38 times
##### Re: Simple way to detect gravitational wave
« Reply #6 on: 03/06/2015 23:49:38 »
Quote from: jccc
are you sure captain right?
Yes.

Quote from: jccc
show me wiki or test result?
No. I see no point in doing that. There's simply northing in existence in gravitational waves to heat matter up. And there have not been any gravitational waves detected yet.

#### PmbPhy

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2760
• Thanked: 38 times
##### Re: Simple way to detect gravitational wave
« Reply #7 on: 03/06/2015 23:52:30 »
Quote from: syhprum
Gravitational waves carry energy, not much but not zero if something absorbs this energy presumably it heats up a little bit !.
There's nothing that will couple the gravitational wave to excite the vibrational states of molecules enough for there to be any increase in heat. All that happens when a gravitational wave passes by an object is that the metric changes making the distances between points inside the object vibrate. The vibrations cease when the gravitational wave passes by.

#### jccc

• Hero Member
• Posts: 990
##### Re: Simple way to detect gravitational wave
« Reply #8 on: 04/06/2015 00:24:25 »
2 bells are so close, the wave should be detectable? stronger than the waves from outer space?

when bell 1 is vibrating, it does produce gravitational wave right?

if so, bell 2 will feel the wave right?

if so, got be a way to detect it.

does music/sound able to heat up a bell?

#### evan_au

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3947
• Thanked: 227 times
##### Re: Simple way to detect gravitational wave
« Reply #9 on: 04/06/2015 12:30:10 »
Quote from: jccc
on a thin line hang 2 bells. ring 1 bell...
Why do you hang the bells on a line? If you ring one bell, the line will start to sway, and the second bell will start to ring, and will heat up slightly.

This is not detection of gravitational waves, this is a variant of the coupled pendulum.

I have seen a real gravitational wave detector; they have elaborate mechanical and electronic systems to isolate their mirrors from all external vibrations, so they can have some slight chance of detecting gravitational waves. You certainly would not hang two mirrors from the same string!

Quote
when bell 1 is vibrating, it does produce gravitational wave right
Yes, but the energy carried away is so tiny that we could never hope to detect it.

If you take two pulsars, and throw them together into a tightly orbiting pair, the gravitational radiation is sufficient to be detectable by measuring the change in orbit of the two pulsars over many years.

You need to think bigger about the masses you are swinging around in this experiment - by about the ratio of the mass of a bell and the mass of the Sun.

#### jccc

• Hero Member
• Posts: 990
##### Re: Simple way to detect gravitational wave
« Reply #10 on: 04/06/2015 13:04:30 »
2 lines hang 2 balls, they are separate.

small mass but small distance, maybe detectable.

#### jccc

• Hero Member
• Posts: 990
##### Re: Simple way to detect gravitational wave
« Reply #11 on: 04/06/2015 15:16:58 »
atoms in our cells are vibrating all the time, do they give off gravitational waves?

hot gasses on the sun are vibrating faster, do they give off gravitational waves?

#### jccc

• Hero Member
• Posts: 990
##### Re: Simple way to detect gravitational wave
« Reply #12 on: 04/06/2015 18:32:26 »
let there be light, and there was light.

as long as mass is vibrating, it gives off gravitational wave.

atoms able to vibrate at higher frequency than bell, produce visible gravitational waves.

fair enough?

#### evan_au

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3947
• Thanked: 227 times
##### Re: Is there a simple way to detect gravitational waves?
« Reply #13 on: 05/06/2015 13:02:28 »
Electromagnetism is a far more powerful force than gravitation.

Electromagnetic waves (light) are far more powerful than gravitational waves.
• A single atom can produce detectable electromagnetic waves, but even a huge planet like Jupiter cannot produce detectable gravitational waves.
• Single-celled algae can detect light, but so far a \$300M detector has come up with no confirmed detection of gravitational waves.

So, as for previous posts on this subject, the idea that light is a gravitational wave belongs in the New Theories forum.

#### jccc

• Hero Member
• Posts: 990
##### Re: Is there a simple way to detect gravitational waves?
« Reply #14 on: 05/06/2015 13:15:53 »
new theory or old theory don't matter, correct theory is what we after.

the vibration energy can be calculated. because the em force between the light source and target can be calculated, as long we know the masses/charges, frequency of the vibration, atoms' distance.

hot gasses on the sun do vibrate, where that energy go? emit photons?

#### jccc

• Hero Member
• Posts: 990
##### Re: Is there a simple way to detect gravitational waves?
« Reply #15 on: 05/06/2015 13:35:22 »
Electromagnetism is a far more powerful force than gravitation.

Electromagnetic waves (light) are far more powerful than gravitational waves.
• A single atom can produce detectable electromagnetic waves, but even a huge planet like Jupiter cannot produce detectable gravitational waves.
• Single-celled algae can detect light, but so far a \$300M detector has come up with no confirmed detection of gravitational waves.

So, as for previous posts on this subject, the idea that light is a gravitational wave belongs in the New Theories forum.

how a single atom produce em waves? vibrating? or electron in the atom change orbit?

jupiter does not vibrate, no quake, therefore it produces no gravitational wave.

Thanks!

#### Spring Theory

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 29
• Thanked: 1 times
##### Re: Is there a simple way to detect gravitational waves?
« Reply #16 on: 06/06/2015 11:36:31 »
Gravitational waves have already been discovered…they are photons.

#### jccc

• Hero Member
• Posts: 990
##### Re: Is there a simple way to detect gravitational waves?
« Reply #17 on: 06/06/2015 12:54:47 »
Gravitational waves have already been discovered…they are photons.

gravitational waves are em force pauses, photons are particles.

not the same thing.

how do you think?

#### jerrygg38

• Hero Member
• Posts: 728
• Thanked: 19 times
##### Re: Is there a simple way to detect gravitational waves?
« Reply #18 on: 07/06/2015 12:57:11 »
Quote from: jccc
in vacuum chamber, thin line hang 2 bells. ring 1 bell, measure temperature of the 2 bells.

if both bells get hotter, that means gravitational wave is working?
Nope. Not at all. Gravitational waves cannot heat anything up whatsoever.

That is true for stationary gravitational waves. However the moon spins around the earth and this effects the tides. The application of the moving waves causes motion and heat in the waters. In addition the Earth's gravitational waves causes eddy currents within the moon which eventually caused it to be phase locked with the earth so that only one face of the moon shows.

#### jerrygg38

• Hero Member
• Posts: 728
• Thanked: 19 times
##### Re: Is there a simple way to detect gravitational waves?
« Reply #19 on: 07/06/2015 13:16:19 »
atoms in our cells are vibrating all the time, do they give off gravitational waves?

hot gasses on the sun are vibrating faster, do they give off gravitational waves?

To use Bill Clinton's expression modified ":What does giving off mean?"
Gravitational waves are caused by the loss of mass per unit time. This converts physical mass into dark energy and the universe expands. The vibration of objects is a property such that you get vibrating gravitational fields which do have effects. It could be argued that these motions radiate the dot-waves over time. An electron is composed of 5.75037E41 dot-waves as per my Dot-wave theory. Therefore a vibrating electron could slowly radiate theses dot-waves. Likewise the proton is composed of 1.055854E45 dot waves.
You raise a valid question which I have not thought about. My work is mostly about writing the equations of the universe and the amount of dot-waves within it. Most of my work is done in my sleep and my dreams. I wake up and write down the equations. Then I study my dreams and try to understand them. The problem is that I have an engineering mind while we are dealing with multi-dimensional concepts. However the basic equations of the universe are simple algebraic expressions. In any event what you say makes sense. The vibrations within the universe will cause it to radiate dot-waves per unit time.

#### jccc

• Hero Member
• Posts: 990
##### Re: Is there a simple way to detect gravitational waves?
« Reply #20 on: 07/06/2015 13:32:44 »
see if you can write right equation for atom first.

not even sure about atomic structure, the rest of science is unsure indeed.

#### jccc

• Hero Member
• Posts: 990
##### Re: Is there a simple way to detect gravitational waves?
« Reply #21 on: 22/06/2015 19:15:18 »
Electromagnetism is a far more powerful force than gravitation.

Electromagnetic waves (light) are far more powerful than gravitational waves.
• A single atom can produce detectable electromagnetic waves, but even a huge planet like Jupiter cannot produce detectable gravitational waves.
• Single-celled algae can detect light, but so far a \$300M detector has come up with no confirmed detection of gravitational waves.

So, as for previous posts on this subject, the idea that light is a gravitational wave belongs in the New Theories forum.

how a single atom produce em waves? vibrating? or electron in the atom change orbit?

jupiter does not vibrate, no quake, therefore it produces no gravitational wave.

Thanks!

according to wiki, when a mass is accelerating it produces gravitational wave.

the hot atoms of the sun are constantly vibrating producing gravitational waves.

where that energy/force goes?

#### jccc

• Hero Member
• Posts: 990
##### Re: Is there a simple way to detect gravitational waves?
« Reply #22 on: 23/06/2015 11:02:27 »
the gravity between any 2 masses m1 and m1, F=G x /m1m2/r^2.

the gravitational wave strength is proportional to mass, also proportional to the atoms vibrating frequency.

only atoms able to vibrate at such high frequency. to accelerate a mass of 1 gram to vibrate at 10^14 times per second will need a lot of energy, we don't have the technology yet.

gravitational radiation is hard to detect? maybe just misunderstood?

#### PmbPhy

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2760
• Thanked: 38 times
##### Re: Is there a simple way to detect gravitational waves?
« Reply #23 on: 23/06/2015 13:10:26 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
Gravitational waves are caused by the loss of mass per unit time.
That is incorrect. Gravitational waves are caused by a time varying distribution of mass such as a binary star system where two stars are orbiting each other. There is certainly no "loss of mass per unit time" in cases but the distribution of mass does vary since the matter is accelerating. For a precise statement of the sources of gravitational waves please see: http://www.ligo.org/science/GW-Sources.php

Quote from: jerrygg38
This converts physical mass into dark energy and the universe expands.
That is incorrect as well. There is no known process for which mass cannot be converted into dark energy. Why did you think so?

Quote from: jerrygg38
The vibration of objects is a property such that you get vibrating gravitational fields which do have effects. It could be argued that these motions radiate the dot-waves over time.
I see you're still using a term that has no meaning in physics and for which you have constantly refused to define yourself. Would you care to define it for us or explain why you keep ignoring my request to do so? Or will you once again ignore this request and go on with business as usual?

Quote from: jerrygg38
An electron is composed of 5.75037E41 dot-waves as per my Dot-wave theory.
More nonsense given that you refuse to define what you mean by "dot-wave." People who refuse to define their terms are crackpots.

Quote from: jerrygg38
My work is mostly about writing the equations of the universe and the amount of dot-waves within it.
You haven't posted even one equation in this forum that I've see. Care to try now?

Quote from: jerrygg38
Most of my work is done in my sleep and my dreams. I wake up and write down the equations.
You can't expect us to take you seriously when you say things like that. It's very vague and could be taken to mean that you'd like people to think that the equation was impressive, complicated and physically meaningful when in fact, if you actually did have such a dream, it might have been trivial such as y = ax + b. I'm not saying this to be rude whatsoever since I have no idea who you are. It's just that we get a lot of pretenders and wannabes who come in here putting on airs and trying to impress us.

Quote from: jerrygg38
The problem is that I have an engineering mind ...
I don't understand. What is that supposed to mean? Are you actually an engineer?

Quote from: jerrygg38
.. while we are dealing with multi-dimensional concepts.
So what? All of physics deals with multi-dimensional concepts. Even the kinematics that a freshman physics student takes has that.

Quote from: jerrygg38
However the basic equations of the universe are simple algebraic expressions.
That is completely false. E.g. Einstein's field equations, i.e. the equations which are used, among many other uses, to describe the shape and evolution of the universe are differential tensor equations.

I'm sure we ALL await your definition of this "dot-waves" that you keep talking about but consistently refuse to define.

#### jeffreyH

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3770
• Thanked: 47 times
• The graviton sucks
##### Re: Is there a simple way to detect gravitational waves?
« Reply #24 on: 23/06/2015 17:27:49 »
Here is an idea to detect gravitons, because that is what it is all about after all. In a vacuum place a well engineered nano-slinky that is held at its topmost point and left to hang under tension. Have a photon array so that all photons deflect from the surface of the slinky. The slinky will need to be WELL isolated from external vibration. In this case any vibration up or down should be due to the influence of gravity. There may even be waves across the coils due to the distribution of force carriers. This can also be modified by altitude. When photons miss the surface of the coils they are then detected and a time dependent picture can be built up of the motion of the coils.

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: Is there a simple way to detect gravitational waves?
« Reply #24 on: 23/06/2015 17:27:49 »